Upscan Converter vs. Console Emulator

[zedrein]

Just as a politically correct preface; allow me to let it be known that I do not condone the use of software that allows users to play pirated ROM images of protected creative licenses...with that said: I have recently been doing an extensive amount of research on a number of upscan converters that are 15kHz RGB compatible, with most of my time spent on the popular XRGB series. As most of us know, an upscan converter is a unit that is able to convert a 15kHz video signal into a VGA compatible 31kHz. I've heard users praise these units for their accurate reproduction of their legacy consoles' picture quality. That's all fine and dandy, but what can these units do that a well-programmed console emulator cannot? Speaking in terms of visual quality, most all available emulation software allows the use of filters/line doublers/scanline emulation that would be included on the XRGB units, not to mention a multitude of resolutions are supported on these said console emulators. Assuming most all console emulation software makes use of the RGB color space, they would actually be a better option as not all consoles themselves have RGB readily available. Now then, you devious poindexters, please testify on behalf of the upscan converter!

[NFG]

Emulation is not an unwelcome topic, but discussions of ROM trading is.  So we're on safe ground.  =)

The reason many people prefer to upscan instead of emulate has less to do with the video, and more to do with the authentic playing experience.  Not many consoles have perfectly emulated sound, for example, and few things really compare to slamming a cart into a SNES and getting your game on the way your ancestors did.

[RGB32E]

Just as a politically correct preface; allow me to let it be known that I do not condone the use of software that allows users to play pirated ROM images of protected creative licenses...with that said: I have recently been doing an extensive amount of research on a number of upscan converters that are 15kHz RGB compatible, with most of my time spent on the popular XRGB series. As most of us know, an upscan converter is a unit that is able to convert a 15kHz video signal into a VGA compatible 31kHz. I've heard users praise these units for their accurate reproduction of their legacy consoles' picture quality. That's all fine and dandy, but what can these units do that a well-programmed console emulator cannot? Speaking in terms of visual quality, most all available emulation software allows the use of filters/line doublers/scanline emulation that would be included on the XRGB units, not to mention a multitude of resolutions are supported on these said console emulators. Assuming most all console emulation software makes use of the RGB color space, they would actually be a better option as not all consoles themselves have RGB readily available. Now then, you devious poindexters, please testify on behalf of the upscan converter!

It really just comes down to getting the most out of real HW when displaying on a HDTV/computer monitor or not...

[zedrein]

I love original hardware purists, but the nostalgia for me is in the game. If I can get the same or better visual quality and gameplay from a PC, the sign me on.

[NFG]

For the record, most of my gaming is done one the xbox these days.  The ability to save-state and rewind makes gaming much more rewarding for me.  My real hardware's boxed away safely, and my real carts are in an adjacent box.  For convenience and a clear living room floor, emulation FTW.

[RGB32E]

I love original hardware purists, but the nostalgia for me is in the game. If I can get the same or better visual quality and gameplay from a PC, the sign me on.

So, what?  You don't already have a HDTV and tried hooking up a PC?  If you have the HW configured correctly, you can achieve perfect PQ from a PC to an HDTV... it's all how you set things up.  For me, my most recent PC works great:

-Video card that outputs HDMI via a DVI connector
-DVI to HDMI cable to 1080p HDTV
-Set HDTV's settings as appropriate (e.g.  "Full Pixel" 1:1 pixel mapping so that there is no under- or over- scan)
-Configure the output resolution on the PC to 1920x1080 and configure "programs" to output at 1920x1080...
Result: Zero picture noise, and a sharper image than a XRGB-3 outputting at 1920x1080 in B0 mode.

However, there are many things that can go wrong with your hardware and configuration.
Potential Problems:
-Video Card outputs poor quality DVI/HDMI signal, so the signal is bad (onboard graphics or old/cheap video card)
-HDTV does not accept it's native resolution via HDMI from a PC (some TVs require the use of the first HDMI input, and some TVs - like Lawrence's entry level PDP have issues period )
-If using an analog connection, virtually all plasmas (even 1080p models) will not accept a higher wide screen resolution than 1360x768 on their analog PC input!

[zedrein]

Unfortunately I do not own a HDTV yet. In the rare instance that I do use my PC to view emulated material everything runs to my 17" Acer LCD (1280x1024 resolution and 5:4 aspect ratio) But that hasn't been all that good; the screen sometimes flickers and when I use filters to "clean-up" the image everything starts to run too slow (I actually really hate the look of this option too. Give me a cheap consumer level CRT any day)...but this overall theme of this particular thread is "image quality" and it still seems to be consensus that a good emulator can yield sharper pictures.

