Confusion regarding the state of emulation (and lack of opensource)

[neozeed]

So what I can figure is that there are a bunch of x68000 emulators based on xm6.

version 2.00, including source is on Zophar's domain.

The author's website is now defunct (http://www.ipc-tokai.or.jp/~ytanaka/), but in archive.org, it looks like it was abandoned around 2008.  The last version being 2.06, and the last source release being 2.05 (which xm6_205s.lzh is on archive.org!).  For some reason the source downloads of xm6_205s.lzh are all missing/corrupt.

On this page, yohkai.no-ip.info/x680x0/XM6.htm there is the cryptic "Due to various circumstances and has stopped the publication of source."

Which I'm kind of curious as to why the source suddenly became unavailable.


Then there is XM6i, which mentions opensource, but none of the downloads include the source.
There is this translated note on the page:
"And abolished the UAE from licensing issues, and changes in MUSASHI v4.55 core." / "ライセンスの問題から UAE を廃止して、MUSASHI v4.55 コアに変更。"

So I'm to gather that the UAE licensing issue it that it's GPL, and as such he'd be required to open his source under GPL?  Very strange.  MUSASHI is BSD licensed?  which is a shame in that none of the 68030/MMU stuff went back into MUSASHI (or did it? the mame branch's MMU is under the restrictive MAME license.)

There is XM6_pid, which aimed to be a portable xm6.  One interesting thing is that it's source history is available, which also includes the xm6_205s.zip starting point.

xm6p205 is an improvement regarding WindrvXM support, and includes changed source (but not full source?) against xm6_205s.zip.

XM6 Pro-68k, which is also closed source...

XM6 type G which is region locked to Japanese versions of Windows, which went silent on japanese geocities, and then went to this cryptic page about only being announced on twitter of all things.

I'm sure I'm missing out more forks of xm6, but it seems awfully strange that they all depended on xm6 initially being open source, but then something happened and so many of them have shut down pages, closed off the source, or remain closed source forkes where they benifited from being open in the beginning and then shut down from there.

What happened in the world of x68000 emulation?

I see that many of the newer versions include tun/tap networking and I'd love to add SLiRP and/or libpcap support but due to the closed nature that'll not happen.  It's all very strange to me.

[AnnaWu]

XM6P (Version 2.05+)
http://coexe.web.fc2.com/xm6.html
This programmer published his source.

I am too tired to talk about the other things.

[neozeed]

XM6P (Version 2.05+)
http://coexe.web.fc2.com/xm6.html
This programmer published his source.

I am too tired to talk about the other things.

I had that one listed above, although it is the differences from 2.05 (I'm guessing) ... as I haven't tried to build it.

[H68k]

This is sadly the way things are at the moment.. Most of the widely used veriants of XM6 are effectively closed source.

As much as I'd like to see GIMONS open source XM6g in the near future maybe.. the chances of this remotely happening, are slim to.

[neozeed]

This is sadly the way things are at the moment.. Most of the widely used veriants of XM6 are effectively closed source.

As much as I'd like to see GIMONS open source XM6g in the near future maybe.. the chances of this remotely happening, are slim to.

That is pretty sad.  I just hate it when cool stuff eventually rots out, not so much because the original people stopped maintaining it, but more so that it's impossible to either add newer things to it, or at least try to keep it running on newer systems... say if Windows RT really became viable doing an ARM build would have been a 'good thing' but that's not going to happen.   

[H68k]

I fear the same may happen to XM6g.. A few good emulators have dropped dead in the past for very smiler reasons, for example: developer gets board and never returns to there project or something bad happens to said developer in real life or developer suffers from data loss because of drive/computer failure and/or act of god and loses source code to there project.. etc etc

I could ramble on about this until I'm blue in the face.. but it wont make any difference what so ever..

say if Windows RT really became viable doing an ARM build would have been a 'good thing' but that's not going to happen.

While a port to an ARM based tablet running windows RT would be quite possible.. (as 90% of the APIs that are in the "desktop" version of windows 8 for x86 compatible processors are in the RT edition) it's look's just as doubtful this would happen ether.

Windows RT may become a bit more viable if Microsoft became a little less draconian in the process of what can be put on the windows store (not including malware and beastly nasty stuff mind you) and maybe if they included an x86 to ARM translator in the RT edition to. while it would be impossible to play a modern "PC" game on an RT tablet, simple programs would be quite viable.

[neozeed]

I fear the same may happen to XM6g.. A few good emulators have dropped dead in the past for very smiler reasons, for example: developer gets board and never returns to there project or something bad happens to said developer in real life or developer suffers from data loss because of drive/computer failure and/or act of god and loses source code to there project.. etc etc

say if Windows RT really became viable doing an ARM build would have been a 'good thing' but that's not going to happen.

While a port to an ARM based tablet running windows RT would be quite possible.. (as 90% of the APIs that are in the "desktop" version of windows 8 for x86 compatible processors are in the RT edition) it's look's just as doubtful this would happen ether.

Windows RT may become a bit more viable if Microsoft became a little less draconian in the process of what can be put on the windows store (not including malware and beastly nasty stuff mind you) and maybe if they included an x86 to ARM translator in the RT edition to. while it would be impossible to play a modern "PC" game on an RT tablet, simple programs would be quite viable.

I was using RT more of an example of a Windows OS that doesn't run x86 binaries, so the only hope to continue any of these x68000 emulators is to rebuild from source which isn't much of an option for any of the later ones.

I could ramble on about this until I'm blue in the face.. but it wont make any difference what so ever..

Yeah I have a feeling I'm going nowhere with this as well.  I just was hoping I was missing something.

