Sony PVM (And the human response)

[zedrein]

After much research I've come to the conclusion that this particular series of 15 kHz displays is preferable over the standard Commodore 1084's for gaming in RGB. I do however have a few questions that when sufficiently answered will guide me in choosing which specific variation of this display that I shall purchase -- So without further ado:

-Does there exist a model of the Sony PVM that is natively a 480 line vertical resolution? All the ones on the market I've seen tend to be 800 or 600 lines vertically. While I know that a lower res 15 kHz RGB signal can be fed to these higher resolution displays, I fear that the results wouldn't be as spectacular as a display with a resolution that matches the content I'll be sending to it.

-Most PVM's seem to have only one speaker installed on the entire unit, but there appears to exist stereo speaker jack outputs located on the back for external loudspeakers. Is this speaker output of quality or would it still be preferable to use a proper audio receiver instead?

-Finally, please tell about which PVM model you've used for your gaming purposes and how these particular displays have performed overall.

Thanks for your time.

[Fudoh]

Sounds like you're a child of the digital LCD era There isn't such a thing as a native resolution on CRT displays. There's a sweetspot at which the display shows the most detail while retaining the full resolution, but you don't loose anything by using a lower resolution. The Sony PVM CRTs are spec'ed at 600 lines, so they can display full resolution PAL (576 lines) without any loss of detail. You'll be absolutely fine with feeding 480i to them.

Where did you see the PVM with only one speaker ? Usually the PVM monitors don't have speakers at all. There were official Sony Stereo speakers which could be attached on the left and right and flipped back when not in use. They don't sound this great though and you're better off to use a 2.1 set of your choice.

I've used a PGM-2950 which is the VGA equivalent of the PVM series and I've used a PVM-2730QM. If you can handle the weight of these babies (55-65kg) you'll have a lot of fun with them. Note though that the PVM displays have quite a curved display (Triniton, curved from the left to right only). The 21" series is an alternative in case you need a monitor for easy rotating for playing vertical shoot'em ups.

[Jibbajaba]

First of all, why would you want to spend time and money getting the best video quality possible out of your games, only to use the speakers built in to a monitor?

Second, I use a PVM-1341 which is very small (13") but gives an awesome picture.  The two things that you should take into consideration are size (getting one appropriate for your setup), and age/usage.  My 1341 was made in 1997 and was basically never used until I got it.  Yeah it's a small screen, but it works great with my setup and I just sit pretty close to it.  I bought a PVM-2530 not long a go that was from like 1986 and had seen heavy usage, and it had a poor picture and died shortly after I got it.  I'm not saying you shouldn't buy something as old as a 2530; I'm just saying that if you buy something that old, try to get something that was gently used to minimize your risk.

I am currently looking for a ~19" PVM, and am trying to get the newest one I can find.  You can easily find monitors that were made in this decade, and they will have 2 RGB inputs instead of just one, which is an added bonus.

Anyway, just my 2 cents, but I am an RGB dipshit compared to a lot of folks around here so my 2 cents is worth about 1.5 cents, give or take.

Chris

[RGB32E]

Most of the 20" and smaller PVMs only supported mono audio... but that isn't stopping you from routing the stereo audio to an external audio speakers...  Even a cheap pair of PC speakers with an adapter would work!  Any CRT near it's end looks awful.  Had the 2530 not been near it's end, it would have given you a superb picture for 240p RGB!  When I purchased my PVM-2030 a decade ago, it had hardly any use, so I'm able to get a vibrant picture to this day!  Though I haven't used it heavily, since it isn't my primary display (it was for a short period of time).  

So, any "cubic" style PVM in non-worn out condition will give a great picture and have stereo audio inputs with external speaker amp:
-PVM-2030 (Trinitron Tube)
-PVM-2530 (Trinitron Tube)
-PVM-3230 (Trinitron Tube)
-PVM-2950 (Super Trinitron Tube)
-PGM-2950 (VGA - Super Trinitron Tube)

Used mileage varies the PQ!!    

Like mine?

First of all, why would you want to spend time and money getting the best video quality possible out of your games, only to use the speakers built in to a monitor?