[Alc]

Sharper, yes. Some would say too sharp - especially for the older consoles. Also too bright; scanlines can be faked to reduce the brightness, but the sharpness makes this look weird to my eyes. I gave up on emulators years ago because I could never get them to look or feel "right" regardless of what combination of filters I used. To that end I sacrifice a lot of space to old, obsolete hardware that could be replicated fairly accurately in software. It's worth it for me, but most people don't feel the same way.

The most important thing is what you like the look of. If you like high resolution emulation of the Megadrive or SNES or whatever, with 2xSAI filtering and all that (it doesn't sound like you do, I'm talking hypothetically), who's to say that's wrong? Some people watch movies on their HD sets over RF, stretching 4:3 to widescreen, and think it looks great. More power to them, my opinions on the matter are moot.

[zedrein]

Alc, you echo my exact sentiments on PC based emulators. But that's why I am wondering if the XRGB units are going to be good for me as a classic gamer who loves RGB or S-video on a CRT, but doesn't have those options readily available.

[Endymion]

For the record, most of my gaming is done one the xbox these days.  The ability to save-state and rewind makes gaming much more rewarding for me.  My real hardware's boxed away safely, and my real carts are in an adjacent box.  For convenience and a clear living room floor, emulation FTW.

Hail, brother, the XBox is an emulator's bonanza. I even have one of my XBoxen connected to a CRT, so I don't have to fake scanlines if I really have the urge.

-If using an analog connection, virtually all plasmas (even 1080p models) will not accept a higher wide screen resolution than 1360x768 on their analog PC input!

I've come across this issue on several screens in the past. I've also come across several newer screens which do not have this issue in any form or fashion. Believe me when I say that the screens you have run into with this issue were just crap, because that's the honest truth.

[RGB32E]

For the record, most of my gaming is done one the xbox these days.  The ability to save-state and rewind makes gaming much more rewarding for me.  My real hardware's boxed away safely, and my real carts are in an adjacent box.  For convenience and a clear living room floor, emulation FTW.

Hail, brother, the XBox is an emulator's bonanza. I even have one of my XBoxen connected to a CRT, so I don't have to fake scanlines if I really have the urge.

-If using an analog connection, virtually all plasmas (even 1080p models) will not accept a higher wide screen resolution than 1360x768 on their analog PC input!

I've come across this issue on several screens in the past. I've also come across several newer screens which do not have this issue in any form or fashion. Believe me when I say that the screens you have run into with this issue were just crap, because that's the honest truth.

Aside from a few PDPs, most do not accept 1920x1080 via analog PC input.  None of the consumer Panasonic models have this capability.  None of the Pioneer Kuros can accept 1920x1080 on their analog PC input.  Perhaps some of the commercial Panasonic plasmas can, but this would be an exception.    So, it's not really any of them being "crap", just more to do with some odd manufacturer decision...    Besides, as I've said before, there are things about PDPs that have yet to be fixed before I buy one...  The 2010 VT25 series seems promising, but I think I'll likely still see phosphor trails.  I see them on the commercial models... even if you do not!  Anyways... to each their own.

If my experience with the VX100 holds true for the rest of the pro panasonic plasmas, while they accept 15.7kHz RGB (240p), they attempt to deinterlace the signal and apply motion adaptive filtering (diagonal edge enhancement on motion).  Ick!

[Endymion]

Aside from a few PDPs, most do not accept 1920x1080 via analog PC input.  None of the consumer Panasonic models have this capability.  None of the Pioneer Kuros can accept 1920x1080 on their analog PC input.

And this encapsulates my opinion of the Pioneer Kuro, to be honest. They're still great sets today for their gamma, but it is very telling when the best damn screens they made were still 720p, right up to the end.

Perhaps some of the commercial Panasonic plasmas can, but this would be an exception.    So, it's not really any of them being "crap", just more to do with some odd manufacturer decision...  

The decision is the retarded notion of tying the input to their crappy scalers, lacking either the modes or the memory to do anything but stretch a low resolution, sometimes both. By the way, I'm speaking of LCD here as well, in fact it's far more common to see this problem there just for there being so many of them. Most VGA inputs on newer sets in the past couple of years are made with little to no signal processing, just a direct line in, and can cope with various resolutions. Compare and contrast with DVI inputs, housed on a beefy board with lots of chips that shit the bed if they get odd resolutions that they may not be expressly coded for, a lot of really nice screens work perfectly with a 360's 1366x760 over VGA but will die when you try to feed the same res through DVI.

