PS2 VGA

[Alc]

I've got a 100Hz Sony TV from ~1999 which has a few SCART sockets and a couple of VGA inputs, but no component input. The max res it will display in VGA is 640x480; anything bigger and it only displays the top left 640x480 bit of the image. I've been getting frustrated with its truly shitty deinterlacing/processing of 480i RGB and want to get my PS2 working via VGA. I'd really rather not have to open it up and mess around soldering stuff, I'm competent enough but lazy. I've been looking at this kind of thing: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Component-to-VGA-LCD-Converter-Adapter-for-PS2-Wii-Xbox_W0QQitemZ260489872361QQ but I'm worried by its lack of information regarding the output resolution, and I have no idea if it will produce a shitty image since it's pretty cheap.

To recap: I need a PS2 component to VGA converter that will output 640x480 VGA and not look horrible. Any ideas?

[NFG]

I don't know why you want to do these things, since:

1. the PS2 outputs RGB, which is better than component.  The PS2 has SCART cables, which leads me to:
2. Most CRT TVs that CAN do interlaced video can do a good job of it.  Why on earth is it de-interlacing the signal, instead of just showing the interlaced signal directly?

[Alc]

1. the PS2 outputs RGB, which is better than component.

Over SCART, RGB should be 480i, which is not better than 480p component by my reckoning. I don't want the interlacing, and the set won't support a progressive signal over SCART (only a handful of CRT sets do).

2. Most CRT TVs that CAN do interlaced video can do a good job of it.  Why on earth is it de-interlacing the signal, instead of just showing the interlaced signal directly?

Because it's an early 100Hz set. I'd be truly pissed off if I'd paid the ~£2.5k for it that it apparently cost originally, but I paid £40 and I'm stuck with it either way.

[NFG]

You know there's a difference between component and progressive component, right?  In no instance is there a difference in outputs on the PS2 between progressive and interlaced, and RGB or component.  

That box you linked transcodes from component to RGB, it doesn't upscan from 480i to 480p, so you have to force your PS2 into progressive mode and then use this box to convert it to RGB...

The thing is, the PS2 already outputs RGB, so if you can force it into progressive, that's VGA right there (the only caveat is the PS2 uses sync-on-green, which not all monitors support). 

[Alc]

You know there's a difference between component and progressive component, right?

Well, yeah. Hence the question in the first place.

In no instance is there a difference in outputs on the PS2 between progressive and interlaced, and RGB or component.

Are you saying that the PS2's 480p component signal is identical to its 480i RGB signal? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

That box you linked transcodes from component to RGB, it doesn't upscan from 480i to 480p

Why would I want it to do that? The whole point here is to preserve a 480p signal from the console to the screen.

so you have to force your PS2 into progressive mode and then use this box to convert it to RGB...

The thing is, the PS2 already outputs RGB, so if you can force it into progressive, that's VGA right there (the only caveat is the PS2 uses sync-on-green, which not all monitors support).

So the box I listed will remove sync from green and make a more compatible RGBHV signal, right?

I'm open to being completely wrong, I'm just trying to figure the whole thing out. Thanks for your help so far.

[NFG]

Here's the facts as I understand them:

1. The PS2 outputs interlaced (the i in 480i) video by default.  Very few games support progressive (480p) unless forced, and not all of them can be forced happily.  SO:

2. You're left with a low res 480i signal no matter what output you use (component or RGB) so:

3. You've got to upscan all games that don't output progressive, so:

4. The box you linked will only work for those games you can force into progressive, you'll need an upscan box (ie: XRGB) for all the rest, in which case:

5. You might as well use RGB if you're upscanning, since the quality's better (though not to an excessive degree). 

Are we any closer now?  =)

[Alc]

It seems that a fair stack of games support progressive output. I'm only really talking about them, obviously the ones that only support 480i won't be much better off than on my usual RGB connection. I have zero interest in upscanning 480i games to VGA, I'm well aware that little is to be gained by such an activity, especially since the VGA on my TV isn't that hot in any case (see again: being stuck with what I have).

With all that in mind, will that box do what I want? I don't honestly know if my TV will accept sync on green, given that it's such a dick in other areas I'd assume not.

Also, outside of the list I linked to, roughly how many games can be "forced" into 480p, via other means?

[NFG]

Sony is a huge fan of SoG, and  most (if not all) of their displays support it. 

If your intent is to only run those progressive games on your progressive-capable display, you can probably get away with a playstation RGB cable and a SCART->VGA adaptor.  Total cost: $15 or so.  Or, buy the RGB cable and cut the end off, replacing it with a VGA connector.

As for a list of games...  I'm not the guy to ask, sorry.

[Alc]

If your intent is to only run those progressive games on your progressive-capable display, you can probably get away with a playstation RGB cable and a SCART->VGA adaptor.  Total cost: $15 or so.  Or, buy the RGB cable and cut the end off, replacing it with a VGA connector.

That's very helpful, thank you. I'll get a cable off ebay and track down the schematics, given how cheap that is I'll risk my TV not supporting RGsB.

