Snes NTSC RGB - image/sync issue with bright whites

[Zapf]

You might have seen this on a different forum already today - I apologize if I appear to be spamming =/

I got bit by the RGB bug and went about buying all the shit I needed to set up my snes, genesis and sega saturn for rgb output. I have some minor issues though, and I am trying to figure out where the problem is exactly.

My setup-
US NTSC SNES, Genesis, Saturn
3rd party RGB SCART cables - Saturn and SNES bought from electric quarter, sega model two bought from pcenginesales on ebay.
RGB->YUV Transcoder - cvs 287, bought from ebay. Looks like a knockoff of the csy 2100
Component cable - monoprice rg6 component (quality stuff) - also tested with cheap phillips cable from walmart

~My Problem~
On the snes, I get this image tear on really bright white screens. This is from contra III, the Konami logo and the intro with the big explosion


I also checked on super metroid - does it during the first large explosion while you are doing crystal flash.

This happens only on my LCD (Sharp aquos 32 inch LC-32E67U) - I ran upstairs and tested on the component input of my older magnavox 27 inch crt, and it was fine.

So, is this solely a problem with my tv? I dont have this problem with the component out of my wii emulating contra III or any other game with the konami logo. I've tried with the official snes AC Adapter and with a third party one, and two different snes's. I'm using an ac adapter from sprint for the transcoder - it matches the voltage/amp requirements and worked well for another user on this forum (i also tried one from radioshack, same problem). Is there something I could adjust in the transcoder that could solve this? I know it has several variable resistors in there and from what I've read you can adjust three of the five for R, G, B color balance.

[Zapf]

an update - I opened up the cable to see if it was to spec for what a us ntsc scart connection would require - It didnt have the 75 ohm or cap on composite like i thought it might (it was advertised as a pal snes/n64/gcn cable), but the caps on r, g and b are a lower value that what I've read they should be on various sites (100uf instead of 220uf) - could this be the problem?

[RGB32E]

an update - I opened up the cable to see if it was to spec for what a us ntsc scart connection would require - It didnt have the 75 ohm or cap on composite like i thought it might (it was advertised as a pal snes/n64/gcn cable), but the caps on r, g and b are a lower value that what I've read they should be on various sites (100uf instead of 220uf) - could this be the problem?

The SNES has been known to have this type of problem with other setups...  Solution?  Buy a XRGB-3 instead, and adjust the AFC Level!   Also, take note that some TVs won't even display 240p component signals at all!  Hence, it's a problem with the TV, and the weird timing of the SNES signal.  I can't seem to find the related thread...

I've tried connecting a SNES using a CSY-2100 to a Sharp LC46D64 and seem to recall the same issue, in addition to diagonal edge enhancement (like Super Eagle/Sai effect).  So, the point being, it's the TVs handling of the signal...  Perhaps some sort of sync processing might fix, but adding a LM1881 alone won't fix the problem.  So, replace the TV, or buy a different RGB to TV solution (e.g. XRGB). :/

[marqs]

an update - I opened up the cable to see if it was to spec for what a us ntsc scart connection would require - It didnt have the 75 ohm or cap on composite like i thought it might (it was advertised as a pal snes/n64/gcn cable), but the caps on r, g and b are a lower value that what I've read they should be on various sites (100uf instead of 220uf) - could this be the problem?

Did you also open the block going into the console's av-out/check the resistance with multimeter? I had exactly the same problem and found the 75ohm resistor inside that block. Removing it fixed the sync, but opening the block was not easy...

[Zapf]

an update - I opened up the cable to see if it was to spec for what a us ntsc scart connection would require - It didnt have the 75 ohm or cap on composite like i thought it might (it was advertised as a pal snes/n64/gcn cable), but the caps on r, g and b are a lower value that what I've read they should be on various sites (100uf instead of 220uf) - could this be the problem?