[RGB32E]

And this encapsulates my opinion of the Pioneer Kuro, to be honest. They're still great sets today for their gamma, but it is very telling when the best damn screens they made were still 720p, right up to the end.

That's an "interesting" opinion...    

The decision is the retarded notion of tying the input to their crappy scalers, lacking either the modes or the memory to do anything but stretch a low resolution, sometimes both. By the way, I'm speaking of LCD here as well, in fact it's far more common to see this problem there just for there being so many of them. Most VGA inputs on newer sets in the past couple of years are made with little to no signal processing, just a direct line in, and can cope with various resolutions. Compare and contrast with DVI inputs, housed on a beefy board with lots of chips that shit the bed if they get odd resolutions that they may not be expressly coded for, a lot of really nice screens work perfectly with a 360's 1366x760 over VGA but will die when you try to feed the same res through DVI.

Yeah, life is unfair... Just getting at that it is rare for a 1080p plasma to accept or display 1920x1080 via an analog PC input (VGA).    It shouldn't be the case, but continues to be the case even on current high end models!  The only 1080p plasmas I've found that accept and display 1920x1080 via an analog PC input are the commercial panasonic models... go figure!

[Endymion]

And this encapsulates my opinion of the Pioneer Kuro, to be honest. They're still great sets today for their gamma, but it is very telling when the best damn screens they made were still 720p, right up to the end.

That's an "interesting" opinion...    

It's not an uncommon one when their 720p sets tested better at so many AV site reviews.

Yeah, life is unfair... Just getting at that it is rare for a 1080p plasma to accept or display 1920x1080 via an analog PC input (VGA).    It shouldn't be the case, but continues to be the case even on current high end models!  The only 1080p plasmas I've found that accept and display 1920x1080 via an analog PC input are the commercial panasonic models... go figure!

Well I just found two Samsungs without looking very hard that do it, how hard were you looking? One was their recent top of the line 58", the other was a friend's from at least a couple years ago. They are consumer sets.

[RGB32E]

It's not an uncommon one when their 720p sets tested better at so many AV site reviews.

Ok... No need to argue your educated opinion... :p

Well I just found two Samsungs without looking very hard that do it, how hard were you looking? One was their recent top of the line 58", the other was a friend's from at least a couple years ago. They are consumer sets.

Take a gander... my point is valid, even if you refute reality!   Like I said it is uncommon for 1080p plasmas to accept, let alone correctly display 1920x1080 via their analog PC input.

LG PS80 Series
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-tc-p46g10/4505-6482_7-33497900-2.html?tag=txt;page
PC: With 1,920x1,080-pixel PC video sources, the LG did well via its HDMI input, resolving every detail with no overscan or edge enhancement. When we connected an analog VGA source the TV didn't perform as well, however, showing softness in text and other areas that betrayed its inability to resolve the full horizontal resolution.

Panasonic V10 Series
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-tc-p54v10/4505-6482_7-33490590-2.html?tag=txt;page
PC: With an HDMI source and set to THX mode the V10 performed perfectly, resolving every line of a 1920x1080 source, with no sign of edge enhancement or overscan. Via VGA the TV would accept a maximum resolution of 1366x768, as the manual indicates, and naturally test looked softer, blockier and generally worse than via HDMI. We'd love to see a full-resolution VGA input on a TV this expensive.


Panasonic G10 Series
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-tc-p46g10/4505-6482_7-33497900-2.html?tag=txt;page
PC: With an HDMI source and set to THX mode, the G10 performed perfectly, resolving every line of a 1,920x1,080-pixel resolution source, with no sign of edge enhancement or overscan. Via VGA, the TV would accept a maximum resolution of 1,366x768 pixels, as the manual indicates--and, naturally, the test looked softer, blockier and generally worse than via HDMI. We'd love to see a full-resolution VGA input on a TV this expensive.

