American TVs

[Akir]

All right, i have a question. Why are we americans so stupid with our TVs!? None of the "lo-def" TVs have any kind of RGB in any form. The only TV out there that has RGB is HI definition, which costs rediculus amounts of money. Even if you do buy one, you get (WTF!?) Composite RGB, which annoys me for having to plug in 5 cables. I would have enjoyed an un-composite RGB cable a little more (For the sake of political correctness), but nowadays, people are too stupid to figure out even where the 5 cables go (EVEN THOUGH THEY"RE CLEARLY LABLED!!!) At least if you have an extra $5,000 lying around the house, you can get a plasma or LCD TV to get VGA. But even then, You don't get sound!!!

Why can't we all use SCART?

[NFG]

You're confused.  First of all, SCART is a horrible standard with a terrible connector that's nearly impossible to plug in with your arm around the TV.

There's no such thing as "composite RGB" as far as I'm aware, do you mean component video?  And why doesn't this plasma TV have sound?  Is it broken?

[Aidan]

Some plasma displays are exactly that, displays. No audio capability. Well, that's what you get for buying a display.

SCART is actually a nifty idea, but badly implemented. For a start, there's no latching on the connector, and it's prone to falling out.

Secondly, there's a bunch of pins that are not well defined as single use, so you can't send both RGB and S-Video over the same cable, as there's overlap.

Thirdly, the SCART connector is /huge/, and usually in a difficult to reach place. The connector could easily have been half to size and still worked well without handling difficulties.

Fourthly, SCART can only handle stereo audio, there's no provision for digital audio in any way.

[Hojo_Norem]

SCART is actually a nifty idea, but badly implemented. For a start, there's no latching on the connector, and it's prone to falling out.

Secondly, there's a bunch of pins that are not well defined as single use, so you can't send both RGB and S-Video over the same cable, as there's overlap.

Thirdly, the SCART connector is /huge/, and usually in a difficult to reach place. The connector could easily have been half to size and still worked well without handling difficulties.

But what do you expect?  SCART is a French invention after all!  :lol:

But o the other hand, one you gain a little experience in handeling scarts, plugging them in 'blind' becomes a little easier and you can buy positive locking scarts which don't fall out as easly, but arent as easy to plug in. (I should know, I fit Tvs for a living.)

[Sumez]

I don't think there's anything wrong with scart as a standard.
Well, it's a problem having to send the voltage to certain pins for various features, but if you TV has decent configuration possibilities, it shouldn't be a problem. And who'd want to send S-video and RGB at the same time?

The only real problem is the damn plug. I hate fiddling with it on the back of my TV, and I hate myself for not having gotten an extension cable yet.

[Hojo_Norem]

Rather than getting a extention cable it would be a better investment to buy a decent quality SCART expander.  Mine is a automitic 5 input (4 SCARTs, fully switched for RGB, 1 AV with s-video) + Digital audio made by Vivanco.  I can't remember the model number but is cost me �40 and needs its own mains power supply.  But its worth it!  

[Sumez]

Might be the better solution to you, but I have way more than 5 scart cables to switch between, so it would just be a more expensive and problematic solution to me.

[Aidan]

who'd want to send S-video and RGB at the same time?

It means that you no longer need to worry about a special RGB cable version a special SVideo cable. It also means that manufacturers could produce a single cable that provides RGB, SVideo and Composite. That way, the display device could decide on which format it could support and behave accordingly.

[Akir]

I made the mistake of saying "Composite RBG" in stead of "Component RBG." 'MI bad (And yes, that IS how you spell it!)

The shape of the connector doesn't matter to me, and I don't mind it only having sterio sound, since no TV in america (Or, as I'm shure, in any other country) has anything else then sterio or mono sound. As for the comment about not having any sound, I was referring to the fact that VGA is video, not audo.

[phreak97]

what are you talking about no tv has surround, i was admiring them in the store the other week... there are some nice tv's out there which have surround inputs and speaker outputs.. you just run wires from the back of the tv to the speakers.. and yes the inputs are there as rca plugs.. however scart is non-existant here (yay for australia;_;)

[Sumez]

That way, the display device could decide on which format it could support and behave accordingly.