Did you also open the block going into the console's av-out/check the resistance with multimeter? I had exactly the same problem and found the 75ohm resistor inside that block. Removing it fixed the sync, but opening the block was not easy...

I'll have to try that out tonight. Any suggestions on opening it up? looks pretty well sealed.

[Zapf]

an update - I opened up the cable to see if it was to spec for what a us ntsc scart connection would require - It didnt have the 75 ohm or cap on composite like i thought it might (it was advertised as a pal snes/n64/gcn cable), but the caps on r, g and b are a lower value that what I've read they should be on various sites (100uf instead of 220uf) - could this be the problem?

The SNES has been known to have this type of problem with other setups...  Solution?  Buy a XRGB-3 instead, and adjust the AFC Level!   Also, take note that some TVs won't even display 240p component signals at all!  Hence, it's a problem with the TV, and the weird timing of the SNES signal.  I can't seem to find the related thread...

I've tried connecting a SNES using a CSY-2100 to a Sharp LC46D64 and seem to recall the same issue, in addition to diagonal edge enhancement (like Super Eagle/Sai effect).  So, the point being, it's the TVs handling of the signal...  Perhaps some sort of sync processing might fix, but adding a LM1881 alone won't fix the problem.  So, replace the TV, or buy a different RGB to TV solution (e.g. XRGB). :/

Just to be clear, was your issue constant or just on really bright scenes - my display shows the snes screen fine in any other case, and shows the genesis and saturn fantastically. I'm just really wary of dropping 300+ down on an xrgb-3 for one console.

[RGB32E]

an update - I opened up the cable to see if it was to spec for what a us ntsc scart connection would require - It didnt have the 75 ohm or cap on composite like i thought it might (it was advertised as a pal snes/n64/gcn cable), but the caps on r, g and b are a lower value that what I've read they should be on various sites (100uf instead of 220uf) - could this be the problem?

The SNES has been known to have this type of problem with other setups...  Solution?  Buy a XRGB-3 instead, and adjust the AFC Level!  Also, take note that some TVs won't even display 240p component signals at all!  Hence, it's a problem with the TV, and the weird timing of the SNES signal.  I can't seem to find the related thread...

I've tried connecting a SNES using a CSY-2100 to a Sharp LC46D64 and seem to recall the same issue, in addition to diagonal edge enhancement (like Super Eagle/Sai effect).  So, the point being, it's the TVs handling of the signal...  Perhaps some sort of sync processing might fix, but adding a LM1881 alone won't fix the problem.  So, replace the TV, or buy a different RGB to TV solution (e.g. XRGB). :/

Just to be clear, was your issue constant or just on really bright scenes - my display shows the snes screen fine in any other case, and shows the genesis and saturn fantastically. I'm just really wary of dropping 300+ down on an xrgb-3 for one console.

IIRC, with the CSY-2100/SNES combo to a Sharp D64 that the top row distortion was consistent.  I never used the CSY on my HDTV, but have used a Kramer FC-14 and never had any issues with the SNES.  The Kramer is a commercial grade unit that will give you the best possible RGB to component conversion.  I paid a little over $200 for mine, but the MSRP was around $350.  Even with the "best" RGB to component converter, and a HDTV that doesn't have problems with 240p signals via component, the XRGB-3 is without a doubt a superior solution.  Hence, if you are not using a XRGB-3 to play old school games (RGB) on a HDTV, you might as well just emulate instead... just like Lawrence!

[Zapf]

an update - I opened up the cable to see if it was to spec for what a us ntsc scart connection would require - It didnt have the 75 ohm or cap on composite like i thought it might (it was advertised as a pal snes/n64/gcn cable), but the caps on r, g and b are a lower value that what I've read they should be on various sites (100uf instead of 220uf) - could this be the problem?

The SNES has been known to have this type of problem with other setups...  Solution?  Buy a XRGB-3 instead, and adjust the AFC Level!   Also, take note that some TVs won't even display 240p component signals at all!  Hence, it's a problem with the TV, and the weird timing of the SNES signal.  I can't seem to find the related thread...

