SNES + N64 PAL RGB

Started by Shadow_Zero, September 24, 2003, 05:29:52 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

NFG

if by 'rev 2' you mean the SNESjr, which has a very obviously different shell than the first one, then yes - this system does NOT support RGB (or Svideo for that matter).  If you mean a different revision of the PCB inside the original-looking SNES, then no - they're all the same.

If it's a PAL SNES, remove the capacitors in the RGB lines.  That's the usual souorce of trouble (You can simply short them instead of removing them if you prefer).

Schweino

I meant the PCB revision, since there isn't a PAL snes jr. Odd though that the seller claims the cable works perfectly fine on his PAL snes while it does have the capicitors.

Shadow_Zero

QuoteI had a bit more of a play around with this today (modding a GC RGB SCART lead to work on a PAL SNES).  I wasn't able to find much info on the PAL SNES video output on the net, so I've no idea how "correct" this solution is, but removing the three capacitors on the R, G and B lines and sticking in three 33ohm resistors in their place seems to do the job.  Doing that, then switching between the RGB and composite signals shows the images to be pretty much the same in terms of brightness.
Can anyone confirm that 33 Ohm resistors is the way to go?
Has anyone else played around and/or tested with it?   :)

viletim!

shaddow,
47 ohms seems to be the definitive value. See this diagram.

Shadow_Zero

October 31, 2006, 07:32:38 AM #44 Last Edit: October 31, 2006, 07:45:26 AM by Lawrence
Thanks for the link viletim!   :)
Why does the PAL composite video also has pin 18 connected with a 75Ohm resistor?

viletim!

The resistor between the composite video out and ground is required to get the video to the standard signal level. It's present in the standard AV (3x phono) cable too. You can probably leave it out if you've only going to be viewing RGB (and using cvideo for just sync information). I have no idea why nintendo chose design it like this.

Shadow_Zero

October 31, 2006, 07:42:24 PM #46 Last Edit: October 31, 2006, 07:44:49 PM by Shadow_Zero
But it's only available in the PAL SNES, not the NTSC SNES.
Why that difference?

And on a different note, some people have claimed that there were PAL SNES RGB cables but I have never seen them or heard of anyone actually owning one. So I still wonder, have they existed and if yes are they available anywhere?

Hojo_Norem

QuoteThe resistor between the composite video out and ground is required to get the video to the standard signal level. It's present in the standard AV (3x phono) cable too. You can probably leave it out if you've only going to be viewing RGB (and using cvideo for just sync information). I have no idea why nintendo chose design it like this.
I think its because some TVs, especially older ones don't like the composite signal to go out of standard, even when its just being used as SYNC for RGB.  I have seen this happen on two sets, a old Philips based set and a not so old Panasonic.  On the Panasonic the picture would tear a little on bright pictures while on the Philips (well, a Dynatron which was just a re-badged Philips) the picture would go out of sync and roll around until the picture darkened.  Putting the resistor in fixed the problem.  I put it in series with the composite signal and it seems to work with no problem.  
Formerly 'butter_pat_head'

Shadow_Zero

Does anyone have a nice guide how to add resistors in a scart cable?
Is it in the same place as the capacitors were?
Since the N64 RGB boost cable mod (which has resistors as well) looks waaay too complicated for me!

Shadow_Zero

I bought a solder for this, it's 25 watt, is that ok?
I had the idea 25 watt was too strong but the salesguy it was ok for the purpose of adding resistors in a SCART cable...

NFG

25W is a bit on the low side but should work fine for you.  I use a 35W iron, and have a tiny 10W for delicate work (it sucks for PCBs and takes a long time to heat up larger stuff).  

Shadow_Zero

Hmmmz, ok. I once used a 45 watt solder and it fried my SCART in no-time   :blink:
So I thought I really needed something lower than 15 watt.

In regards to releasing pins from the board, with the SNES 50/60Hz switch mod for example, then 25 watt still isn't too much? (I don't want to melt the pin obviously   heh)

Shadow_Zero

So, I used a solder again yesterday since years   :P
I've added 47ohm resistors to the capacitor-less Gamecube RGB cable and that does the trick.
I've made some pictures to see the difference between s-video. I'll mod another cable first without capacitors and resistors and make some pics as well so ppl can see the difference  :)
(though it remains hard to make a good photo of tv image...)

Retro lover

HI,

thank for this forum - it looks great.

