WIP: Universal Wireless Retro Controller v2

[micro]

During the last few weeks I've been working on the next version of my wireless mod.
In the beginning the idea was to have a small PCB with all the neccessary components on it. Then you connect that PCB using some wires to your original controller PCB.

The PCB is small enough to fit inside most controllers.

The downside: During normal operation the whole circuit draws about 2 mA, the green power LED alone draws 1 mA! But you need the power LED so you can see if your controller is switched on and you don't forget to switch it off. 
Also everytime you want to read the button states you have to provide power to the original controller PCB. That way real low power consumption isn't possible.

So I came up with a different idea: Completely discard the original controller PCB and make a new PCB containing the wireless circuit AND all the buttons.
A power switch and power LED wouldn't be needed as the whole PCB goes into low-power mode after 1 or 5 minutes of inactivity. In low-power mode the power consumption is only a few uA, the controller could remain in low-power mode for several years before the battery runs dry.
Waking up from the low-power mode could be achieved by simply pressing the start button.

In addition, the only modification that had to be done to the controller case would be to file a small rectangular hole to fit the Mini-USB connector for charging the battery.

So I really designed such a PCB, and a few days ago I got the result:


Although the PCB looks good and it works in theory, I really fucked up the directional buttons.
If you push "down" then most likely you push "right", too. Same problem with "up".  It's almost impossible to pull of dragon punches in SF2.

I guess I've chosen the wrong type and orientation of the direction buttons. Now I think I've better used two half-circles, as used on most controllers:
http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/pcb_diagrams/snes_diagram1.jpg
http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/pcb_diagrams/ps1_diagram1.jpg

Also I'm not quite sure if this could also be a problem caused by using gold coating on the button contacts instead of that conductive carbon stuff that's used in every 1st party controller.
So I'm asking why are they using the conductive carbon stuff? Because it's better suited for the application or because it's cheaper than gold finish?

Anyways, great way to waste about 200€, hahaha. Fuck 

[NFG]

I overlaid your PCB image on a SNES PCB image and the only thing that really strikes me is the size of your button sites.  They're much larger than required, I think. 

It's possible that the carbon pads on the SNES PCB have a higher resistance and don't activate until they're pressed with some decent amount of pressure, but I think it's just as likely that yours are triggering early because there's just so much opportunity, with such a large site, to short the circuit and activate the press.

As a quick and easy test, try cutting a bunch of those traces to see if a smaller sensor site has the desired effect?

[public-pervert]

I don't know if I understood the problem. When you press "down" the controller registers "right" or "right+down"?
If you've just switched the layout, just cut the traces and rewire it at the right orientation with little wires.

[Grambo]

Also I'm not quite sure if this could also be a problem caused by using gold coating on the button contacts instead of that conductive carbon stuff that's used in every 1st party controller.
So I'm asking why are they using the conductive carbon stuff? Because it's better suited for the application or because it's cheaper than gold finish?

Some reading material:
http://www.comdes.nl/PDF/GTC/Keypad-Design-Guide.pdf

I'm inclined to agree with Lawrence. I think it's the large surface area that's causing the false presses. D-pads are finicky things... I bought a bunch of 3rd party replacement silicones for my NES and SNES controllers recently. The first thing I noticed was the reduced carbon pad size. They result in almost the exact opposite problem of what you've just described. It's near impossible to have a "diagonal" direction pushed down; into the garbage they went.

Sorry to hear the board order was a flop; it's a fantastic idea. I'll certainly be buying at least a couple when you come out with the next (fixed) batch

[public-pervert]

If size of the pads is the problem, then you can plotter some adhesive with small holes to reduce the contact area. I can gladly make some to you for free. Just send me the files.

[Grambo]

If size of the pads is the problem, then you can plotter some adhesive with small holes to reduce the contact area. I can gladly make some to you for free. Just send me the files.

Seems like it's worth a shot to me. Wouldn't it be great saving all those PCBs?

[micro]

Thanks for all your ideas! 