Pioneer PRO-111FD
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/pioneer-elite-kuro-pro/4505-6482_7-33002556-2.html?tag=txt;page
PC: With a digital connection, the Pioneer performed as well as we expect from any 1080p flat-panel, delivering every line of a 1,920x1,080-pixel PC signal with sharp text. We saw some edge enhancement in the standard settings but selecting Pure or Movie mode, or cranking down Sharpness, eliminated it completely. As usual, the analog connection was a disappointment, only accepting resolutions up to 1,280x1,024-pixels. Naturally the image looked softer and stretched to fill the screen, so we'd recommend PC users go digital.

Samsung B60/B850/B860 Series
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/samsung-pn58b650/4505-6482_7-33573754-2.html?tag=txt;page
PC: Samsung's PNB850/860 series delivered excellent performance with HDMI sources from computers, resolving every line of a 1,920x1,080-pixel resolution image with no overscan or edge enhancement. The image did appear very slightly softer via VGA but the set still resolved every line, according to our DisplayMate test.

Vizio VP505XVT
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/vizio-vp505xvt/4505-6482_7-33248748-2.html?tag=txt;page
PC: We've experienced stellar performance going in via VGA to Vizio displays in the past, so we were a bit surprised when the VP505XVT didn't measure up. While it accepted and displayed a 1,920x1,080-pixel signal, it failed to deliver every line of horizontal resolution, according to DisplayMate, and we detected interference that made text in smaller font sizes difficult to read. Via HDMI, the set's performance was much better, with full resolution and otherwise excellent quality. We cleaned up the hint of edge enhancement by setting sharpness at -1, which worked very well.

Panasonic PF11 Series (Commercial Model)
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-th-50pf11uk/4505-6482_7-33361099-2.html?tag=txt;page
PC: Via the analog PC input, the Panasonic performed as well as we'd expect from any 1080p TV, delivering every line of a 1,920x1,080-pixel signal with no overscan (once we selected 1:1 pixel mode from the Pos/Size menu). There was some edge enhancement at default settings, but turning down Sharpness (to -12, if you're curious) delivered crisp text and minimal EE. Performance via the HDMI input was basically perfect. We did detect some flicker on the DisplayMate menu screen itself, but we couldn't replicate it in other areas so it's probably not a big deal.

Panasonic VX100 Series (Commercial for Custom Home theatre)
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-th-50vx100u/4505-6482_7-33497895-2.html?tag=txt;page
PC: With HDMI sources, the TH-VX100U performed perfectly, resolving every detail of a 1,920x1,080-pixel signal with no overscan or edge enhancement. With analog sources via VGA, it accepted 1,920x1,080-pixel resolution source, but didn't display it correctly. The best resolution we could get to display properly was 1,366x768 pixels, which (as expected on a 1080p monitor) appeared relatively soft and (not expected) didn't completely fill the screen without a lot of adjustment. We recommend going in via HDMI with computer sources.

Panasonic PZ800 Series
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-viera-th-58pz800u/4505-6482_7-33234548-2.html?tag=txt;page
PC: With our test PC connected to one of the HDMI inputs, the TH-58PZ800U performed perfectly--as expected from any 1080p flat-panel--in THX mode, resolving every detail of a 1,920x1,080-pixel source with no trace of edge enhancement or shifted pixels. Text looked sharp and natural. When we tried the VGA input, however, we were only able to get a maximum of 1,366x760-pixel resolution (as the manual says), which of course resulted in softer looking text and an overall less-impressive image.

LG PG30 Series
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/lg-50pg30/4505-6482_7-32863629-2.html?tag=txt;page
PC: Via both analog VGA and digital HDMI, the LG 50PG30 accepted and displayed every line of a 1,920x1,080-pixel resolution signal according to DisplayMate. That's great, but text and other lines on the screen appeared softer than we expected, with some edge enhancement we couldn't reduce. PC performance was therefore just average.

Samsung A650 Series
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/samsung-pn50a650/4505-6482_7-33016446-2.html?tag=txt;page
PC: Via the VGA input, the set resolved ever detail of a 1920x1080 source, and text was quite crisp and legible--in short, as good as we've seen from any plasma via VGA. The results were the same with HDMI sources, so overall the PN50A650 makes an excellent PC monitor.

LG PG20 Series
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/lg-50pg20/4505-6482_7-32863632-2.html?tag=txt;page
PC: Via VGA the LG accepted a 1360x768 signal, but the resulting image of the PC desktop was worse than we expected, with chunky text that wasn't as legible as we'd like. According to test patterns on DisplayMate, the LG only passed half of the horizontal resolution via VGA. We also checked HDMI and the results were better, with clearer text, and while resolution tests looked a lot better than on VGA, the set still didn't pass the full horizontal resolution. Perhaps part of the problem is that the "Just Size" aspect ratio, which eliminates scaling, was inexplicably disabled when we fed the TV our PC signal via HDMI.