I can see your point, but it doesn't really make sense, because why would you want to use S-video when you might as well just use RGB, which is better? The addition of possible S-video is fine, because then you can connect S-video cables to a SCART adapter and use that in the scart TV, but if your device outputs RGB to begin with, there's no reason to even worry about S-video.

[Endymion]

Sure there is--what if you take your system to another person's house and their SCART TV can't do RGB?

[Sumez]

Why would anyone make a SCART tv that takes S-video through the SCART plug, but not RGB? If there's only one SCART port, it's RGB. I've never heard of the opposite.

[Endymion]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there are SCART TVs out there that can not take RGB.

[Sumez]

And those take S-Video?
I'm not saying it's not possible, because of course it is, but it doesn't make sense to me.
SCART is made with RGB in mind. Of course you can use it for S-video, all you need is the TV and the cable to support it, but there's no reason to not use RGB.
For every new, fancy video standard there is invented, there will always be inferior standards that are not supported. It's like criticising a VGA plug for not supporting composite video.

[Aidan]

In my experience so far, yes, if they don't accept RGB, then they do tend to accept S-Video.

It's in no way like critising VGA for not supporting composite. The VGA standard is pretty explicit about exactly what is required, down to the registers needed to program the controller.

SCART was designed to support S-Video, composite and RGB. The issue with RGB and S-Video is that they tend to be mutually exclusive. Instead, you get a cable that can do RGB and composite.  

[Endymion]

Sumez--we aren't saying that RGB isn't desirable, we're just saying that you should tell TV manufacturers that. Moreover, if you've followed the conversation, Aidan has been saying that SCART could have been made to work uniformly, in such a way that it wouldn't matter if you had an RGB or S-video only SCART, use the same cable on either and it could work, but it hasn't been made this way.

[Computolio]

You're confused.  First of all, SCART is a horrible standard with a terrible connector that's nearly impossible to plug in with your arm around the TV.

There's no such thing as "composite RGB" as far as I'm aware, do you mean component video?  And why doesn't this plasma TV have sound?  Is it broken?

   You completely forgot that it is literally not possible to find the connectors in the US and a living hell to try and import any.

[Endymion]

I get all of mine for a pittance on ebay. There are loads of sellers who are very willing to ship to the USA, for the couple of pounds they're worth I never even get hit with a duty.

[Akir]

You completely forgot that it is literally not possible to find the connectors in the US and a living hell to try and import any.

I'm trying to say that SCART should be a standard in the US too. If it was a standard, the plugs would be easy to find.

And about the "Some SCART TVs don't support RBG," That's Bull doodles. All TVs must have the video decoded to Red, Green, And blue in order to display on CRTs, Plasmas, Projections, projectors, and most LCD dusplays. All of the guts in a TV are for Power management, Sound (May or may not have DSP), Configuration (Like Brightrness, White ballence), Cable and Braudcast tuning, and Video decoding.

[school_atom]

We now have component, and its (almost) just as good. Only problem is the ancient consoles us nerds constantly repair and modify to continue working dont output component. RGB is considered so great by everybody here because thats what all CRT monitors accept natively. Its pretty darn pure. But since computers actually deal with digital, and not analogue rgb, I think DVI will be the new drool over standard. When the programmer puts the rgb value FF,FF,FF into his game, guess what? FF,FF,FF is sent over that cable and then sent directly to the pixel for 99.9999999% accuracy.

[Guest]

Actually, DVI  is RGB, but with some data channels. I don't think that this is likely to catch on. Hey, I was right About the TurbographX.

[Endymion]

And about the "Some SCART TVs don't support RBG," That's Bull doodles.

1. You should tell that to the SCART plug. If it does not have RGB in it, then you are not getting RGB into the TV. That's what we mean when we say not all SCART TVs support RGB. There are lots of TVs that have SCART, but you won't be connecting RGB to said SCART.

