PC-98DO and sound

[PepAlacant]

Hello. I'm getting PC-98DO and I want to ask to the masters here about the compatibility with a c-bus PC-9801-86 card.

I know that the DO has FM 26 inside, but I have a 86 card and I want to know if it's possible to connect and enjoy OPNA in both 88 and 98 games. Thank you so much.

[SkyeWelse]

I really wish I had a PC-9801-86 C-Bus card to try out in my PC-98DO, but since my Ce2 already had one built in I guess I just never considered the need for it. I'll be visiting Japan soon and if I happen to find one cheap enough I might get it to try this out. I've been curious as well as to whether it would work. But as far as I understand it, you'll only get the OPNA sound if the game's OST was originally programmed to utilize it.

-Thomas

[PepAlacant]

I really wish I had a PC-9801-86 C-Bus card to try out in my PC-98DO, but since my Ce2 already had one built in I guess I just never considered the need for it. I'll be visiting Japan soon and if I happen to find one cheap enough I might get it to try this out. I've been curious as well as to whether it would work. But as far as I understand it, you'll only get the OPNA sound if the game's OST was originally programmed to utilize it.

-Thomas

Thank for your answer, Thomas.

The nice thing of 98DO is the backward compatibility with 88. The OPNA sound i want for play the scheme, valis 2 , and others on 88.

I have a Cs2 and an S2 that have 86 built in, but I use the C-Bus card for play with joystick to the games.

[SkyeWelse]

Alternatively, what you could do is to try running the the P88SR emulator from your Cs2 to load the PC88 game you want to play. Most of the PC88 I've tried will load. If the game is running to fast, you can always try tweaking your Cs2's BIOS settings to run in Low CPU mode. I've been working on a P88SR setup to be added to the next YAHDI image, but I got held up with the disk switching because the only PC-98 keyboard I have is one for the PC-98DO which does not have the VF1-VF5 keys which are utilized for switching disks inside the program. There is a way to hotkey the diskswap commands to another keyboard key, but I could never figure it out. I was going to pick up the project again after I got a new PC-98 keyboard.

It's hard to say whether it would detect your 86 chip, but it would be worth a try.

-Thomas

[PepAlacant]

Alternatively, what you could do is to try running the the P88SR emulator from your Cs2 to load the PC88 game you want to play. Most of the PC88 I've tried will load. If the game is running to fast, you can always try tweaking your Cs2's BIOS settings to run in Low CPU mode. I've been working on a P88SR setup to be added to the next YAHDI image, but I got held up with the disk switching because the only PC-98 keyboard I have is one for the PC-98DO which does not have the VF1-VF5 keys which are utilized for switching disks inside the program. There is a way to hotkey the diskswap commands to another keyboard key, but I could never figure it out. I was going to pick up the project again after I got a new PC-98 keyboard.

It's hard to say whether it would detect your 86 chip, but it would be worth a try.

-Thomas

I tried to play The Scheme with PC-9821 Cs2. The game runs fine, but the OPNA sound is not complete. It lacks the ADPCM channel.

Cs2 is a lil bit slower for handle certain pc-8801 games. I remember I used this emulator on PC-9821 Nx C7 ( laptop with 486DX4 100 ) and it was very fast for the PC-8801 games. As you said, with the options it's regulable.

When DO will be here I'll try to do all the tests and I'll share here.

I want to ask you a thing, as a DO owner. The DO has the BIOS pressing HELP ? I have noticed that it have physical DIP SWITCHES on the front.

And I want to say thanks for your tutorial about replace CD-ROM drive on Ce2/Cs2. Just yesterday I replaced my faulty CDROM with a common LG CD-R drive. The only bad thing is the 1 minute waiting it initialize and that it goes damn fast spining and it's loudly ( 50x ) When I put my hand on the drive hole it's like a FAN. LOL !

[PepAlacant]

I really like Cs2 because it runs really good almost all of the games. It has 3 CPU modes ( low, middle, high ) that offers a lot of compatibility. Sadly the LOW mode is not the real V30 speed and games like SAZIRI or VALIS run a lil bit faster than they have to run, but at least playable. MIDDLE mode is very simmilar than my S2 runs ( 386SX20 ) Allows to play Arrow Gunner or GODS very well. And HIGH mode is perfect with NIGHT SLAVE, STEAM HEARTS, and it's possible to play KOTSUJIN at 30fps.

I still conserve the S2 model because the LOW mode runs very very well the V30 games, but it's very weak with NIGHT SLAVE and others in HIGH mode.

On S2 I've played very good : Metal Force, Rusty, Steam Hearts, Edge, Last Breakers, Farland Story and some others. But the CPU is weak, because Briganty, Night Slave, Rude Breaker are almost unplayable... and of course, forgetting about Kotsujin.

Another thing that I noticed is that S2 is more PURE PC-9800 chipset. The Cs2 has Cyrrus Logic prepared for Windows and I noticed glitches on one game, The Return of Ishtar... It happened too on the PC-9821 Nx C7. The rest of games run fine.

