rgb to component converter?

[phreak97]

i know it's probably been asked before, but i've been googling around and it looks like a home made alternative to the expensive ones is possible, but nobody is telling much about how to do it...

my tv has component as it's best input, and i want to use it with my older consoles which dont support it..

there seems to be a jaycar kit that does it, but it looks to take sync on green.. how hard is it to add sync to the green?

otherwise has anyone got a suggestion? i'd probably be willing to pay up to AU$100 for something like this if it works well.

[RGB32E]

There's always the CYS-2100, and this variant (probably the same internals):
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/NEW-SCART-RGB-to-YUV-Component-Video-Converter-Adapter_W0QQitemZ220333406655QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item220333406655&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177#ebayphotohosting

Don't forget the Jrock component converter:
http://jrok.com/hardware/RGB.html

[phreak97]

the jrok converter looks like itll end up being over a hundred bucks after i wire it all up.. the one on ebay is going to need audio out connected into it, what they designed it without that i dont know.. ill probably get the one off ebay and see how it goes.

[Blaine]

i know it's probably been asked before, but i've been googling around and it looks like a home made alternative to the expensive ones is possible, but nobody is telling much about how to do it...

It's kinda funny how some people almost horde information such as what components go into a video converter. At any rate, it does kinda get expensive only because sometimes getting the chips isn't easy. For an RGB to S-Video, you can use a Sony CXA1645. Good luck finding one, though. People would often harvest them from old electronics.

This isn't my wheelhouse, but I'm just trying to get the conversation moving so - corrections are welcome, but I do believe there is a newer chip similar to the CXA that will do component as well. I'm not sure if they're in a PS2 or not.

All told... for what that eBay box costs, I'd probably just buy that one instead. Depending on what the insides look like, it should be trivial to add your audio outputs.

[phreak97]

yeah, it's got 9 days to go on the listing, but given the exchange rate for au, it'll be worth waiting.. still sucks though.

[RGB32E]

Depending on what the insides look like, it should be trivial to add your audio outputs.

http://www.gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:csy-2100
Enjoy! 

[Moosmann]

I did not test it yet:

http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/interfaces/diytranscoder.html

This schematic is for VGA, but with an LM1881 and (maybe?) other resistor values it can use for RGB.

Greetings Markus

[Blaine]

Depending on what the insides look like, it should be trivial to add your audio outputs.

http://www.gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:csy-2100
Enjoy! 

Very cool. I do sorta wonder why we didn't break the audio out of the box instead of out of the cable (I mean... if you wanna slap on your Dreamcast, you'll need to slice up another cable). Too cramped inside the enclosure?

[phreak97]

is the csy-2100 likely to be the same thing as the one on ebay? im thinking it is..
where can the actual csy-2100 be bought?

[viletim]

I did not test it yet:

http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/interfaces/diytranscoder.html

This schematic is for VGA, but with an LM1881 and (maybe?) other resistor values it can use for RGB.

Greetings Markus

It looks dodgy (horrible RC AND gate delay in there) and would need a lot of modification to work with anything but VGA. As far as I'm aware the transcoder circuit published on elm-chan.org is the only one on the internet suitable for consoles. I built one and it does a god job.

[phreak97]

im pretty set on getting a prebuilt one now, where might i find that csy-2100? on the off chance the ebay one is different inside..

[viletim]

http://www.highway.net.au/parts/converters/2005_1.html

[phreak97]

ah right, so it'd be worth waiting and bidding on the ebay one.. itll probably be the same anyway.

[Moosmann]

It looks dodgy (horrible RC AND gate delay in there) and would need a lot of modification to work with anything but VGA. As far as I'm aware the transcoder circuit published on elm-chan.org is the only one on the internet suitable for consoles. I built one and it does a god job.

OK, thanks for this Info Do you mean this Transcoder ?

http://elm-chan.org/works/yuv2rgb/report.html
http://elm-chan.org/works/yuv2rgb/rgb2yuv.png

Greetings Markus

[viletim]

OK, thanks for this Info Do you mean this Transcoder ?

http://elm-chan.org/works/yuv2rgb/report.html
http://elm-chan.org/works/yuv2rgb/rgb2yuv.png

Greetings Markus

That's the one. Direct links to images don't seem to work on that server.