[l_oliveira]

A unmodified PS2 will output Sinc on Green  on any games supporting progressive scan if the component video setting is set to RGB and progressive scan is activated on the software.

Shadow of the Colossus, for example look incredible on such setup.

[Endymion]

Here's the facts as I understand them:

1. The PS2 outputs interlaced (the i in 480i) video by default.  Very few games support progressive (480p) unless forced, and not all of them can be forced happily.  SO:

2. You're left with a low res 480i signal no matter what output you use (component or RGB) so:

3. You've got to upscan all games that don't output progressive, so:

4. The box you linked will only work for those games you can force into progressive, you'll need an upscan box (ie: XRGB) for all the rest

Actually, that box is an upscanner.

From the ebay link:
Delivers crystal clear 480i, 576i, 480p, 576p, 720p(50Hz/60Hz), 1080i(50Hz/60Hz), or 1080p(50Hz/60Hz) displays on standard VGA/LCD monitors

Note all the interlaced modes it shows support for. This box has a chipset that has been used in a lot of different devices lately. I think it does a great job, considering how little it costs. The Gonbes board uses it, the HD Box Pro uses it, the XCM Megacool VGA box uses it--that last one I love to death by the way. All he would really need is a component cable and the box he linked to. Given his options it's what I would do. Lag is minimal even when deinterlacing, and looks quite nice overall, of course I am speaking specifically of my experience with the XCM Megacool but I'd gather this one should be close.

[Alc]

I've been building a SCART-VGA adapter from a spare SCART block and a VGA cable. Found the RGB input wires no problem, but the VGA cable physically lacks the RGB returns. Am I ok to put them all on shield ground? I'm assuming this is what the VGA cable must've been doing.

[NFG]

Use the shield ground, you'll be fine.

[Alc]

Another lightning-fast response. Many thanks, Lawrence.

[Alc]

I must be doing something wrong here. I've connected the RGB inputs and tested end to end with my multimeter to ensure they're correct. RGB returns are grounded via the shield. Nothing else is wired up. When I set Shadow of the Colossus to progressive mode and switch the cables over, there's no image on the VGA channel. The PS2 is set to RGB in its firmware. Any ideas?

[Endymion]

The PS2 can send a progressive signal only when using component. It has the physical capability to send a VGA signal in its hardware, however it lacks the firmware to do this. That's why the Matrix Infinity held an ELF to force it, and why the superior Xploder HDTV Player was later made. Your only option to get VGA mode is to force it in that way, so it's obviously easier to use either of the above rather than homebrewing it yourself. Alternatively you can do what you were thinking about originally, use component cables and transcode/upscan...

[Alc]

The PS2 can send a progressive signal only when using component.

You mean YPbPr? That doesn't match with what I've read at all.

It has the physical capability to send a VGA signal in its hardware, however it lacks the firmware to do this. That's why the Matrix Infinity held an ELF to force it, and why the superior Xploder HDTV Player was later made.

Ok. I have a PS2 chipped with a Matrix Infinity and have located the VGA option. Enabling it I still get a completely black screen at boot, where I'm assuming I'd at least see a logo prior to the game launching. I'm veering toward the upscan box since I won't have to monkey about with switching cables every time a game is limited to interlace, seems like a shame though. If I do buy that box and it is based on the same chipset as yours, could you confirm what resolution it is likely to output in VGA? I presume it just passes along roughly whatever it gets, i.e. 480i->640x480, 1080p>1920x1080 etc but it would be nice to have confirmation.

[Endymion]

The PS2 can send a progressive signal only when using component.

You mean YPbPr? That doesn't match with what I've read at all.

Well it's true. If you put your PS2 in RGB mode it will only send out a 15KHz signal. It has to be forced to do VGA, the only progressive mode the PS2 was made to support by Sony is Y-Pb-Pr--via component.

It has the physical capability to send a VGA signal in its hardware, however it lacks the firmware to do this. That's why the Matrix Infinity held an ELF to force it, and why the superior Xploder HDTV Player was later made.

Ok. I have a PS2 chipped with a Matrix Infinity and have located the VGA option. Enabling it I still get a completely black screen at boot, where I'm assuming I'd at least see a logo prior to the game launching.

The VGA output works from the component cable's pinout sending sync-on-green. I don't remember the SCART pins for the PS2 offhand but I would hazard a guess that they are not the same. If you google around for PS2 VGA you will find various sites that detail how to either hack a PS2 component cable to a VGA end or to create a dongle from its RCA plugs. At any rate if SCART RGB taps different pins from the PS2 that could explain why you are getting nothing.

I'm veering toward the upscan box since I won't have to monkey about with switching cables every time a game is limited to interlace, seems like a shame though. If I do buy that box and it is based on the same chipset as yours, could you confirm what resolution it is likely to output in VGA? I presume it just passes along roughly whatever it gets, i.e. 480i->640x480, 1080p>1920x1080 etc but it would be nice to have confirmation.