I've tried connecting a SNES using a CSY-2100 to a Sharp LC46D64 and seem to recall the same issue, in addition to diagonal edge enhancement (like Super Eagle/Sai effect).  So, the point being, it's the TVs handling of the signal...  Perhaps some sort of sync processing might fix, but adding a LM1881 alone won't fix the problem.  So, replace the TV, or buy a different RGB to TV solution (e.g. XRGB). :/

Just to be clear, was your issue constant or just on really bright scenes - my display shows the snes screen fine in any other case, and shows the genesis and saturn fantastically. I'm just really wary of dropping 300+ down on an xrgb-3 for one console.

IIRC, with the CSY-2100/SNES combo to a Sharp D64 that the top row distortion was consistent.  I never used the CSY on my HDTV, but have used a Kramer FC-14 and never had any issues with the SNES.  The Kramer is a commercial grade unit that will give you the best possible RGB to component conversion.  I paid a little over $200 for mine, but the MSRP was around $350.  Even with the "best" RGB to component converter, and a HDTV that doesn't have problems with 240p signals via component, the XRGB-3 is without a doubt a superior solution.  Hence, if you are not using a XRGB-3 to play old school games (RGB) on a HDTV, you might as well just emulate instead... just like Lawrence!

I've considered making an htpc for video and emulation... though I guess one problem I've had with that is whenever I stare at a giant rom pack my eyes sorta glaze over and I lose all interest in playing any of the games =/ its weird I know, I just get more enjoyment of playing on the original hardware with carts I've obtained for some reason.

There is a kramer fc-14 on ebay right now for 130 - if I were to get that, what would be the easiest way of getting the connection from my scart switcher to the bnc connections?

[RGB32E]

I've considered making an htpc for video and emulation... though I guess one problem I've had with that is whenever I stare at a giant rom pack my eyes sorta glaze over and I lose all interest in playing any of the games =/ its weird I know, I just get more enjoyment of playing on the original hardware with carts I've obtained for some reason.

It isn't weird, I feel the same way.    Hence, my journey from CSY2100 to the Kramer FC-14, and finally ended up with the XRGB-3.

There is a kramer fc-14 on ebay right now for 130 - if I were to get that, what would be the easiest way of getting the connection from my scart switcher to the bnc connections?

The FC-14 gives you the choice of connecting RGB via a HDDB15 (e.g. VGA) connector, or BNCs.  I primarily used the DB input, as I had made a simple PVM to VGA adapter.  I think there are prebuilt solutions that would work such as:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Scart-to-6-RCA-yPbPr-CVBS-cable-for-DM500_W0QQitemZ110445917857



Just add RCA to BNC adapters for R, G, B, C/S, and you should be good to go.

[Zapf]

Awesome, I must have put the wrong shit into ebay - I kept finding those cables sans the composite connection. Is there a reason all the recommended shops are sold out of xrgb-3 atm?

[RGB32E]

Awesome, I must have put the wrong shit into ebay - I kept finding those cables sans the composite connection. Is there a reason all the recommended shops are sold out of xrgb-3 atm?

keywords: SCART 6 RCA

You have to be careful, since some cables are wired for component/RGB+composite+audo, and others are wired for composite+audio in and out...

I just checked amazon japan, and they still have 3 XRGB-3 units left.  Amazon continues to replentish their stock.  When they are temporarily out, they will use a 3rd party vendor.

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[Arasoi]

Just add RCA to BNC adapters for R, G, B, C/S, and you should be good to go.

I've used these specific breakout adapters for my own rig (SCART- coupler - SCART-RCA breakout - Pelican Pro A/V selector)

They do work, but the RCA ends on them are very, very cheap and break easily. I ordered 3, all three of them had bent parts on the RCA male connectors (the part that holds the connector on) out of the box, and they come apart very easily when you unplug them, not to mention the strain relief on the wires is nonexistant. Not a problem if you have a soldering iron and 5 minutes,  but be forewarned etc.