[Mangaman]

Out of interest, I notice that someone on another forum (here; head down the page, look for a post by srto2) has said that the CSY-2100 has a history of being a bit shonky; not sure of his credentials, I trust you guys since you've helped me out before when I asked about throwing crystal oscillators into PAL Mega Drives to get colour in 60hz via composite and s-video

I've been thinking of grabbing an RGB >> YUV converter for a while and this thread has proved really useful so far, so thanks for all involved! I tried doing the s-video mod on the Mega Drive (PAL) with the circuit on the wiki, and while the colour and clarity were there, there was heaps of noise (despite the fact I kept the wires short) and it looked like 1-pixel thick horizontal lines were rolling over the image right-to-left at all times. I might have messed up the circuit, but I figured an RGB >> YUV converter would be a better choice since I can use it for other consoles as well.

Alternatively, I was searching through the forums and noticed viletim was working on a converter box (here); not sure what the cost would be like with something like this, but it looks really promising - any word if you're still going ahead with it?

Oh, and to phreak97, I notice that WES Components have the CSY-2100 boxes available, but I'm not sure of the cost. They don't have an online store per se, in the past when I've ordered components from them I've faxed over the order details with my credit card details and haven't had a problem. You'll have to e-mail them in advance to get a quote for the cost of the item + postage though (that's what I've done). Not sure how it'll compare to an o/s purchase, but might be worthwhile (if you get in touch, post the price, as I'd be keen on grabbing one).

-Mangaman-

[viletim]

Out of interest, I notice that someone on another forum (here; head down the page, look for a post by srto2) has said that the CSY-2100 has a history of being a bit shonky; not sure of his credentials, I trust you guys since you've helped me out before when I asked about throwing crystal oscillators into PAL Mega Drives to get colour in 60hz via composite and s-video

From the pictures RGB32E uploaded, they do look a bit dodgy. Mainly because there are so many trim-pots. The main reason to put user inaccessable pot into a circuit is if you are designing around a complex componet with loose tolerances (eg, a picture tube, laser diode, etc).  Another reason is, if some part of the circuit is expected to change with age, it can be recalibrated periodicaly when serviced. As neither of those two apply to a simple device like this I can only assume they are there for the only other reason I can think of, the designer didn't know what he was doing so just chucked a bunch of pots in and adjusted them until it worked.

Alternatively, I was searching through the forums and noticed viletim was working on a converter box (here); not sure what the cost would be like with something like this, but it looks really promising - any word if you're still going ahead with it?

It's still in early stages at the moment. I'm busy with another project at the moment but i'll be getting back to it soon enough.

Oh, and to phreak97, I notice that WES Components have the CSY-2100 boxes available, but I'm not sure of the cost. They don't have an online store per se, in the past when I've ordered components from them I've faxed over the order details with my credit card details and haven't had a problem. You'll have to e-mail them in advance to get a quote for the cost of the item + postage though (that's what I've done). Not sure how it'll compare to an o/s purchase, but might be worthwhile (if you get in touch, post the price, as I'd be keen on grabbing one).

My 2003 WES trade catalogue lists the price as $149. I'll check the latest one at work tomorrow if you like.

[phreak97]

thanks for the info, i've got a friend with a wes account, if you could get me an up to date price i might get it through him.
but i can probably get the one off ebay for about $80 so thats looking to be the most likely one. i dont mind readjusting the pots if i have to..

[Mangaman]

@viletim: Thanks for the detailed reply! I was wondering why all the pots were on there as well... I don't mind tweaking them to get it about right, but at $149, I'd be expecting it to be a pretty nice solution Maybe I'm being a bit of a tight-arse though. I know there are plenty of expensive devices when it comes to managing video signals, but I figured since it's a little box and is only converting RGB to YUV (with an emphasis on *only*, as I have no idea how complex such a process is!), $149 seems a bit excessive if it doesn't do a very good job (if it did a knock-up job and was reliable though, then I'd definitely put the money down for one). Still, if you can find out their going price and post it up, that would be ace. Like phreak97 said, there's always the rebadged units on eBay on-offer.