I apologise if the answer is in there and i have miseed it - but I wonder if you can help...

I bought a scart lead on ebay which provided instrcutions to mod if for rgb for the pal SNES.


well as I have read here i unsoldered all the 3 capacitors (and reconnected correctly!) but the lead still does not work - no picture at all.

Please can you help ?!

the ebay shop was no good and could give me no info.


has anyone got a wiring diagram for the snes scart so i can check all the wiring?!

the console is fine as it was working sweet with an svideo cable.

thank you in advance

kendrick

RL, please have a look at the note at the bottom of the GamesX wiki pinout page for the standard Nintendo connector:

http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:nintendomultiav

Make sure that you have all the connections made specific to a PAL Super Nintendo.

-KKC

reply

thanks for the info but i am struggling with this - the diagram has 12 pin and my scart has 20, and i cant make sense of it all

where at the bottom of that page do you mean?


thanks

kendrick

If you click on the link in my previous post, you will be led to a page in the GamesX Wiki that includes a Nintendo pinout diagram only. Pin numbers refer specifically to the Nintendo connector and not the SCART connector. At the bottom of that page, you will see this text:

"A PAL SNES outputs +12v on pin 3, not composite sync. This is for a SCART TV to automatically detect RGB input."

The page assumes that you will already have the appropriate information about your output pinout. The 12 volt line coming from pin 3 of the SNES connector must be connected to the appropriate pin of the SCART plug to make older PAL televisions detect that the input type is RGB.

-KKC

reply

7, 11 and 13 on the scart are all connnected  - R G and B.


there is no pin 3 connected on the scart end.

i cannot check the other end as it is a moulded plastic plug!

sorry if i am a bit slow on this, all my tvs are modern lcd ones, but i have one crt type portable - should i try if that works?!

kendrick

For reference, please also look at the SCART pinout page on the GamesX Wiki:

http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:scart_connector

You should cut the entire wire some place in the middle and make sure that all the pins you need have wires attached that go to the correct place. It's not necessary to modify either plug end if all the necessary wiring is present.

-KKC

hi

hi,

and thanks for trying to help

I checked the diagrams all seems fine.

i tested on a crt tv and no picture either.

if i cut the cable I dont see how this will help me know what is connected on the end that inputs into the snes?

the person i bought it from on ebay wont refund as i have modified it.

i probably should just buy another lead!

:(  

kendrick

The purpose of cutting the wire in the middle is to check that all the connections you need are present. You'll need the R, G, and B signals, a good ground, composite synch and the 3 volt line that tells the SCART-capable TV to use the RGB signal.

It's possible that the cable omits normal composite video and S-video signals. which is a possible reason why your TV shows no alternate video at all. Without that 3 volt line telling the TV to switch to RGB mode, the TV is expecting to process a composite or S-video input that might not be present. But you won't know unless you trace the wiring or test for continuity on every single last possible signal.

This is where Lawrence would ordinarily step in and make fun of me for repeating myself so much. Please read the SCART pinout page carefully and pay attention to the information about the pin 16 blanking signal.

-KKC

Shadow_Zero

March 26, 2013, 04:00:09 AM #61 Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 05:31:31 AM by Shadow_Zero
http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=37.msg418#msg418
Wow, was my topic the start of all the N64 'NUS-001(FRA)' RGB rumours?  ;)

Anwayz, after getting my first LCD TV (Sony KDL-46HX800, previous TV was a Philips PW9551 HD CRT) I started fiddling with all my retro consoles again, especially the N64 and SNES since RGB seems to be a must now   ;)   and I got back to this topic of almost 10 years ago! Guess I'm having my 10th year GamesX anniversary this year, where's the cake Lawrence?!  XD
(though admittedly, I've been more of a lurker than a contributor  ^^ )
Ah yes, reading back this topic, I was so noobish back then, almost cute  ^^

In any case, I'm in need of a new RGB cable for my SNES so I was looking back into this and wanted to verify on the resistors to be used. What I've collected up till now:
james suggested to use 33ohm resistors.

viletime! suggested to use 47 ohm and pointed out to the diagram. Dunno if that diagram changed, or else why does it make sense to use 47 ohm from the diagram?

Link83 suggested 75 ohm.

Pete suggests 47 or 75 ohm.