2. Your definition of "supporting RGB" is so broad that if we were to apply it, then every TV including NTSC ones without SCART or any input for RGB "support" it, which is true only if you break down what's happening in the picture tube, but plain silly when so many of these millions of TVs do not have any SCART or even RGB input from outside sources.

3. Just FYI, we like to call it RGB around here.

[NFG]

Actually, DVI is RGB, but with some data channels. I don't think that this is likely to catch on. Hey, I was right About the TurbographX.

Actually the DVI standard allows for both Digital or Analogue.  As for being right about the TurboGrafx, you can't even spell it.

[Aidan]

I think DVI will be the new drool over standard. When the programmer puts the rgb value FF,FF,FF into his game, guess what? FF,FF,FF is sent over that cable and then sent directly to the pixel for 99.9999999% accuracy.

Or munged by a badly designed scaler. Or perhaps just displayed in the typical CRT fashion of 'hope the beam hits where we want it to'. Unless everyone is running LCD displays, it'll still be analog. Personally, I'd settle for 90% accuracy.

[atom]

Yeah, it bugs me that Flatpanels use VGA when they can take most advantage of DVI and vice versa. Fact is, the market is definitley going towards LCD displays. I predict both XBOX 2 and PS3 will have some sort of DVI output. Nintendo will sell some crazy cable. (Who knows)

[NFG]

The new hyper-thin flat CRTs are where I'm gonna put my hopes.  As cheap as a normal CRT (eventually) but almost as thin as an LCD or plasma, with all the other benefits of CRTs, including proper resolution support without scaling and the lovely scanlines we all adore.  

[Endymion]

Do you have any links/info handy on that Lawrence? As I understood it a big problem with CRT for widescreen TVs was that it couldn't sustain enough light across broader areas, so their screens are smaller than the others. Seems right as I can't recall offhand seeing any 16:9 CRT larger than 36".

I don't mind newer tech in fact I tend to prefer it, but the reason I stayed with a CRT even for my HDTV was due to the several and various problems that the other screens had, along with the cost. Nothing else was quite right and it cost a good bundle too.

[TJ_Kat]

Isn't some British university claiming to be less than 5 years away from making comercially available a TV/Monitor that will look exactly like an overhead projector screen assembly, but generate it's own images? At the time I heard about this, it was from 2 different sources, but for the life of me, I can't remember who they were. Supposedly this was also going to be even cheaper to manufacture than CRT.

Considering I haven't heard anything about this for a long time now, I don't even know if it's real, but I'm still hoping.

[Agentspikey95]

You're confused.  First of all, SCART is a horrible standard with a terrible connector that's nearly impossible to plug in with your arm around the TV.

There's no such thing as "composite RGB" as far as I'm aware, do you mean component video?  And why doesn't this plasma TV have sound?  Is it broken?

   You completely forgot that it is literally not possible to find the connectors in the US and a living hell to try and import any.

Actually, there's a company in the midwest USA that makes SCART cables for the super expensive home-theater crowd. i've seen their ads in two HT mags (don't ask what they were)

[Aidan]

OLED based displays may very well replace LCD, should they sort one or two problems out. OLED displays look to be printable using nothing more fancy than an inkjet printer, which could drive prices down fairly rapidly.

The biggest problem at the moment is ensuring that the display lasts long enough!

[NFG]

OLED, Plasma and LCD all share the same drawback: dedicated resolutions.  When playing a game that isn't output to exactly the same resolution as the receiving device, you have to enlarge the image electronically using one scaling algorithm or another.  If you don't you get an image that is smaller than the display.  For example, I have an LCD with a native resolution of 1280x1024.  If I want to play a game that's 640x480 (or most consoles are 320x240) I simply cannot do it without having the monitor scale the image.  Observe:



These are enlarged to show the details.  The first is the original sprite.  The second is interpolated or resampled.  The third is hard scaled, so any pixel that doesn't multiply evenly becomes obviously larger or smaller than its neighbors.  If you've played Dreamcast's Mars Matrix you've seen this effect in the background, which 'ripples' as it scrolls past points where pixels are simply cut.  