I've tried to decrease the size of my PCB contacts by applying some nail polish:


Unfortunately that doesn't change a thing...
I suspect the position of the rubber contacts is fixed so the size of the PCB may be not the real issue here.

I could imagine if I press "UP" on the D-pad the "RIGHT" and "LEFT" rubber contacts get tilted towards the up-direction, too. And if they touch the PCB contacts just a little bit the button will be registered as pressed.

So using a PCB contact type just like as on the original controller PCB may solve that problem:


Today I also had another idea to see what's happening with the rubber contacts when the d-pad gets pressed: Just take out the controller PCB, press a small piece of transparent plastic or glass against the d-pad and see what happens I'll definitely test that out!

Sorry to hear the board order was a flop; it's a fantastic idea. I'll certainly be buying at least a couple when you come out with the next (fixed) batch

I'm not sure if I'll make another batch, it's just so expensive because of the size and the gold plating. I can't afford to waste more money on another broken batch...

[RDC]

The carbon coating over the traces on most controllers is just cheaper than plated ones, it also keeps the copper from corroding up as an exposed copper pad alone would do that.

The Resistance difference there is a couple hundred ohms at best on a carbon pad versus closer to 0 on a plated one. You can take a 10k Resistor and complete the circuit and the button will register, so that makes no real difference at all.

The problem is that 'finger' style type of pad used for the D-pad there.

What's happening is, when you press in a single direction, down for example, a tiny bit of the left or right pad can make contact with the board because those don't get pressed straight down like a button contact does, the D-pad pivots from the center. If it were in that half circle shape, then it could only touch the bottom half of the right or left pad and that will not make a connection between the 2 contacts for it. That finger type has a lot more area for the 2 connections to be made, and made on only the bottom half where the pad can hit, so it's just a bad contact design for a D-pad. It's fine for the buttons, where the pads hit straight down on them, but for the D-pad that's at a slight angle, they're awful.

These are a couple of pics of XBOX controllers, but they're good to illustrate the issue. The top picture is the older half circle style, and the red area is where the contact pad hits if pressed straight up, but it could also press slightly to the left or right. Slightly right is shown in this case, and it's only able to touch half of the contact pad, so no misfire can happen.



With the 'finger' style pads, that same little bit of contact that can hit the board on the right will cause a misfire as the 2 contacts for right are in that area, while on the half circle style it will do nothing.




Get the boards made with the ENIG finish, Electroless Nickle Immersion Gold, which is still gold plating, but it's not as expensive as some place that is only going to plate the exposed pads after the fact.

Also, not sure where you're getting them made at, but upload your design to OSHPark and see what it costs there to have them done. The go in groups of 3, and at $5 a square inch on a 2in x 5in board that's $50 for 3, or $17 per when all said and done, but it's cheaper in the long run to test out a design that way versus pulling the trigger on a bigger batch that isn't 100% proven yet.

[NFG]

You can cut those large button pads with a knife and reduce the contact patch to any area you like.  Your nail polish fix didn't really significantly reduce the patch size, why not cut the trace so that only the central 2 or 3 strips are active?  (2 from one side, one from the other).  This way you'll have an actual contact patch size and location similar to the original, allowing you to fix all your PCBs with a few quick flicks of an x-acto knife. 

You can probably use a dremel with a tiny grinder tip to do the rest of the boards en masse if it works. 

[RDC]

That will not work the same as the half circle pad setup as the 'fingers' of even 2 strips are still in that bad area and could be hit by the pad, in fact the center ones are causing the most issue.

One cut that may work for the Left and Right contacts though, is cutting a straight line in the middle, like the half circle Left/Right pads have, and just separate them. That would work for those, but the Up and Down pads are facing the same way and would not benefit from that type of cut, so while cutting the Left/Right pads may eliminate some of the problems with them, there still could be some U/D issues when pressing only Left or Right because of those pads.

[NFG]

As shown, you can mimic the appropriate pad contact area easily enough.

[RDC]

I like that Up/Down pad cut solution, but a single cut straight thru the middle of the Left/Right pads, also from left to right, is all that's needed, and it will be much faster as it's not 9 small cuts.