[neko68k]

1) Theres a lot of x86 asm in xm6. Porting to any other platform would be a chore in the least.

2) Overwhelming nationalism/institutional racism is why you can't freely download the source and why silly things like the 'region check' from a few releases ago exist and his recent threats regarding adding a more robust check due to EmuCR's sharing of the binaries(which they've been doing for years, go figure...).

3) GIMONS has said in the past s/he will share if you ask, and has done so. At this time, things might be different.

[eidis]

 This calls for a peace rally.

Keep the scene alive !
Eidis

[H68k]

Before this turns into a heated debate and I have to start posting while wearing an asbestos suit.. I'm NOT demanding the source code.. only for GIMONS to consider releasing it when he/she/it has finished development or got board of further development of XM6g. This would allow people to pick up from where GIMONS left off. and perhaps make the code base even more portable by removing x86 assembler and replacing it with portable C code.
   

[neozeed]

2) Overwhelming nationalism/institutional racism is why you can't freely download the source and why silly things like the 'region check' from a few releases ago exist and his recent threats regarding adding a more robust check due to EmuCR's sharing of the binaries(which they've been doing for years, go figure...).

This is what I feared the most.  And not only is this why the x68000 never went beyond Japan but why it may very well die there.  When I look at things like Previous or ARAnyM it's a shame that there isn't a x68000 analog that shares in such a great 68000 emulation core.  Or maybe I'm too GPL, and thinking of all the things out there that'd be interesting to mix in with an emulator, and it's a shame that so many are either closed sourced, or exceptionally restrictive.  Although I did find run68 which can run simple HumanOS binaries, but emulates no graphics/sound hardware.  And it's GPL'd to boot.

[neozeed]

This calls for a peace rally.

no kidding!

[H68k]

This is what I feared the most.  And not only is this why the x68000 never went beyond Japan but why it may very well die there.

Well.. sadly the X68k became a victim of the relentless pace of technology in the land of the rising sun. hence why now the auction sites are the dumping grounds of them and the likes of other Japanese computers such as: the PC98 and FM Towns series. plus "computer gaming" is well and truly part of the minority, as games consoles reign supreme there.

It's a shame Sharp never botherd to sell them else were really. I'm sure (even if it would not sell as well as the Commodore Amiga and Atari ST due to it's price) it would at least gained just as a good cult following anywhere else, as much as in it's native homeland.

Now it's just the owners and die hard users that keep the spirit of the X68000 and other old passed it Japanese computers alive.

[eidis]

 Gentleman, please.

I am absolutely sure that the authors of emulators have very good reasons for not sharing the source code. Lot's of things are not fair but that's life and somehow we have to carry on. Besides, a good way to achieve that goal is to prove to them that we are worthy of the source code by doing something that might impress them.

Please stop performing funeral ceremonies for the X68000. We have passed that era long ago and now we have entered the renaissance. Most of you will agree that its popularity in the last few years has skyrocketed and this forum and Wiki page has become the main hub of knowledge for repairs and mods. It's all about the community, not just the hardware. The best hardware in the world would be useless if not for friendly, professional and caring community.

Keep the scene alive !
Eidis

[NFG]

There's a lot of context to consider in this discussion and I'm going to just lay some down in a pre-coffee-incoherent-sorry fashion:

The X68000 platform had a difficult life, because Sharp sold it in their TV stores exclusively, it was not sold as a standard PC platform in computer shops, which hugely limited its sales.  They mismanaged it all the time, like many computer platforms of the day.  Our history is littered with super-fucking-awesome hardware created by geniuses and sold by idiots. 

And when something great is mismanaged or fails for whatever reason, the people who do like it can become a little fanatical.  The people who still use the X68k in Japan are the passionate few, and since this is a computer and not a band/celebrity/whatever else, they're passionate geeks.  Strong minded and fucking smart, as a rule.

What neko sees as nationalism and racism I interpret a little differently.  A very small, very passionate community of terribly smart people are humming right along and doing amazing things and all these scatterbrained white fuckers from overseas start intruding on the space.  Sometimes they're cool, sometimes they're fucking annoying, and they barely speak the language and every time someone in the Japanese scene pops their head up they're inundated with requests from people who are still in the 'holy fucking shit this is so cool!' phase of this awesome stuff the Japanese scene has been busy with for decades.

You ever been in an IRC chat room or forum and someone new pops up in an old community and goes "I am Brazil!" followed by endless posts and questions and requests that barely make any sense?

You shun the fuck out of them, because to try and help them is a serious time vampire and you've got other shit you're trying to get done.

Finally, a roundabout point:

When I modified my HiSaturn Navi for RGB output, and swapped in some new funky coloured LEDs, people were aghast.  When I cut up any rare piece of hardware because I want the parts inside, people get really upset with me.  "If you don't respect it, give it to me!"  Yeah, fuck off, it's my stuff.  It's MINE.  I do what I want with it, your fierce passions don't have any bearing on the situation.

And so when someone creates something and you really really want them to release the source, you have -no- cause to do much more than lament the sad fact that maybe things in the world aren't as perfect as you'd prefer.  But to cast aspersions upon the person who doesn't give you what you want only makes you look like an immature self-entitled asshole.

This rambling dose of hard-hitting context is now  over.  In closing, you guys are awesome, this community is awesome, eidis is awesome.

Whew, coffee time.

[H68k]

WHAT?! The... X68000's DEAD?!? no.... NO.... NO! it can't be true... no... IT CAN'T BE TRUE!!!1111oneone NOOoooOOOoooOOOoooOOoooooOOOooOOoooooOooooOOoooo! *cough* *wheeze* *pant*


Ahh ok.. I'll stop being dramatic now.