Pioneer PDP-5020FD
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/pioneer-kuro-pdp-5020fd/4505-6482_7-33002523-2.html?tag=txt;page
PC: With a digital connection the Pioneer performed as well as we expect any 1080p flat-panel, delivering every line of a 1,920x1,080-pixel PC signal with sharp text. We saw some edge enhancement in the standard settings but selecting Movie mode, or cranking down Sharpness eliminated it completely. As usual, the analog connection was a disappointment, only accepting resolutions up to 1,280x1,024-pixels. Naturally the image looked softer and stretched to fill the screen, so we'd recommend PC users go digital.

Vizio VP422
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/vizio-vp422/4505-6482_7-33130544-2.html?tag=txt;page
PC: Via both HDMI and VGA the Vizio performed perfectly, delivering crisp text and every detail of a 1,024x768-pixel signal, according to DisplayMate. Of course, PC nuts will probably prefer a higher-resolution display.

Panasonic PZ850 Series
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-viera-th-50pz850u/4505-6482_7-32896587-2.html?tag=txt;page
PC: As with most Panasonic HDTVs we've tested, the 850U's analog VGA input has a maximum resolution that doesn't match the native resolution of the display--an issue that's pretty disappointing on a TV this expensive. The maximum accepted resolution of 1,360x768 looked OK, with the expected softness in text and other onscreen objects, although we missed having an "auto-adjust" feature to center the image properly; we had to use the manual controls to do that. HDMI was a different story, with the display achieving the full resolution of 1,920x1,080 and rendering text and other areas as perfectly as we expected, so naturally we recommend that people connecting PCs to this TV go digital.

LG PG60 Series
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/lg-50pg60/4505-6482_7-32815607-2.html?tag=txt;page
PC: Via a digital HDMI connection PC performance was as perfect as any 1080p TV we've seen, with every detail resolved, no edge enhancement or overscan. Via the VGA input the story was similar, and while we did detect slight edge enhancement around text and some interference in the highest-resolution areas, the LG's analog PC picture was still very good.

[zedrein]

Wow, I'm so proud of this thread! Allow me to take it in another direction; Let's use our imaginations and envision a SNES console; It will be pumping 256x224 pixels to the XRGB via a Japanese 21-pin RGB lead. I personally have a 17" LCD monitor that is 1280x1024 pixels. Does this mean that the XRGB will multiply the horizontal resolution 5 times (making for a perfect 1280 pixels) and then multiply the vertical lines by 4 (making for 896 pixels with 128 unused lines, effectively making a letterbox type image) perhaps my logic is wrong about how upscalers work, but I like my imagination in this case, it allows for no weird pixel inconsistency issues (some pixels being bigger or smaller than normal) Please share with me how this phenomenon works so well.

[RGB32E]

Wow, I'm so proud of this thread! Allow me to take it in another direction; Let's use our imaginations and envision a SNES console; It will be pumping 256x224 pixels to the XRGB via a Japanese 21-pin RGB lead. I personally have a 17" LCD monitor that is 1280x1024 pixels. Does this mean that the XRGB will multiply the horizontal resolution 5 times (making for a perfect 1280 pixels) and then multiply the vertical lines by 4 (making for 896 pixels with 128 unused lines, effectively making a letterbox type image) perhaps my logic is wrong about how upscalers work, but I like my imagination in this case, it allows for no weird pixel inconsistency issues (some pixels being bigger or smaller than normal) Please share with me how this phenomenon works so well.

With a SHVC-010 connected to the XRGB-3 in B0 mode @ 1280x1024 with DOT_by_DOT set to ON will give you an image very close to indistinguishable from a PC emulator....

Endymion can suck on his plasma thumb!

[zedrein]

Wow, that's awesome that the XRGB actually has a dot -by -dot reproduction. I guess I could see how that might be too sharp for some people though. pssssst, anyone have a screen grab?

[RGB32E]

Wow, that's awesome that the XRGB actually has a dot -by -dot reproduction. I guess I could see how that might be too sharp for some people though. pssssst, anyone have a screen grab?

Oh yes, I forgot to tell lawernces' moderator to.... suck it! ;X

Does anyone really have a problem with FFVI (FFIII) looking like this on a 1080p HDTV???:

[zedrein]

OK, Mr. Man, how does the XRGB scan otherwise if it's not dot to dot?