[NFG]

Haha, you beat my elegant solution!  Good work.  =D

[micro]

Haha, I made the cuts as you guys proposed:


I have to say it works quite well! I'm also surprised that left/right doesn't affect up/down anymore. 
Of course, in the end I'd like to have the updated PCB with the half-circle contacts...

Also, not sure where you're getting them made at, but upload your design to OSHPark and see what it costs there to have them done. The go in groups of 3, and at $5 a square inch on a 2in x 5in board that's $50 for 3, or $17 per when all said and done, but it's cheaper in the long run to test out a design that way versus pulling the trigger on a bigger batch that isn't 100% proven yet.

OSHPark... Nice, thanks for the tip! I've registered and uploaded a .brd file for testing purposes. So with the default shipping option there's no extra fee, did I get that right? (Even for international shipping)

I usually choose Imall/Itead to manufacture my boards. The quality is high (imo) and normally the price per PCB is low. But because the SNES controller board exceeds 10cm x 10cm and the required ENIG finish I had two options: 5 PCB's for 78$ or 50 PCB's for 155$ (both without shipping and customs). So bought 50 faulty boards, haha.

EDIT: The pics of the Xbox controller PCB's: The first one shows an original Xbox controller PCB and the second one the 360 controller PCB, right? Why the heck did they use those finger/comb contacts on the 360 controller when they already had the right contacts on the Xbox1 controller...?

[RDC]

The cuts on the Left/Right pads can be about half that wide, it just needs to be right in the middle and enough to sever the contacts, so a cut as thin as hair will do the job.

Yes OSHPark has a free shipping option. It will take 8-31 days for International shipping.

It's pretty hard to find a PCB fab house now that offers a crappy PCB. There are some cheaper places, but they don't offer routing, so you'd have to cut the boards out yourself, and on designs like that one there and some off the PCBs I've done, it's worth it to pay the little extra so they get cut out on a machine.

If you ever need to do a medium sized run that will fit on a 5 x 5cm sized board, then Fusion PCB Service (SeeedStudio) or Elecrow for them is pretty cheap. Not all boards need an ENIG finish, and ones that just have parts and some TP spots the HASL finish is fine for them, like the PCB you first were going to use for this. At those places, you get 10 of the 5 x 5cm boards for $10, and if you can get more than one design on the board, they allow that also. So you can panelize different designs, or the same design on it as many times as it will fit. So if you had say a 24 x 24mm sized board, you could get 4 of those per board on that 5 x 5cm, for a total of 40 boards for the same $10.

Correct about the 360 pics. The first one is an S-controller for the XBOX, then the second one is one of the older Matrix versions of the 360 controller. On later revisions of the 360 boards they changed up the D-pad contacts to a better design, but it didn't really help as another issue with them is the D-pad sits so high up from the board and has so much slop in it. One thing that makes a good D-pad good is how close it sits to the board, and the 360 ones does not. I wouldn't even try to guess why they went with that design, but it's also hard to tell what kind of ignorant things anyone would do if the had billions of dollars and no accountability.

[Grambo]

Well, thats good news!
Does this mean that the boards now feel pretty much like the original PCB?
If so, I'd buy a couple. I have no issues with little cut marks.

[public-pervert]

Nice work figuring it out! 

[SnoopKatt]

It's always nice when an expensive problem can be fixed with a little bit of scratching 
Good thinking RDC!

[NFG]

What do you mean, RDC?  It was my idea! 

I'm so deleting your account.

[SnoopKatt]

What do you mean, RDC?  It was my idea! 

I'm so deleting your account.

[ours1011]

I'm glad that you could salvage those PCBs !

Nice project anyway

Well, thats good news!
Does this mean that the boards now feel pretty much like the original PCB?
If so, I'd buy a couple. I have no issues with little cut marks.

Same here ! 

[micro]

It's pretty hard to find a PCB fab house now that offers a crappy PCB.

I've tried www.makepcb.com once. Horrible PCB maker! It takes forever, poor communications and they're not able to depanelize the PCB's without cutting the copper on the edge - ouch!