Second, I use a PVM-1341 which is very small (13") but gives an awesome picture.  The two things that you should take into consideration are size (getting one appropriate for your setup), and age/usage.  My 1341 was made in 1997 and was basically never used until I got it.  Yeah it's a small screen, but it works great with my setup and I just sit pretty close to it.  I bought a PVM-2530 not long a go that was from like 1986 and had seen heavy usage, and it had a poor picture and died shortly after I got it.  I'm not saying you shouldn't buy something as old as a 2530; I'm just saying that if you buy something that old, try to get something that was gently used to minimize your risk.

I am currently looking for a ~19" PVM, and am trying to get the newest one I can find.  You can easily find monitors that were made in this decade, and they will have 2 RGB inputs instead of just one, which is an added bonus.

Anyway, just my 2 cents, but I am an RGB dipshit compared to a lot of folks around here so my 2 cents is worth about 1.5 cents, give or take.

Chris

[zedrein]

Thanks for the replies, gentlemen. Lord knows that these PVM's are looking more delectable by the minute. Even though others have pounded it into my thick skull that there's no "native resolution" for CRT displays, I find it hard to believe that a display with 800 lines maximum will look comparable to one that has only 480 maximum viewable lines when displaying a 240p image, but Lord knows that I have been wrong as a dong before!

Where did you see the PVM with only one speaker ?

Don't exactly remember, I think it was a google image search for "Sony PVM"

Also, thanks RGB32E, I was secretly hoping that you specifically would find your way to this thread when I was composing it.

[NFG]

I've been tempted to get one of these myself, lately.  Definitely need something for the perfect retro gaming.  No matter how much I love my plasma and emulators, sometimes I want to play an arcade PCB without filtering it nine times before it reaches my pathetic, inaccurate eyebulbs.  Probably have to wait and find one locally, so I can check it out before purchasing...

[zedrein]

I've been tempted to get one of these myself, lately.  Definitely need something for the perfect retro gaming.  No matter how much I love my plasma and emulators, sometimes I want to play an arcade PCB without filtering it nine times before it reaches my pathetic, inaccurate eyebulbs.  Probably have to wait and find one locally, so I can check it out before purchasing...

Oh my God, Lawrence. I thought that out of all people that you would use nothing but the finest CRT displays for retro gaming!

[NFG]

I already have two CRTs in addition to the plasma.  I'm just looking for one that's a little more versatile and/or bigger than what I have.  =P

[RGB32E]

If I were shopping for another PVM and lived within driving distance of Magna, Utah, I'd haggle for this one (PVM-2950Q):
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-Trinitron-Color-Video-Monitor-PVM-2950Q-29_W0QQitemZ160308732035QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2553252083&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Composite, S-Video, component, and RGB - all on a super trinitron tube!  My 32" TV is a Super Trinitron (only other SD tube in NA that I'm aware of using it).

[zedrein]

If I only had $300 right now that piece of perfection would be mine. Even though I would prefer a 20 inch version, that display is basically the one I see in my dreams every night...may God bless the man that ends up with her.

EDIT: I was studying the back panel and came up with a few questions: What's the function of the "in and out control s" inputs below the speaker clips? They appear to be 3.5mm TRS style jacks. Also, what does the "HD/Comp" BNC input on line 3 do? I would guess by the name that it has something to do with displaying progressive scan signals via component, but why the need for that extra input? Finally, on the PVM's can you use different lines' inputs simultaneously? For instance, if I was using RGB on line 3 but needed to use line 1 or 2's RCA stereo outputs for use with a receiver (because line 3 doesn't have those outputs) would that function the same?

Thanks for the link...and I do live within driving distance of Magna...maybe I need to sell some other useless possessions and get my priorities straight.

[RGB32E]

You could always make an offer for less money... check the listing again.

The only 20" version is the 2030... and doesn't have component video capability.

If you need to run audio to a receiver, just bypass the PVM all together!

HD/Composite is horizontal or composite sync input (check the labeling!!!).

Control S is used to control multiple monitors and or devices (Sony's use of a headphone jack instead of serial/RS-232).  Check page 13 of this to understand more:
http://www.docs.sony.com/release/PVM2030.pdf

Sell some stuff, offer $200 and see what happens.  You have less than 9 days to figure it out - time is ticking!

If I only had $300 right now that piece of perfection would be mine. Even though I would prefer a 20 inch version, that display is basically the one I see in my dreams every night...may God bless the man that ends up with her.