Thanks for following up on my question about your converter box - I'll be looking forward to seeing how you go with it, sounds like a great idea. I'm in no rush to grab a converter box at this moment necessarily, but I figure I'd look into making the plunge some time this year - now that I have a good, working Mega Drive, I'm keen to catch up on some gaming, and playing the Mega Drive through composite is a bit painful on the eyes, especially when you see how damn good they can look in 240p via component, like in the Japanese Phantasy Star Collection Sega Ages release on the PS2!

-Mangaman-

[RGB32E]

$149 is a bit expensive for this unit...  Mine cost a little bit over $60 (USD) and came with a 110VAC adapter.   It actually does a fairly good job and is flexible (works with arcade boards).  The output quality is better than s-video or composite... not quite as good as RGB... but it also depends upon what you're connecting it to... most (not all) HDTVs do a horrible job of processing 240p component... but if it's a SD CRT, it should look nicer than S-Video.  Though if your only option for getting the CSY-2100 is to pay $150, I'd try the Kramer FC-14 instead.

[undamned]

I did not test it yet:

http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/interfaces/diytranscoder.html

This schematic is for VGA, but with an LM1881 and (maybe?) other resistor values it can use for RGB.

Greetings Markus

It looks dodgy (horrible RC AND gate delay in there) and would need a lot of modification to work with anything but VGA.

What "gate delay" do you speak of?  Does this look like a good design for VGA at least or would you recommend any adjustments to it?
Thanks!
-ud

[viletim]

phreak97,
The price in the 2007 WES catalogue is $79.50. I wasn't suggesting you (or anyone else) should attempt to fiddle with the pots, they're probably already at their optimum positions. I was just saying that the excessive use of pots makes the unit more failure prone and more expensive (cause a technician has to adjust them all). In my opinion, a better design wouldn't include them.

[Mangaman]

@RGB32E: Awesome, thanks for the summary - you're spot on, I'll be hooking it up to my SD CRT (I prefer my SD CRT for retro games vs my HD set - makes the wife happy since it keeps the old machines in another room, and I didn't want to tax the scalers on the HDTV when working with all my old machines' signals). And, at $80 (thanks Viletim!!!), I will definitely be looking into grabbing one in a couple of months, along with a SCART cable for my Mega Drive I'll probably do an RGB mod on my SMS as well, since that would obviously benefit from the update! Just a pity that the NES is such a pain to do an RGB mod to, let alone a PAL NES!!!

Man I love this forum I've been reading it sporadically for years and have always found cool stuff on it!

-Mangaman-

[phreak97]

now that the auction is ending in a couple of hours, i've run out of money:(
ill still get one eventually, I've got a couple of cars to sell soon, but for now if anyone reads this in the next two hours it looks like this one's going for a good price:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370138347096&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:AU:1123

[A Murder of Crows]

You know, i have one of those boxes and i never got it to work right for some reason.

[eastbayarb]

You know, i have one of those boxes and i never got it to work right for some reason.

I second that. I got one of those SCART RGB to YUV Component Video Converter,Adapter from ebay (I am in the USA by the way) and connected my SNES to it and the adaptor to my RCA TV with Component Video input and the picture did show up, but it was shaky and scrambled.

[RGB32E]

You know, i have one of those boxes and i never got it to work right for some reason.

I second that. I got one of those SCART RGB to YUV Component Video Converter,Adapter from ebay (I am in the USA by the way) and connected my SNES to it and the adaptor to my RCA TV with Component Video input and the picture did show up, but it was shaky and scrambled.