[Midori]

That looks fairly neat, what does it do with the image though if it has a radical pixel aspect ratio? Like Saturn games a 352x224 or CPS games at 384x224? Will they be letterboxed or have rectangular pixels when scaled by this dot technique?

[Endymion]

It's not an uncommon one when their 720p sets tested better at so many AV site reviews.

Ok... No need to argue your educated opinion... :p

The 720p Kuros were still made well into the 1080p era and were reputed for their superior accuracy, blacks, response, etc. and is the reason that the 720p sets remained right up there on Pioneer's price list the whole time their plasma operation was still ongoing. This is not news to anybody who followed the line. Also, last time I checked, this is a discussion board, and you were the only one trying to insult. Keep that away from here. You're not even doing it well, and it's pretty embarrassing.

Well I just found two Samsungs without looking very hard that do it, how hard were you looking? One was their recent top of the line 58", the other was a friend's from at least a couple years ago. They are consumer sets.

Take a gander... my point is valid, even if you refute reality!    Like I said it is uncommon for 1080p plasmas to accept, let alone correctly display 1920x1080 via their analog PC input.

Oh wow. Building this wall of text to insulate your ego must have taken you some time, but I could swear that I see two of the very screens I found with the first two hits in my search just the other day. And what do I see here but six including the same ones I referred to earlier. Thanks for doing my work for me, again.   In fact if you read the manuals it's clear as day the mode is supported in the matrix. A cnet reviewer thinks the picture is "soft?" I'm sure it is as soft as 1920x1080 allows. Placebo effect looms large when you are dealing with people who think a digital signal is inherently better somehow, but I don't pretend to get in side someone's head either.

[RGB32E]

It's not an uncommon one when their 720p sets tested better at so many AV site reviews.

Ok... No need to argue your educated opinion... :p

The 720p Kuros were still made well into the 1080p era and were reputed for their superior accuracy, blacks, response, etc. and is the reason that the 720p sets remained right up there on Pioneer's price list the whole time their plasma operation was still ongoing. This is not news to anybody who followed the line. Also, last time I checked, this is a discussion board, and you were the only one trying to insult. Keep that away from here. You're not even doing it well, and it's pretty embarrassing.

Well I just found two Samsungs without looking very hard that do it, how hard were you looking? One was their recent top of the line 58", the other was a friend's from at least a couple years ago. They are consumer sets.

Take a gander... my point is valid, even if you refute reality!    Like I said it is uncommon for 1080p plasmas to accept, let alone correctly display 1920x1080 via their analog PC input.

Oh wow. Building this wall of text to insulate your ego must have taken you some time, but I could swear that I see two of the very screens I found with the first two hits in my search just the other day. And what do I see here but six including the same ones I referred to earlier. Thanks for doing my work for me, again.   In fact if you read the manuals it's clear as day the mode is supported in the matrix. A cnet reviewer thinks the picture is "soft?" I'm sure it is as soft as 1920x1080 allows. Placebo effect looms large when you are dealing with people who think a digital signal is inherently better somehow, but I don't pretend to get in side someone's head either.

Wow... still in denial, but I expected nothing less.   With the exception of some Samsung and commerical Panasonic 1080p plasmas (both with noted issues), no others will even accept 1920x1080 via their analog PC input.... How hard is it for you to acknowledge this fact!    

To help debunk the notion that David Katzmeier has an analog/digital bias, here's what he said about my TV:

PC: As expected from a 1080p flat-panel TV, the Sony performed perfectly as a big-screen computer monitor, resolving every line of a 1,920x1,080-pixel source with no overscan or edge enhancement and delivering crisp, clear text. We experienced the same quality via VGA and HDMI connections.

[Alc]

Hail, brother, the XBox is an emulator's bonanza. I even have one of my XBoxen connected to a CRT, so I don't have to fake scanlines if I really have the urge.

Except that you would for "240p" material (non-interlaced 480i signal, aka "double strike" in Nintendo's nomenclature), since the Xbox doesn't support it.

/minor nitpick

That looks fairly neat, what does it do with the image though if it has a radical pixel aspect ratio? Like Saturn games a 352x224 or CPS games at 384x224? Will they be letterboxed or have rectangular pixels when scaled by this dot technique?