Apparently I used 47ohm for my Logic3 SCART cable back then and that seemed to have worked out fine. Though I need to do some real playtesting actually!
So if anyone has any more info/experience on this it would be appreciated!

I think I'll start a new topic on all my N64 on LCD experiences (seems to be quite a challenge!)


Oh, and in retro style: RIP Lik-Sang + Lan-Kwei. I had my fun (electronically) shopping there back in the days  ^^

unshe

Hi
in the Official Pal Snes RGB cable there are 4x75ohm resistors. like the viletime's diagram.
But if you got the 1-chip board (there is only one PPU instead of two) i suggest to use the Gamecube pal RGB cable. Also this is well described in the viletime's page.

Shadow_Zero

Which is viletime's page?
All my SNES' get a black picture with the GC RGB cable.
But if the original had 75 ohm resistors, then why do people suggest 47 ohm resistors?

unshe

The viletim's page is the one whit the diagrams for all the rgb connection. This: http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/gamescart/gamescart.htm (i was speaking about how the gamcube's cable is wired)
I tried on a lot of Snes and the only one that is working whit the gamecube's cable is the version Snsp-cpu-1chip-01 (a mono-ppu Snes). And looks better whit the GC clable than the Snes one, IMHO. Of course It is working whit Snes cable, but it is a little dark.

About the 47ohm resistors.. This value was what was know before that Link83 disassembled the official cable. I got 4 official pal-snes cable and all are whit the 75 resistor.

Shadow_Zero

March 27, 2013, 04:11:25 AM #65 Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 06:26:50 AM by Shadow_Zero
Ah, I see Link83 had his own quest concerning this: http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3203.0 ;)

So the NTSC RGB cable also works with a PAL 1CHIP SNES?
I thought I read somewhere that someone was saying that the NTSC RGB cable didn't work properly with the NTSC 1CHIP, is that true?

unshe

Sorry, I didnt try NTSC RGB cable on NTSC 1-chip snes, but i think that it will work.
I think the the rgb output circuit of pal and ntsc 1-chip consoles is the same.

Maybe what are you reading about problems beetween em is something depending on the TV, if it is a LCD.
LCD & sync on Videocomposite is a problematic configuration.

Shadow_Zero

July 30, 2013, 08:09:50 PM #67 Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 08:23:52 PM by Shadow_Zero
Found it again, kamiboy mentioned it:
http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3203.msg28800#msg28800
Quote from: kamiboy on November 08, 2010, 11:47:19 PMOut of the two different revisions of the newer SNES's I have the very last, which is apparently very rare in NTSC. Nintendo prolly removed or added some caps from the RGB signal path while doing this last NTSC revision which made the signal incompatible with the SHVC-010 cables.

Mind the differences between SHVC-10 and GC RGB:
Quote from: RGB32E on July 16, 2008, 02:16:06 AM
The PAL GC RGB and SHVC-010 are not quite the same... Since you are using the official GCN SCART cable, you have the choice of using filtered composite or composite sync (both are fed through the scart plug PCB).  Which signal are you using as sync?  Either choice of sync (filtered CVBS or CSYNC) will work fine on a Sony PVM, but not necessarily on other monitors or RGBS accepting devices.

Some similarities between official SFC RGB and official GCN SCART cables:
-R, G, and B are filtered with 220uf caps
-CVBS is fed through the cable

Differences:
-Both CVBS and CSYNC (or +12VDC for PAL systems) are fed through the GCN cable (only CVBS is wired/used on SFC RGB cable)
-CVBS is filtered with a 220uf cap on the GCN cable (CVBS is not filtered on SFC RGB cable)
-GCN cable uses 100 ohm resistor for the SCART mode setting and the SFC connects VDC through series 75 ohm resistor to the +5VDC pin of 21 pin connector.
Dunno if the GC RGB cable would work better with 1CHIP NTSC console...

unshe

it will work better becouse the 1-chip doesn't nedd the 75 ohm resistor between R,G,B, and GND.

ABout resistors/caps on CVBS.. it is used only for Sync, so if the sync signal is still "good for the tv" it will work. So resistors or caps on CVBS are not so important...


Shadow_Zero

The SHVC-10 (official RGB cable for SFC) has 220uF capacitors on R, G and B, just like the PAL GC RGB cable. So no 3x 75 ohm resistors there...

unshe

i was speaking about : better to use a gc cable that a a pal snes cable on 1-chip.

Shadow_Zero