Yeah, I recall trying to help you troubleshoot the problem, but it didn't seem like it was something you could do yourself...    Perhaps both of you received defective units (bad converter, and/or power supply)?  Or, maybe you were not making the correct connections?  The SNES works fine on the CSY-2100, given something isn't foobar with your setup.  I've tried the converter on a variety of SD and HD TVs and not encountered any troubles... oh well! 

[eastbayarb]

You know, i have one of those boxes and i never got it to work right for some reason.

I second that. I got one of those SCART RGB to YUV Component Video Converter,Adapter from ebay (I am in the USA by the way) and connected my SNES to it and the adaptor to my RCA TV with Component Video input and the picture did show up, but it was shaky and scrambled.

Yeah, I recall trying to help you troubleshoot the problem, but it didn't seem like it was something you could do yourself...    Perhaps both of you received defective units (bad converter, and/or power supply)?  Or, maybe you were not making the correct connections?  The SNES works fine on the CSY-2100, given something isn't foobar with your setup.  I've tried the converter on a variety of SD and HD TVs and not encountered any troubles... oh well! 

unlikely the units were bad. And there really isn't a wrong way to connect this unit other than plugging the SCART cable into the SCART input on the converter and then component cables from the converter to the TV. What more to it is there?

[RGB32E]

unlikely the units were bad. And there really isn't a wrong way to connect this unit other than plugging the SCART cable into the SCART input on the converter and then component cables from the converter to the TV. What more to it is there?

So, if the unit wasn't faulty, and your cables were not faulty, then there shouldn't have been any problems with using the converter...  lol

[eastbayarb]

Would it be possible to get component/composite/s-video output by running it through a jrok such as this:


http://jrok.com/hardware/RGB_diagrams/RGB_v4_pinout.jpg

My RGB modded NES ONLY outputs RGB but I would love it if I can get it to output component for my projector or LCD TV.

[viletim]

unlikely the units were bad. And there really isn't a wrong way to connect this unit other than plugging the SCART cable into the SCART input on the converter and then component cables from the converter to the TV. What more to it is there?

There's plenty to go wrong when you're dealing with Nintendo SCART cables!

Did you open it up to check?
http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/gamescart/gamescart.htm

[A Murder of Crows]

You know, i have one of those boxes and i never got it to work right for some reason.

I second that. I got one of those SCART RGB to YUV Component Video Converter,Adapter from ebay (I am in the USA by the way) and connected my SNES to it and the adaptor to my RCA TV with Component Video input and the picture did show up, but it was shaky and scrambled.

Yeah, I recall trying to help you troubleshoot the problem, but it didn't seem like it was something you could do yourself...    Perhaps both of you received defective units (bad converter, and/or power supply)?  Or, maybe you were not making the correct connections?  The SNES works fine on the CSY-2100, given something isn't foobar with your setup.  I've tried the converter on a variety of SD and HD TVs and not encountered any troubles... oh well! 

In my case, i tried with both a PS2 and a saturn SCart cable.  i got no screen at all.  i was REALLY looking forward to it too....just saw it today, in a box.

[RGB32E]

In my case, i tried with both a PS2 and a saturn SCart cable.  i got no screen at all.  i was REALLY looking forward to it too....just saw it today, in a box.

Have you double checked all of your connections and verified that the unit is getting power (led should light up)?  Do you still have the unit?

[A Murder of Crows]

Unit was getting power, connections at the time were good.  I haven't tried it in over a year as i was so disgusted by the waste of money it was at the time.

I don't know what i did with the A/C adapter for it anymore.  Had to buy a universal one to make it work, nice of them to put all the settings on the box to make it easy



EDIT:

12:32am, about 10 minutes ago, I got my first taste of semi-RGB out of my saturn.  I'm not sure what was wrong 2 years ago, but i tried it again tonight.  I made several stupid mistakes, tried on both my saturn and my xbox with RGB cables.  didn't have component cables around, so i used some spare RCAs i had.

This was a mistake.  One of the RCAs had a back connection.  The other wasn't shielded enough or something.  I got no picture, until i tried switching which cable when where....that's when i got a frozen picture on my screen for a fraction of a second.