EDIT: I was studying the back panel and came up with a few questions: What's the function of the "in and out control s" inputs below the speaker clips? They appear to be 3.5mm TRS style jacks. Also, what does the "HD/Comp" BNC input on line 3 do? I would guess by the name that it has something to do with displaying progressive scan signals via component, but why the need for that extra input? Finally, on the PVM's can you use different lines' inputs simultaneously? For instance, if I was using RGB on line 3 but needed to use line 1 or 2's RCA stereo outputs for use with a receiver (because line 3 doesn't have those outputs) would that function the same?

Thanks for the link...and I do live within driving distance of Magna...maybe I need to sell some other useless possessions and get my priorities straight.

[RGB32E]

Ohh check out the settings!

http://www.docs.sony.com/release/PVM2950Q.PDF

[zedrein]

Thanks for digging that up! That thing sure has more capabilities than I'd ever need, but I'm happy to know that they're there in case I ever become a professional video editor  I'll be sure to keep contact with the seller to see if I can secure a deal on that damn thing. Utah, here I come!!

[RGB32E]

Good Luck!

I've thrown together an initial Wiki page for this monitor:
http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:pvm-2950q

Thanks for digging that up! That thing sure has more capabilities than I'd ever need, but I'm happy to know that they're there in case I ever become a professional video editor  I'll be sure to keep contact with the seller to see if I can secure a deal on that damn thing. Utah, here I come!!

[Anthony1]

I just want to give a few words of caution before going the Sony PVM route. There is no question that Sony makes an outstanding monitor, but like Jibbajaba said, try to find one that isn't super old, and has seen very little use. Also, I strongly advise to not buy one before actually trying it out with one of your systems in RGB. I've owned about 5 different Sony PVM monitors. Unfortunately, all five of them had issues.  I first started off with a Sony PVM-2530. It worked great for a few months, until I realized that it had a big red spot in the upper right corner of the screen. It was there all along, but for whatever reason, I didn't notice it until I played a game that had an all white background at a certain point, and then the red spot was totally obvious. I took it back to the place I bought it from, and the guy exchanged it for another one. Unfortunately, the one that I got had even more issues. I would have been better off staying with the one with the red spot. The one that I got back, would work great for about 2 hours, and then automatically shut off. Sometimes it would work for 5 hours and then shut off. Sometimes 2 minutes and then shut off. I took it to a TV repair place, and they tried to fix it 3 different times, but never actually fixed it. I finally ended up donating that one to a thrift store. Then I got another PVM-2530, and this one actually worked good, but had a horrible smell to it. I got it from a friend of mine who had it in storage, and somehow it ended up with this horrible rotten smell to it. So I took this one to a repair place, and they had the thing for almost a year, finally fixed it, but then wanted to charge me a freaking fortune for it, even though I never authorized them to fix it for that price. They were super pissed off about it, and agreed to give it back to me if I gave them $100. So I did. That was the best PVM-2530 that I had of the 3 or 4 that I tried, but even though it was pretty damn good, I did notice that the sharpness of it was never 100 percent up to par. Also, when you play certain systems on it, like the Sega Genesis, the picture is off a bit horizontally to the left or right, and when you play certain games like Sonic the Hedgehog, it would have this one inch blue border all around the screen area that was distracting.

Ultimately, I ended up selling that one cause it took up too much space, and wasn't as sharp and clear as I would have liked it to be.  It was an awesome monitor, don't get me wrong, but I just wanted it to be more sharp, and I wished it had more adjustments for screen size and position, without having to adjust the internal controls. That's one thing that really irritates me about the Sony PVM"s. My primary rgb display right now is my Commodore 1084S-D1. One thing I absolutely love about it, is that it gives you every external adjustment for screen size and position that you could ask for. You can adjust both size and position of vertical and horizontal. To me, those 4 options are absolutely mandatory if you're going to be using the monitor with a bunch of different gaming systems.

I've used two other Sony PVM monitors. The PVM-1943MD I believe (model # might be slightly off). This is the one that the OP might be talking about because it has 1 mono speaker. This one has MD for Medical and is used in many hospitals as and Endoscopy monitor. This one was a bit sharper than my best 2530, but again, it just didn't have that super sharp focus and clarity that I would like. My Neo-Geo looked really good on it, and the SNES looked really good on it, but I think my rgb modded 3DO didn't look right on it, or something like that. I think the Genesis had the blue overscan issue as well. I can't remember for sure, but I know it had a few issues. The primary issue though was the clarity and focus just wasn't as sharp as I would like it. When I'm talking about focus, I'm mainly talking about when you're playing a game and there is an on screen menu and there are words on the screen, the letters of the words weren't super defined like they are on my 1084S-D1.

