Reverse engineering PhantomX

[BlackVega]

Some of you know of the existence of PhantomX CPU acceleration board for X68000 that uses Raspberry Pi and overclocks real machines but the problem is it is rather costly at 29000 yen but most importantly it hasn't been available to buy for a long time but I had an idea- how about reverse engineering it?
https://gimons.base.shop/items/81141238

As far as I can tell this board is very simple- it only has a few voltage translators but it also has some GAL chips. However the firmware files are still provided right here:
http://retropc.net/gimons/phantomx/firmware_update.html

So naturally I had somewhat of a dirty idea to just reverse engineer it because it shouldn't be hard for anyone to do. Well, personally I would but I don't have this board. Is there anyone that would be up for the task? All that is needed to be done is multimeter the chips and draw a schematic, that's it. Please let me know what you think about this

[z964]

The person who made that denies a software license to any but the original purchaser, so if a clone used his firmware it'd technically be copyright violation.

[neko68k]

I definitely strongly don't support pissing off gimons. You're welcome to develop your own accelerator and truthfully most people won't benefit from one in the first place.

[kendrick]

Weighing in here. Although the use of Raspberry Pi boards as replacement or enhancement components in older devices is pretty widespread, it still generally counts as a hobbyist activity rather than a mass-market technology application. This is by way of saying I don't know if international legal precedent related to backward engineering applies. It was legal in the 1980s for the home computer 'clone' devices to exist because IBM's monopoly on 8-bit DOS computers was a clear burden for some consumers and businesses. It would be hard to argue that not having any one X68000 CPU accelerator as an open source project has a similar financial or social impact, given that it's not nearly as much industry or money at stake.

Expanding on what neko68k has said, it is probably okay for anybody to develop their own CPU accelerator. But it's hard to defend the idea that someone else's product is what should be backward engineered. If there's a need for a competing product in the small X68000 marketplace, then my view is that it should stand apart with its own features or capabilities, and not just be a literal clone of an existing product. That might be a tough sell, but as everybody knows you don't lose ownership or copyright just because your product isn't available.

[leonk]

Please don't do this. You might not have been around the X68K community as long as others here to remember the other hardware devices he has done to help the community. Things like FDX68 and mostly importantly RaSCSI. His work on RaSCSI is directly responsible to us having BlueSCSI and its variants.

If you rip off makers, you'll find no more future projects.

[aotta]

I agree that it would not be proper to use firwmare on hardware other than his, since Gimons has expressly forbidden it, and I join leonk in the thanks for creating raScsi and publishing the information that enabled blueScsi to be created... but if his latest creations are no more public and not accessible to non-Japanese people, I think he is more to be condemned for racism than congratulated! (I have been trying to buy a fdx68 for years!!) LOL

[NFG]

but if his latest creations are no more public and not accessible to non-Japanese people, I think he is more to be condemned for racism than congratulated!

I can understand the sentiment but my friend, no.   There are a lot of reasons a person won't sell to another.  Most Americans won't sell to overseas buyers either.  They're not racist (I mean, lately that's a bit harder to say with certainty) but they do exist in a system that makes overseas sales a risky PITA.

So no.  Gimons is free to do what he wants, as are we all.  And he's free to do what he wants without any of us casting aspersions on his character, or trying to steal his work.

That's offical policy around here.  👍

[leonk]

I think he is more to be condemned for racism than congratulated! (I have been trying to buy a fdx68 for years!!) LOL

Your lack of knowledge on how to acquire his products does not make him a racist. He's no different than the thousands of sellers on Yahoo Auctions Japan that only sell into the Japanese domestic market.

I own FDX68, RaSCSI, and many other "only to be sold in Japan" devices. I successfully purchased them using services like shipjp.com which allowed me to purchase all these items using a local Japanese address. Using these type of services (buyee, ZenMarket, etc) is how most people here got their X68000 as well.

Also, a couple months ago he had a special run (posted on X) for International customers. Those that were interested e-mailed him and he shipped worldwide. This is a product that's still made and supported.

[aotta]

I'm sorry but I would like to confirm that my call of racism was ironic, nothing personal against Gimons.

I just wanted to clarify that, in general, I prefer to thank those who run their projects in open source and offer them to the community of enthusiasts. I found everyday on ebay people selling the multicart I designed and published on Github (PiRTO II, PiColeco, PicoPac, etc.), but I never made a dollar.
I do it for the passion of retrocomputers that I love to share with other enthusiasts.
I don't think I could get rich from these gadgets (as I don't think Gimons got rich either with his ones, especially not being able to sell outside Japan).

Also on buying in Japan or USA I don't totally agree: I have used buyee.jp several times as a service for buying in yahoo japan, and also bought many items from the US. It's expensive but it's up to you.
So, I think it is true that there are problems with taxation or so on, but I remain of the opinion that those who don't want to sell abroad do so mainly because of their own personal (and IMHO not very agreeable) choice.

I have created the X68KFDPi project (https://github.com/aotta/X68KFDPi) that handles X68K floppies, and I have been thinking for a while about adding Shugart emulation so that I can have a complete floppy replacement like FDX68.
I don't know if and when I will make such an upgrade, but in the meantime someone else might think about it and make it available to everyone.
Without the need to use Gimons' firmware.

[leonk]

I don't know if and when I will make such an upgrade, but in the meantime someone else might think about it and make it available to everyone.
Without the need to use Gimons' firmware.