If you ever need to do a medium sized run that doesn't have any weird angles or curves, just small squares or rectangles or anything that is easy to cut out yourself and will fit on a 5 x 5cm sized board (and they also have other size boards) then Fusion PCB Service (SeeedStudio)]Fusion PCB Service[/url] (SeeedStudio) or Elecrow for them is pretty cheap. Not all boards need an ENIG finish, and ones that just have parts and some TP spots the HASL finish is fine for them, like the PCB you first were going to use for this. At those places, you get 10 of the 5 x 5cm boards for $10, and if you can get more than one design on the board, they allow that also. So you can panelize different designs, or the same design on it as many times as it will fit. So if you had say a 24 x 24mm sized board, you could get 4 of those per board on that 5 x 5cm, for a total of 40 boards for the same $10.

Thanks for the tip! I've ordered 10 PCB's at Seeed Studio. A few days ago the new PCB's have arrived:


Here are some pictures of the finished controller:


So far everything seems to work  I also changed some other minor things like the size and position of some hole so the new version is easier to fit.

Well, thats good news!
Does this mean that the boards now feel pretty much like the original PCB?
If so, I'd buy a couple. I have no issues with little cut marks.

Same here ! 

Well of course I wouldn't sell the old flawed PCB. But I could imagine to assemble und sell four or five complete sets, including assembled controller PCB & receiver PCB, LED's, battery and receiver housing:
(battery not on the pic).

Right now I'm waiting for some batteries I've ordered at sparkfun.com. They should fit the SNES controller and they got a capacity of 400 mAh. That would result in a battery life of several hundreds hours, haha! 
I'm not sure how much I'd demand for one set. Of course I will take the failed first batch into account, so it won't be cheap. Maybe 70€? We'll see... At least you wouldn't need any extra parts besides the SNES controller itself.

[Grambo]

I guess that's the price for R&D! Good to see that it all worked out.
What's the button on the receiver for?

I'll take 2 as soon as you're willing to sell, please. micro products are my favorite
Oh, and I don't need the receiver housing, thanks.

[public-pervert]

You're getting pro at it, mate! 

Glad to see it all worked out, congrats! 

[micro]

You're getting pro at it, mate! 

Glad to see it all worked out, congrats! 

Thanks

I guess that's the price for R&D! Good to see that it all worked out.
What's the button on the receiver for?

I'll take 2 as soon as you're willing to sell, please. micro products are my favorite
Oh, and I don't need the receiver housing, thanks.

Good! As I said I'm waiting for the batteries at the moment. And I also like to test the controller for some more time. So I could sell you the two sets in late November / early December, I'll keep you posted.


If you don't need the housing I guess you want to install the receivers inside the console itself?


Regarding the button: It's a push button for selecting a new channel (up to 10 channels possible). When the button gets pushed the LED will start flickering green and red really fast. That means the receiver is ready for a new channel.
So you turn on the controller (by pressing start) while holding another button, depending on the channel you want.

Here's a little video to demonstrate the process. You can also see the activity LED in action 
The LED will glow for 1 second if a button is pressed (or released). It will glow in red if the battery runs low, in green otherwise.

UWRC v2 SNES controller on NeoGeo MVS

[Grambo]

If you don't need the housing I guess you want to install the receivers inside the console itself?

You got it I currently use this variation of the NRF24L01 and just run the antenna inside my console(s):

OMG! IS THAT AN SNES CONTROLLER PLAYING MVS???
You HAVE been busy, haven't you? I'm very excited for v2... since I see it working on MVS, I can only assume that the Genesis/SMS/2600 will soon be possible too

Good! As I said I'm waiting for the batteries at the moment. And I also like to test the controller for some more time. So I could sell you the two sets in late November / early December, I'll keep you posted.

Please do.

On another note, I'm sure I'll be modifying it so that I have no LED, but micro USB coming from the top of the controller. It's just a personal preference; I find the LED unnecessary and I prefer less holes in my controllers.