I had a set of component cables for the Xbox hooked up to another port, so i traded out the craptastic RCAs for the components.   Tried out the xbox first with component to make sure it would come up, then turned it off, switched cables, and rebooted in RGB/SCart.

Success!!!!!  Color was correct, image was stable and about 98% clear (faintly visible diagonal lines coming across, probably due to power bleed over or crappy cables).


I immediately shut that down and switched to my saturn.  I had mistakenly left it running, so the picture came on immediately....saturn settings screen was staring me in the face!  got thru the menus and started Shining: The Holy Ark, which was in the machine....low and behold, i got picture, solid, stable, and mostly clear!

AND BUTT UGLY!!!  Dear god, this game looks like ASS!!!

I swapped games for Sonic Jam, and that looked significantly better.  I finally swapped for Night Warriors and i was MUCH happier. 

I think modern consoles have spoiled me.  I've been waiting all this time to get significantly better picture out of my older game systems that i forgot how BAD some of these can look, even in a much better picture output, when you haven't seen it in awhile

Night Warriors looked great, even in Aspect mode.  Switched to 1:1 and got an even better overall picture, but it was TINY!  This was done on an Olvevia LCD TV, not exactly an RGB monitor, but for my purposes, it did the job.

So yes, it was not PURE RGB, but that isn't the point.  Picture output was FAR better than SVideo and was reported as being 480i on my screen. 

Either i had crappy cables before, or i wasn't using enough power.  Either way, this made ALL the difference.  My SCART RGB to Component Box actually works.

[RGB32E]

Either i had crappy cables before, or i wasn't using enough power.  Either way, this made ALL the difference.  My SCART RGB to Component Box actually works.

LOL 

This is too funny...  So, it really is working right?

[A Murder of Crows]

Day 2 of RGB:

Yes, it is "working" .  I'm getting some strange diagonal interference at the moment, pretty faint, but noticeable on both xbox RGB and Saturn RGB. 


I've been told it's probably my power Supply, be it from ground loop or dirty power, or some other stupid power issue.


These lines are only barely noticeable, but once seen, i tend to focus on them

Also, the power jack seems to have broken partially, and probably needs to have the pin reconnected.

Wish i didn't have to go through this silly box, but yeah, it works

[A Murder of Crows]

3rd update


I fixed the diagonal lines problem on this adapter.  The adapter asks for 12v at the power jack, and i'm not sure if 12v is actually NEEDED there.  My 9v adapter fit and had the same polarity.  Swapped it in for the 12v adapter currently in, and like magic, strange diagonal lines are now gone!


Based on this, I can assume that at lease any one, or possibly all, of the following statements are true

A) The CSY-2100 does need 12v. 
B)  Using 12v may have caused interference with the circuitry in the form of diagonal lines visible on my screen
C)  The 12v adapter I own is no good.

in any case, this gets us somewhere, eh? 


Final Update:


Well, I am happy with the color.  Everything looks really pixelated on my screen though.  VF2 looks terrible....as if it requires scanlines or something.

Night Warriors is still the best game look wise, and that doesn't say much, considering how much jaggy edges there are.  I have to believe it has something to do with the fact that it's being scaled to 480i instead of being displayed at a native resolution.

anyone got some ideas?

[eastbayarb]

Anyone try this one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-SCART-RGB-to-YUV-Component-Video-Converter-Scaler_W0QQitemZ220358651500QQihZ012QQcategoryZ14965QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

acem77 says this actually works. But I had it once and it didn't seem to work. Perhaps I didn't have the correct power supply. What power supply works for people in the USA like me?

thanks!

[A Murder of Crows]

That's the one I use.  It actually does it's job.  If you see the notes and posts i made a few weeks back in this thread, you can see my trials with it. 

So far, my ending result is that, at least on the saturn, it isn't exactly the picture I was hoping for.  I figure it's because my TV is reading it as 480i instead of a 240 (non-interlaced) picture, and as a result, things aren't quite right.

[eastbayarb]

A Murder of Crows,

What 12V power supply do you reccomend?