Gimons' hardware is pretty much nothing more than level converters. The "magic" is all in the software; and he put in years developing it. Even if he makes nothing more than beer money doing so, that's his personal choice just like to was your choice to open-source your devices. There are many examples of people doing stuff just for profit (Everdrive) and that's totally fine.

[3rdman01]

PhantomX is presently available for those able to buy it.

https://gimons.base.shop/items/81141238?utm_source=base&utm_medium=shop_mail&utm_campaign=restock_notif&utm_content=restock_items

Heh...sold out already

[soviet]

I was subscribed to get an email when the product was in stock, but buyee took like 5 hours to process my purchase got an out of stock and my money was returned by buyee.

Looks like he is selling 5 units per year or something like that.
Could be cool if someone else could design a similar device.

[leonk]

You're using the wrong service to buy from Japan stores. Buyee is to buy from auction sites, it's not good to buy from stores directly that have time sensitive events. What you need is a service that gives you a local address to ship to, but they don't buy on your behalf - you buy from the store using your credit card directly with no middleman.  shipjp.com is what I've used with great success.

[kona333]

arrival of goods

[leonk]

The item was on sale today; for almost an entire day. I'm sure there's websites out there that will email you if this page ever changes. Anyone that noticed it, got one today.

https://gimons.base.shop/items/81141238

[aotta]

Sold out.
Since the hardware seems very simple, and the real engine is the sw side, it's a pity that Gimon's didn't put the connector in opensource and selling only the Pico software, in digital form for all everywhere buyers...

[neko68k]

He did something like that with rascsi and was immediately undercut by someone. There was a lot of drama and friendships lost over it. The man needs to at least make his R&D cost back.

Figure out how to buy one, make your own and incur you own costs or drop it. Kendrick should lock this thread. I'm sick of seeing it. 

[leonk]

Sold out.
Since the hardware seems very simple, and the real engine is the sw side, it's a pity that Gimon's didn't put the connector in opensource and selling only the Pico software, in digital form for all everywhere buyers...

He's been working on it for years now; perfecting the code, the custom BIOS, fixing game compatibility, etc. This is not as simple as an TerribleFyre Amiga accelerator, there's a lot more that goes into it.

If I'm not mistaken, things like BlueSCSI, ZuluSCSI, you_name_it_clone_SCSI are all derivatives of his work on RaSCSI. If all these communities want to have all these cool toys to keep these old computers alive, I think the man needs to be paid for his work.

[aotta]

Sold out.
Since the hardware seems very simple, and the real engine is the sw side, it's a pity that Gimon's didn't put the connector in opensource and selling only the Pico software, in digital form for all everywhere buyers...

He's been working on it for years now; perfecting the code, the custom BIOS, fixing game compatibility, etc. This is not as simple as an TerribleFyre Amiga accelerator, there's a lot more that goes into it.

If I'm not mistaken, things like BlueSCSI, ZuluSCSI, you_name_it_clone_SCSI are all derivatives of his work on RaSCSI. If all these communities want to have all these cool toys to keep these old computers alive, I think the man needs to be paid for his work.

You quoted me but didn't read or understand what i wrote... i asked for "SELLing" the SW, not the hardware, so it could be available for all peaple want it.
And, i spent years in many projects too, but i gift all them to opensource.
Anyway, if Gimons want to earn from it works, it's up to him, but he would earn more and more if he'll find a different way to sell his products.
For example, i'm ready to pay him (and i bought his FDX68, even if i made my own floppy emulator) but buying from his site when, once a year or so, the adapters are awailable, it's like winning a lottery!

[leonk]

For example, i'm ready to pay him (and i bought his FDX68, even if i made my own floppy emulator) but buying from his site when, once a year or so, the adapters are awailable, it's like winning a lottery!

I always believed that some of the best engineers make the worst business people. Our retro hobby is full of such examples; 2 examples off the top of my head are Marshal for N64 HDMI kit (made it years before anyone else, and only shipped a handful before N64Digital came out) or Duane's GD-EMU for Dreamcast ODE (now 100% cloned and much better solutions exist)

I wonder if this is a region issue. Do people in Japan not have easy access to PCB fabs and parts suppliers like we have? (JLCPCB, Mouser, etc)

[Cyothevile]

I don't know if and when I will make such an upgrade, but in the meantime someone else might think about it and make it available to everyone.
Without the need to use Gimons' firmware.

Gimons' hardware is pretty much nothing more than level converters. The "magic" is all in the software; and he put in years developing it. Even if he makes nothing more than beer money doing so, that's his personal choice just like to was your choice to open-source your devices. There are many examples of people doing stuff just for profit (Everdrive) and that's totally fine.

This is not true, as each greenpak has its own logic circuit inside of it in addition to functioning as a level shifter. In addition, some are utilizing the i2c inferface.

A greenpak can be readout by a devkit for the NVRAM configuration but that doesnt necessarily give you the logic equations he may likely be using to inferface and emulate the CPU.

Its a bit concerning to see people here almost have no moral issue cloning something that he worked very hard on. Its just a toy after all.

[NFG]

Its a bit concerning to see people here almost have no moral issue cloning something

I don't think this is likely to be an attitude we'll see a lot of.  This site and this forum and all the great people who still come here are very keen on taking stuff apart, figuring out how it works, and building stuff to work, play or tinker with.  We stand on the shoulders of giants but we don't steal their work.  (We just learn from it and build our own.)