[micro]

Well, I prefer to have a small detachable receiver 

OMG! IS THAT AN SNES CONTROLLER PLAYING MVS???
You HAVE been busy, haven't you? I'm very excited for v2... since I see it working on MVS, I can only assume that the Genesis/SMS/2600 will soon be possible too

Actually I've already prepared a Mega Drive receiver. But I haven't written the program yet, so of course it's not working at the moment:

On another note, I'm sure I'll be modifying it so that I have no LED, but micro USB coming from the top of the controller. It's just a personal preference; I find the LED unnecessary and I prefer less holes in my controllers.

I agree with you. Less holes are better BUT I'd say installing the Micro USB socket into the cable outlet won't be looking as nice as making an extra hole at the bottom of the controller. The red LED which indicates the start and end of the battery charging process is just a perfect fit

Maybe I shouldn't solder the USB socket on your PCB's? I can give you two extra PCB's of the first failed batch and you can cut out the Micro USB area and install the USB micro socket where ever you want.



Other news: The batteries have arrived today. They fit the SNES controller without a problem. And the battery connector and its polarity even fits the socket I've used on my PCB. (pure coincidence!)

Forget the old Ipod shuffle battery, with this battery the controller will run forever!   
(battery capacity: 400 mAh; current consumption of my wireless PCB: less than 1 mA)

[Grambo]

Maybe I shouldn't solder the USB socket on your PCB's? I can give you two extra PCB's of the first failed batch and you can cut out the Micro USB area and install the USB micro socket where ever you want.

Other news: The batteries have arrived today. They fit the SNES controller without a problem. And the battery connector and its polarity even fits the socket I've used on my PCB. (pure coincidence!)

Forget the old Ipod shuffle battery, with this battery the controller will run forever!   
(battery capacity: 400 mAh; current consumption of my wireless PCB: less than 1 mA)

Wow! Great news about the battery.
Hmmm... if the battery lasts that long, perhaps I may go with what you have designed on your PCB and leave the USB on the bottom. I have a desoldering station and have no problem moving things around, so don't worry about me.

A few questions, if I may:
Is the old v1.1 software compatible with your new program? (as in, can I use a v1.1 transmitter with a v2 receiver?)
Is the circuitry the same as your v1.1 schematics?
Will v2 run on the "old hardware" and if so, will you be offering the hex files to update? I have a few controllers kicking around and it'd make me sad to see the components go to waste.

Awesome work micro. I'm glad to see this take form. Pictures look fantastic.

[micro]

I can say that it's 100% incompatible.
Different microcontroller, schematic, wireless protocol, rf channels and even packet size. 

[Zoel]

Well, I prefer to have a small detachable receiver 

OMG! IS THAT AN SNES CONTROLLER PLAYING MVS???
You HAVE been busy, haven't you? I'm very excited for v2... since I see it working on MVS, I can only assume that the Genesis/SMS/2600 will soon be possible too

Actually I've already prepared a Mega Drive receiver. But I haven't written the program yet, so of course it's not working at the moment:

On another note, I'm sure I'll be modifying it so that I have no LED, but micro USB coming from the top of the controller. It's just a personal preference; I find the LED unnecessary and I prefer less holes in my controllers.

I agree with you. Less holes are better BUT I'd say installing the Micro USB socket into the cable outlet won't be looking as nice as making an extra hole at the bottom of the controller. The red LED which indicates the start and end of the battery charging process is just a perfect fit

Maybe I shouldn't solder the USB socket on your PCB's? I can give you two extra PCB's of the first failed batch and you can cut out the Micro USB area and install the USB micro socket where ever you want.



Other news: The batteries have arrived today. They fit the SNES controller without a problem. And the battery connector and its polarity even fits the socket I've used on my PCB. (pure coincidence!)

Forget the old Ipod shuffle battery, with this battery the controller will run forever!   
(battery capacity: 400 mAh; current consumption of my wireless PCB: less than 1 mA)

Nice work Micro. I really want to purchase these complete controllers from you, doesn't matter what price they are What I really want is the wireless controller for Snes and Saturn. Then a receiver for the Megadrive. I always wanted a Saturn to Mega Drive adapter, but I can't find such a thing. The improvements from the Mega Drive controller to Saturn is astounding.