If you're soft scaling (interpolating) you get blur and indistinct edges.  If you hardscale you keep the clarity at the expense of proportion.

This is in direct contrast to a CRT which can simply scale the image with outdated analogue circtuits.  Basically it just aims the electron beams at a different spacing.  Since each game pixel is 'sprayed' at the same proportion to the rest there's usually no visible scaling artifacts.

CRTs are hot powersucking beasts with a lot of mass.  Flat panels are efficient and super-clear at their native resolutions, but they suffer for any other res, often so significantly that the fun is literally sucked out of your pores and games become like needles to the eyes.

Seriously, needles.  Try it.

[Aidan]

Indeed, scaling always presents a problem. However, hard scaling is usually possible if you don't mind some blank screen. If the OLED problems are solved, it *should* mean cheap thin screens with high contrast ratios. OLED has a lot of promise, even if scaling is an issue.

I'm hoping that they'll be able to drop the price of OLED displays below that of a standard CRT of the same size. That and the fact that an OLED display can be flexable could lead to some interesting displays.

[atom]

I agree with everything said, Flat panels look like crap when not in their native res. But I don't see why you cant just boot your game into the native res in most cases. Another reason you get blurring on some flat panels is because pixels cant change at the speed of light like on a CRT, try playing a fast paced game like Counter-Strike.

[NFG]

The reasons for not booting a game into the native res are simple:

Old consoles don't do 1280x1024.  Most don't even do 640x480.  Upscanning kills vibrancy and can also introduce upscanning fuzziness.  On the PC games tend to bog down in super-high resolutions.  I get 20-60fps at 1280, and 60-90 @ 800x600.

[Akir]

Ive got good news to end this topic for (un)shure. There is now a standard that will fit my personal standards, and then some. It has Digital RGB, as well as 6-channel Surround sound (that may be optical). It's called HDMI (High Definition Media Interface). It runs at 5.5GB/s, as opposed to DVI's 3.6GB/s. The only problem is the price. Only REALLY, REALLY, REALLY expensive TVs have them, and the cords themselves are a whole in the pocket.

As per the integration problems, I think that there is a new one (also on the expensive ones) where it calculates where the light beams would go, and base a picture based on that. Not sure if it's out, though.

[Agentspikey95]

the "fact" that you can't get SCART TV's in the US is a lie. I saw a media presentation TV in my Biz tech class back in 8th grade last year that had a scart connector labeled "CVBS RGB" pretty sure it's real SCART, but haven't seen any since.  

[Endymion]

Doesn't this sentence:

pretty sure it's real SCART, but haven't seen any since.

Make this sentence:

the "fact" that you can't get SCART TV's in the US is a lie.

A lie? (Or some near approximation.) The TV you saw is more like a Ripley's Believe It Or Not segment than it is reality of current or past TVs in this hemisphere, unfortunately.

[phreak97]

yeah.. the fact you saw one doesnt mean itll be easy to go out and buy one..
i say scart doesnt exist here.. cos you will almost never come accross it. but in reality there is a very small number of tv's which do have scart, the old s&e block tv at school had an scart connector.. come to think of it, i should have asked where that went when the new one came in, might have been able to grab it cheap:/
also theres a pcb in the shed which came out of.. something.. which has an scart connector on it.. i thought it came from a vcr.. but why would a vcr have scart input and composite output? might have been from a tv after all, i honestly dont remember. i pulled apart whatever it was before i knew what scart was, or i'd have not plled it apart. same goes for the amstrad monitor which i trashed in grade 7.. it was an rgb monitor.. but at the time all it was to me was a screen with a funky cable that wouldnt fit anywhere.. theres still a bit of the plastic casing with the cables attached in one of the bushes in the chook pen down the back of my yard.. i regret killing it every time i see that:'(

sorry, somehow i went right off topic

[Guest]

Alright ok, my post is bad, i'm an idiot etc. etc.

but why would a vcr have scart input and composite output?

If i'm not mistaken, doesn't SCART have a pin for Composite Video?