I don't have experience with the XRGB series, but that's probably not required to answer the question - if the console outputs a standard 480i signal, it will surely get treated as such? So as I understand it the question becomes, how does the Saturn convert its internal resolution to 480i?

I'm vaguely aware that some arcade hardware, possibly CPS by the sound of it, uses rectangular pixels, but I don't know anything about how that's dealt with by the arcade monitor.

[NFG]

There's no such thing as a 'rectangular pixel', strictly speaking.  The CPS hardware just spits out the pixels at a faster rate than normal, so that in one horizontal line it sends more pixels than other hardware might.  Some machines send less, it doesn't change the shape of the source pixel (it still takes the same amount of space internally) but what's shown on the screen might stretch or shrink... 

How these upscan convertors deal with a higher or lower pixel rate is probably a question that boils down to sampling: if it samples the line at a low rate, some pixels will be lost or averaged with their neighbors.  This may not result in a decrease in quality, since a CRT generally has same problem displaying every pixel: if the mask or grille can display X pixels per line and the computer's sending X+50, 50 pixels will be blended with neighbors or lost.

Larger TVs have more pixels in a line, and better upscan devices probably sample at higher rates.

[Endymion]

Wow... still in denial, but I expected nothing less.   With the exception of some Samsung and commerical Panasonic 1080p plasmas (both with noted issues), no others will even accept 1920x1080 via their analog PC input.... How hard is it for you to acknowledge this fact!    

I can easily acknowledge that there are more plasmas that accept 1920x1080 than you implied, so facts are not a problem when your slopes are so slippery. The points you are forgetting because you are a troll are that the word "rare" does not exactly fit here when these units are easily had, unless of course you're also stupid with a burning desire to pay more for your screen by purchasing a commercial unit, tuner and all like the Samsungs (lacking other features as well), and that with the vast array of screens even available being LCD of some variety, there are actually a greater capita of plasmas that support this feature comparatively. It doesn't surprise me in the least linking to a two year old Vizio or such to try and prove your point. I don't expect someone with vision faulty enough to see green trails to deal with any of this so well either, call it an impasse.

To help debunk the notion that David Katzmeier has an analog/digital bias, here's what he said about my TV:

PC: As expected from a 1080p flat-panel TV, the Sony performed perfectly as a big-screen computer monitor, resolving every line of a 1,920x1,080-pixel source with no overscan or edge enhancement and delivering crisp, clear text. We experienced the same quality via VGA and HDMI connections.

Seriously, take your OT threadcrap to PM, stop shitting up the thread.

[NFG]

Gentlemen.

[RGB32E]

There's no such thing as a 'rectangular pixel', strictly speaking.  The CPS hardware just spits out the pixels at a faster rate than normal, so that in one horizontal line it sends more pixels than other hardware might.  Some machines send less, it doesn't change the shape of the source pixel (it still takes the same amount of space internally) but what's shown on the screen might stretch or shrink...  

How these upscan convertors deal with a higher or lower pixel rate is probably a question that boils down to sampling: if it samples the line at a low rate, some pixels will be lost or averaged with their neighbors.  This may not result in a decrease in quality, since a CRT generally has same problem displaying every pixel: if the mask or grille can display X pixels per line and the computer's sending X+50, 50 pixels will be blended with neighbors or lost.

Larger TVs have more pixels in a line, and better upscan devices probably sample at higher rates.

This Wikipedia page seems to provide some interesting information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_aspect_ratio

The XRGB-3 provides nearest neighbor (point sampling) scaling and does not perform any sort of supersampling...  The XRGB-3's Dot_by_Dot mode provides uniform scaling - each row of pixels are the same height and each column of pixels are the same width.  IIRC, when I played Strider (CPS1) via the XRGB-3 with DbD On, the scaling factor for width and height was different.  There is speculation as to how the scaling factor(s) are decided by the XRGB-3 (timing -> lookup).  

The biggest issue when comparing the XRGB-3 to emulators is that it's 1920x1080 output in B0 mode has compatibility issues.  A fellow XRGB-3 owner with a G15 cannot run in B0 mode at 1080p via a DVI to HDMI connection, nor can he use his analog PC input, as it won't accept that resolution.   Hence, if you want to run a XRGB-3 in B0 @ 1080p on a Panasonic plasma, you're SoL...  The DVI compat issues at 1080p is partially a limition of the HW used (according to Micomsoft).  Hence, for the best overall upscan converter, you'll have to make some workarounds with many HDTVs....