[micro]

It's done! I've assembled 4x controller PCB's and 4x receiver PCB's. It took me longer than I thought...


I also drilled the holes on the receiver case. So there's not too much additional work required to turn these kits into a working wireless controllers. I've compiled a PDF that shows which steps are yet to be done:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/37d5yj200bvi7e0/UWRC_v2_SNES_Controller.pdf

So if someone wants one of those four sets, just send me a PM. The price will be 75€ per set. (I checked the material cost: 50€ per set!)
EDIT: Already gone!

Nice work Micro. I really want to purchase these complete controllers from you, doesn't matter what price they are What I really want is the wireless controller for Snes and Saturn. Then a receiver for the Megadrive. I always wanted a Saturn to Mega Drive adapter, but I can't find such a thing. The improvements from the Mega Drive controller to Saturn is astounding.

Yes, I'm also planning on playing MD with the Saturn controller some day . But I'm not sure if I can ever offer complete controllers...

[Zoel]

Micro let me know when you complete another set, with all those PCB you have there, i'm sure you will still make more to come. Also do you plan on making pcb for other controllers such as the saturn controller in the future?

[SnoopKatt]

Wow, this all looks awesome! Will you be releasing the files/schematics for V2 for the NES/SNES/N64?

[Grambo]

This is fantastic. Everyone give all your money to micro when he releases his next batch because these are worth every penny!! What really amazes me is the range and battery life. I'm really particular about all my consoles' controllers and I'm incredibly happy with these.

I installed my receivers inside my console:

[Zoel]

This is fantastic. Everyone give all your money to micro when he releases his next batch because these are worth every penny!! What really amazes me is the range and battery life. I'm really particular about all my consoles' controllers and I'm incredibly happy with these.

I installed my receivers inside my console:

I plan to purchase one from Micro as soon as he has one available. Thought I don't think I would put the receiver inside the consol, makes the controller slot look empty that just my opinion, but cool idea though.

[micro]

Good, good!
Do you also have pictures of your controllers? I'm curious how they turned out.

Wow, this all looks awesome! Will you be releasing the files/schematics for V2 for the NES/SNES/N64?

It's too early to give a definite answer... This version isn't meant to be built by hand. You just wouldn't be able to stuff all the components inside the controller. I put a lot of time and energy to compile the pdf for the first version. But still, people had many, many problems with making the mod. Now this time the schematic is even more complicated...
I don't make promises and I don't give deadlines. We'll just have to wait and see how it all turns out! 

[SnoopKatt]

That's understandable; it definitely looks like there's a lot more going on in that PCB than a couple caps and resistors now lol. I wouldn't worry about the problems people are having with them too much though. People (especially me lol) are bound to make some silly mistakes, no matter how well written the guide is.

[Grambo]

Good, good!
Do you also have pictures of your controllers? I'm curious how they turned out.

I hadn't taken any pictures because I'm not finished with my controllers... one is yellowing and one is cracked, so I'm on the lookout for SNES controllers at a better quality, but a decent price at pawn shops around the area. My buttons are in good shape though.

Anyhow, this is why I didn't spend a lot of time being careful with the Dremeling of the Micro-USB connector.
Here's the album if you'd like to see how they turned out:
http://imgur.com/a/NQucG#0

[micro]

Thanks! I see that you got your LED sticking out. I like mine recessed 

And god, I hate making holes for the Mini USB socket, I really do!
I've been working on the controller PCB for the Saturn. It seems the USB socket and the LED will fit the cable with (almost) no extra work needed. Let's hope it will really work.

[Grambo]

Good to hear about the Saturn controller, I wish you luck with it. Unfortunately, I don't foresee owning a Saturn in the near future. In fact, I've never even played one  but the controllers do look very well designed, I must say.
My biggest 3 requests are my Genesis, NES and NeoGeo. I certainly am hopeful for these in the future and you can count on me as a buyer if you do decide to make those particular PCBs.

Also, I just wanted to add that I have not managed to kill either of my SNES batteries yet. One initial charge and they're STILL working perfectly