[Zapf]

An update - while I was waiting for that cable to come, I got a super cheap HK scart rgb cable for $4 shipped from ebay (how they make money off that i have no idea). It just came today and had 220uf caps on the 3 lines. the issue is vastly reduced/almost gone (there is the tiniest of shifting along the top when those bright whites appear).

I'll probably have the kramer hooked up this week if they were being honest about the 7 day shipping or so

[Zapf]

Ugh, I got that cable today, what a piece of shit. After I got it all set up, with the kramer, I couldn't get a picture at all - it appeared once at the konami logo on my genesis (castlevania bloodlines), not at all on my snes. The pin in the composite connection came out after I unplugged it.

I tried sending the composite/sync signal in from my scart switch (it has 2 sets of rca audio and composite output in addition to the scart) and I got the same thing.

I tried sending the sync from the second composite out (I think it may be amplified to some degree - audio is a lot louder out its set of rca plugs) and It appears fine in dark screens but then loses sync on normal / bright screens.

I had it set to RGBS on the front. Its runnin fine right now with the cvs.

So, at this point, is this an issue with my fc-14, an issue with my cable, an issue with my tv? Do I need to get that sync stripped from the composite? Is there another cable that doesnt blow ass? I'm going to test on my crt tv soon.

So frustruating  

[RGB32E]

Ugh, I got that cable today, what a piece of shit. After I got it all set up, with the kramer, I couldn't get a picture at all - it appeared once at the konami logo on my genesis (castlevania bloodlines), not at all on my snes. The pin in the composite connection came out after I unplugged it.

I tried sending the composite/sync signal in from my scart switch (it has 2 sets of rca audio and composite output in addition to the scart) and I got the same thing.

I tried sending the sync from the second composite out (I think it may be amplified to some degree - audio is a lot louder out its set of rca plugs) and It appears fine in dark screens but then loses sync on normal / bright screens.

I had it set to RGBS on the front. Its runnin fine right now with the cvs.

So, at this point, is this an issue with my fc-14, an issue with my cable, an issue with my tv? Do I need to get that sync stripped from the composite? Is there another cable that doesnt blow ass? I'm going to test on my crt tv soon.

So frustruating  

Yes, it is frustrating.  Yes, you need to strip sync from composite video before connecting to the FC-14.  OR rewire your SNES cable to use the CSYNC pin instead (if possible).

Should add a wiki page for using the FC-14 with consoles... yes?  I've used most all RGB capable/modded with my FC-14, and there are some notes...

[Zapf]

edit: im going to try and rephrase this to make more sense. Whats the best way of implementing the lm1881n circuit in my setup (3 consoles -> scart switcher -> kramer fc 14 -> tv) am I going to have to fashion some sort of scart -> db9 cable like in that gamesx tutorial, can I put this in a project box seperately (would be preferred if possible) with comp in / sync out, or is there another option.

[Zapf]

alright, I got the sync cleaner circuit assembled. It works with the "amplified" composite output from my scart switch, but not from the unamplified output or the composite lead from my scart -> 6 rca cable.

However, im gettin the same problems with snes again as I did in my OP =/ I'm going to double check with my other snes scart cable when I eventually find it (having cables disappear into the mess of my room is infuriating).

[Zapf]

OK, I found that cable (the 100 uf caps one) and tried it out. Much worse. This leads me to believe if I modded the snes cable with larger uf caps, the problem would resolve itself. I'll have to try that out next week.

[Zapf]

Ok, that actually worked. I think I used 470 uf caps (the next highest size at radioshack).  I'm havin a hard time tellin the difference between it and my cheap converter though - maybe my tv isn't good enough to make make any improvements noticeable =/

I'll continue experimenting =)