[SkyeWelse]

Hi PepAlacant! Glad the CD-Rom tutorial came in handy for you. Thanks for your description about the Cs2 and from what I gather it seems to run very close to my Ce2 model for the types of games it is able to run and how the various CPU modes treat each game. My Ce2 also exhibits the same problem with Return to Ishtar as the graphics appear to be a bit off and glitchy.

Regarding your question about pressing the HELP key down on the PC-98DO. I've never tried, but I don't think it will work because as you've noticed all of the dip switches for the BIOS are on the front of the computer whereas they are software dip switches in the PC-9821 models. One key that does work when held down is the GRAPH key as it is used to select between various PC-88 display modes, such as V2 mode.

Please keep us updated with your PC-98 DO. I would like to next see about creating a set of HxC/Gotek Floppy Disk Emulators for the PC-98 DO, but I'll have to be careful as I believe the power supplied to the original drives is very different than the 3.5 inch floppy disk drives. I blew one of my original 3.5 inch drives trying to hook it up to the DO once.

In other news, while exploring Japan on vacation I was able to find a new PC-98 keyboard which now offers the VF1-VF5 keys which are needed for some software functionality such as taking screenshots or changing disks inside of P88SR.

EDIT: I was able to get a PC-9801-86 C-Bus card while visiting Beep Shop Akihabara in Japan, which is my new favorite store by the way. So when I have a moment to test it out in the PC-98DO I will and report back.

-Thomas

[PepAlacant]

Hi PepAlacant! Glad the CD-Rom tutorial came in handy for you. Thanks for your description about the Cs2 and from what I gather it seems to run very close to my Ce2 model for the types of games it is able to run and how the various CPU modes treat each game. My Ce2 also exhibits the same problem with Return to Ishtar as the graphics appear to be a bit off and glitchy.

Regarding your question about pressing the HELP key down on the PC-98DO. I've never tried, but I don't think it will work because as you've noticed all of the dip switches for the BIOS are on the front of the computer whereas they are software dip switches in the PC-9821 models. One key that does work when held down is the GRAPH key as it is used to select between various PC-88 display modes, such as V2 mode.

Please keep us updated with your PC-98 DO. I would like to next see about creating a set of HxC/Gotek Floppy Disk Emulators for the PC-98 DO, but I'll have to be careful as I believe the power supplied to the original drives is very different than the 3.5 inch floppy disk drives. I blew one of my original 3.5 inch drives trying to hook it up to the DO once.

In other news, while exploring Japan on vacation I was able to find a new PC-98 keyboard which now offers the VF1-VF5 keys which are needed for some software functionality such as taking screenshots or changing disks inside of P88SR.

EDIT: I was able to get a PC-9801-86 C-Bus card while visiting Beep Shop Akihabara in Japan, which is my new favorite store by the way. So when I have a moment to test it out in the PC-98DO I will and report back.

-Thomas

Thank you so much. My DO will arrive in a month or so. Will be great to know the true before it arrives. Thanks dude!!

[SkyeWelse]

So while gearing up for an exhibit soon here in Atlanta called the Vintage Computer Festival, I was able to finally get around to testing the PC-9801-86 Soundboard in both the PC-98DO and the PC-9821 Ce2.

I ran a lot of tests and there is both good news and bad news so far.

The bad news is that none of the PC-88 games that I own original copies of output sound through the PC-9801-86 Soundboard II. I tried Ys I, II, III, XZR I & II, Popful Mail, and Xak. Each one of them used the onboard YM2203 chip and only output audio via the internal speakers and/or the front headphone jack. Now I can't be certain that any of these games ever were designed to support the Soundboard II or if they had music data to accommodate the extra FM channels of the YM2608.

The good news is that when the system is in PC-98 mode, it will detect the Soundboard II without any issues and it will run games just fine, however....

The ugly is that not all games seem to be compatible with it. There are some that will work no problem such as Xak III: The Eternal Recurrence, and there are some like Slayers 98 which at least in my case detects the YM2608 chip during startup and even indicates that it's going to use that as the sound source, but then freezes the audio after awhile all of a sudden. Sometimes it freezes or doesn't have any sound from the get go. At first I thought it was a connection issue, but since it worked flawlessly without me doing anything when testing Xak III, I have to conclude that it depends on the software being compatible with the PC-9801-86 Soundboard II.

Some other tests I did that support this is that when I placed the PC-9801-86 into the PC-9821 Ce2 which already has a onboard YM2608 chip, I am about output via a line out to a separate speaker games such as Flame Zapper with no issues directly off the CF card HDD. But when I tried games like Touhou, I experienced freezing of the game and freezing of the music, similar to the situation with Slayers. Removing the PC-9801-86 and re-testing resulted in the same Touhou games working and sounding like a charm.

So yeah, that's my analysis. Unfortunately I don't have a means of testing the games you mentioned yet such as the Scheme or Valis II.