Another Sony monitor I've used is the GVM-2000 . This one was pretty freaking awesome, probably the best Sony one I've used, but it had one major issue. It made this buzzing sound that wouldn't go away. I took it to a TV repair place, and the guy tried to figure out what was causing the buzzing, but he could never fix it. I ended up selling it. The nice thing about the GVM-2000 though, is that it did have some basic picture controls. Not nearly as good as the 1084S-D1, but better than the other Sony monitors. It would let you adjust the picture slightly to the left and right, but not as much as it should have. I think it let you expand the picture slightly vertically, but not as much as the 1084S-D1 allows you to. One other issue with this one is that it's focus wasn't 100 percent up to par either. It was better than the 2530's I had, and the 1943MD that I had, but not as sharp and crisp as the 1084S-D1.

Ideally, it would be awesome to get a 4:3 Sony PVM that was only a few years old, and if it also had the ability to adjust picture size and picture location for both the horizontal and vertical. And I'm talking about a full adjustment like the 1084S-D1. Also would be awesome if it had a flat CRT screen like the Sony Wega's from around 2003 or so. A 20 inch or 19 inch size would be perfect for me. I'm not sure such a Sony PVM exists, and if it does, it probably costs a fortune.

[zedrein]

Thanks for the reply, Anthony! I'll definitely be sure to be in a position where I can test a PVM out before I buy it. While the master (Lawrence) is away, I am going to sneak in a question about CRT displays: When a CRT needs to resolve displaying a lower res image would that mean that the dark gaps -- or "scanlines" -- simply be bigger than they would on a standard resolution display? Or would the higher resolution display try to stretch the lines that are already there to fill the screen (this making the image blurrier)?

[NFG]

The width of the drawn line cannot change, so if the incoming signal is a low resolution, then the lines spread apart to compensate.  Of course, this assumes the generating hardware is not creating a low-res image within a larger space (ie: letterboxing where the whole screen is drawn even if parts are empty) or is not upscaling or line-doubling, etc.

[zedrein]

Wow, [Lawrence] comes in to save the thread once again! Thanks for the clearing that up for me. I swear to God though when it comes to understanding CRT televisions I feel like I've been drinking retard water. Just to clarify one more thing: When the horizontal resolution of a CRT is much larger than the incoming signal the CRT simply changes the actual dimensions of the pixels so it's able to fill the screen?

+1 to all of you burly men keeping this topic alive.

[Edit by NFG: Wot the...?]

[NFG]

You're overthinking this.  The incoming resolution is squirted through the TV's circuits and injected into the electron beams as it's received, the TV does no processing on it at all.  If the line is entirely orange, then the TV sprays orange for a whole line.  If it's a checkerboard of orange squares, it sprays orange/nothing/orange/nothing/orange/nothing over and over.

The TV can't tell the difference between the two signals, because it's not paying attention.  It can't tell if the orange line is one long orange pixel or a thousand short orange pixels.  All the TV cares about it starting each line and screen when the sync signal tells it to, and keeping the electron beam sweeping so the ingomcing signal gets injected at the right place.

The PC Engine had an 'arcade mode' for some games (Dragon Spirit, one of the Star Soldiers) that adjusted the pixel clock.  The same overal screen was sent to the TV, but the speed of the output pixels was increased so that they were drawn in a smaller area of the TV (each horizontal line was squirted out faster, the electron beams didn't change their speed, hence: smaller image).  This gave the game a vertically narrower aspect, mimicking a vertical monitor...

So, yes, both the higher and lower resolution signal can fill the screen, but that's entirely up to the signal generator, not the TV.   It doesn't say "Aha, low res!  Must adapt to fill the screen!"  It just says "start here, start here, start here, start here" while passing through whatever signal it gets between sync pulses.

Make sense?

[zedrein]

Yeah I guess I get it. I suppose I am just so ruined after messing with fixed pixel displays for so long that the idea of CRT's having no native resolution never really clicked with me.

[NFG]

The analogue realm is always weird.  For digital children, it's completely alien.

[c0dehunter]

I would like to know that as well!

Thanks!