I did find a helpful article though that recommend various dip switches on the PC-9801-86 to be either open or closed depending on the hardware. It says that for a DO+ you need Dip Switches 6,7,8 to be Closed. I tried all of those settings, and found no real difference. When I tested it, it was closed for all of the switches.

http://island.geocities.jp/cklouch/column/pc98bas/pc980186.htm

-Thomas

[kobushi]

First of all, the Sound Board II and the PC-9801-86 are completely separate things. The Sound Board II was a sound card (actually several sound cards) for the PC-8801 series, while the PC-9801-86 was a sound card for the PC-9801 series. They're both built around the YM2608 chip, but that's the only similarity.

The bad news is that none of the PC-88 games that I own original copies of output sound through the PC-9801-86 Soundboard II.

The PC98DO cannot ever use the 86 board in 88 mode, because the 88 side of the system has no way to access the C-bus.

Slayers 98 which at least in my case detects the YM2608 chip during startup and even indicates that it's going to use that as the sound source, but then freezes the audio after awhile all of a sudden. Sometimes it freezes or doesn't have any sound from the get go.

Do you have EMS memory enabled? Try disabling the sound ROM. Set switch 2 to OFF (up).

Some other tests I did that support this is that when I placed the PC-9801-86 into the PC-9821 Ce2 which already has a onboard YM2608 chip, I am about output via a line out to a separate speaker games such as Flame Zapper with no issues directly off the CF card HDD. But when I tried games like Touhou, I experienced freezing of the game and freezing of the music, similar to the situation with Slayers. Removing the PC-9801-86 and re-testing resulted in the same Touhou games working and sounding like a charm.

This is mostly likely a port/IRQ conflict with the onboard sound. If you want to test the 86 board by itself, boot into the Ce2 BIOS (hold Help during power-on) and turn off the sound option.

I did find a helpful article though that recommend various dip switches on the PC-9801-86 to be either open or closed depending on the hardware. It says that for a DO+ you need Dip Switches 6,7,8 to be Closed. I tried all of those settings, and found no real difference. When I tested it, it was closed for all of the switches.

Um, that's not what that table means. It means that if you close switches 6-8, software querying the sound ID will think the hardware is from a DO+. Normally, switches 6-8 on an 86 board should always be on-on-off.

[SkyeWelse]

Hi Kobushi,

Thank you for clearing that up for me, as well as the part about that dip switch table. My Japanese is not very good.

I was under the impression that the Soundboard II was the PC-9801-86, but now that I'm looking closer it's this one, the PC-8801-23.

I'm not sure if I have EMS memory enabled on the PC-98 DO. My settings are currently:

OFF - UP
ON - DOWN

DPSW#1:  ALL UP except for switch 1 and 8, that are DOWN.

DPSW#2: ALL UP except for switch 3 and 4, that are DOWN.

DPSW#3: ALL UP.

The PC-98 didn't arrive with any manuals or information so I left the settings as is. As for the switches on the actual PC-9801-86, these are ALL DOWN except for 8 which is UP. That's also what it was set at when I first bought it at BEEP Shop.

That makes sense that there might be a complication with the port addresses when using it on the PC-9821 Ce2. I'll test again and adjust the sound to be disabled in the Bios.

Thanks again for clarifying this information for me.

-Thomas

[kobushi]

The Sound Board II had several different models (PC-8801-23, PC-8801-24, PC-8801-25). They all function identically, but they have different shapes and connectors to fit specific PC-8801 models. I believe there was also a special VA-only version. If you're ever hunting for a SBII, you need to get the one that correctly fits your PC-8801 model.

The SBII for the PC-8801 is actually better than the PC-9801-86. It includes onboard RAM to take advantage of the built-in ADPCM function of the 2608 chip (correspondingly, the SBII was also 60% more expensive than the 86 board). The 86 board only has a small FIFO buffer for PCM (not ADPCM) samples, and must rely on the CPU to convert ADPCM to PCM for playback.

At any rate, the answer to OP's question is that using the 86 board in a 98DO will only provide OPNA sound in 98 games, not 88 games, because the 88 subsystem simply can't access the C-bus. There is no workaround, unfortunately.

Regarding Slayers, allow me to take back what I said about EMS memory. I thought Slayers needed EMS memory, but I'm looking at it right now and it doesn't. Slayers just uses the standard PMD music driver, so I'm not sure why it's freezing for you. Did you test Slayers on both the DO and Ce2?

As for the switches on the actual PC-9801-86, these are ALL DOWN except for 8 which is UP. That's also what it was set at when I first bought it at BEEP Shop.

Good, this is the correct configuration. You shouldn't ever have to mess with the 86 dipswitches unless you're trying to use 2 boards at the same time for music composition or something. The one exception is disabling the sound BIOS rom (switch 2), which is sometimes required to avoid a conflict with EMS memory managers.

Old hardware is so much fun, ain't it?

[PepAlacant]

I feel sad... No 86 sound on my PC-98DO... Any possibility about change sound chip and agreeing components to the DO?