It is an upscaler, so as far as I can tell it only passes along the same resolution it receives if it is told to output the resolution it is getting, i.e. if it gets 480p and you set it to 640x480 that's that. Any 480i will involve deinterlacing as there is no dealing with interlacing through VGA. The upscaling chip is versatile and can output a lot of resolutions. The firmware in every box that I have seen it used in is very different however. A review of the XCM Megacool is here, with a scan of the "manual," more like a small leaflet. It shows that box supports 640x480 at 60Hz. I don't know about the box you linked to, the only info I have on that is what you see already in the auction. The HD Box Pro supports 640x480 as well, but it also only supports at 60Hz, I've no idea if you require 50Hz for your TV but I guess if 60Hz will be all you need then it  would work. It looks cheaper than all the others, including the bare Gonbes board, and 640x480 being the lowest VGA resolution around, is pretty likely to be there.

[Alc]

Well it's true. If you put your PS2 in RGB mode it will only send out a 15KHz signal. It has to be forced to do VGA, the only progressive mode the PS2 was made to support by Sony is Y-Pb-Pr--via component.

On a stock, unmodified PS2 set to RGB in firmware and connected with the correct VGA cable, when a game is shifted into progressive mode (either at boot or in the menu) the PS2 should switch into 31KHz SoG RGB. Am I right?

The VGA output works from the component cable's pinout sending sync-on-green. I don't remember the SCART pins for the PS2 offhand but I would hazard a guess that they are not the same.

It's pins 9, 11 and 12 on the PSX connector for both RGB and YPbPr.

If you google around for PS2 VGA you will find various sites that detail how to either hack a PS2 component cable to a VGA end or to create a dongle from its RCA plugs.

Having checked a schematic it looks like I might need Sync (and a 680k resistor) in addition to the RGB lines and their grounds (? I thought the whole point was that it was using Green for sync). Fuck it, I've had enough if all this - I'm just going to get one of those boxes.

It is an upscaler, so as far as I can tell it only passes along the same resolution it receives if it is told to output the resolution it is getting, i.e. if it gets 480p and you set it to 640x480 that's that. Any 480i will involve deinterlacing as there is no dealing with interlacing through VGA. The upscaling chip is versatile and can output a lot of resolutions. The firmware in every box that I have seen it used in is very different however. A review of the XCM Megacool is here, with a scan of the "manual," more like a small leaflet. It shows that box supports 640x480 at 60Hz. I don't know about the box you linked to, the only info I have on that is what you see already in the auction. The HD Box Pro supports 640x480 as well, but it also only supports at 60Hz, I've no idea if you require 50Hz for your TV but I guess if 60Hz will be all you need then it  would work. It looks cheaper than all the others, including the bare Gonbes board, and 640x480 being the lowest VGA resolution around, is pretty likely to be there.

Ok, thanks.

[l_oliveira]

The PS2 can send a progressive signal only when using component. It has the physical capability to send a VGA signal in its hardware, however it lacks the firmware to do this. That's why the Matrix Infinity held an ELF to force it, and why the superior Xploder HDTV Player was later made. Your only option to get VGA mode is to force it in that way, so it's obviously easier to use either of the above rather than homebrewing it yourself. Alternatively you can do what you were thinking about originally, use component cables and transcode/upscan...

Man it works *just* by setting RGB on the component settings at the "System Settings" option screen and then turning progressive scan on your game. What Matrix mod (it was not a elf but some custom code on the chip itself that applied some patch on the system RAM) and the other VGA hacks  do is force the SoG setting ignoring the game original video settings and the PS2 eeprom settings as well. 

That's useful on games that do not support progressive scan. 
You don't need to hack anything to do this.
All you need is either the official VGA adapter (from the linux kit) or get a VGA monitor with BNC inputs.  I use a Phillips Brilliance 109 (19 inch CRT VGA monitor) a set of 5 BNC to RCA adapters and the official component cable. Don't even need a modchip to play Shadow of the Colossus in VGA on that setup.

The drawback is that you can't see anything on the VGa display until progressive is enabled.

[dimensionxor]

I_oliveira is correct, when the video mode is set to RGB in the system menu, progressive enabled games should output RGsB on pins 9, 11, and 12 without any force VGA hacks.

One convenient thing about the ps2 a/v port is that it doesn't use jumper pins to select video modes based on cable type, it just outputs all modes simultaneously. Official sony cables remove the extra unused pins in the male connector (leaving only those required for each specific cable type). However many cheap third party cables leave all the connector pins intact, making them ideal for use as multi-mode cables

I don't have a TV, so I use an LCD VGA monitor as a display for the ps2. The configuration I have is a little convoluted, but basically I use a ViewSonic N6 video processor to scale all interlaced signals from the S-video out of the ps2 to VGA. The output of the N6 goes into a passive VGA switch box to which the RGB out of the ps2 is also directly connected. The output of the switch box then connects directly to the monitor. I play all interlaced games through the N6, and hit the VGA switch when I want to enable progressive scan.

[l_oliveira]

Oh and I forgot to mention that the PS2 goes up to 1080i on that configuration.  The only game that can go up to 1080i is Gran Turismo 4 and it's 720p on the menus but 1080i on the race. I have no idea why it switches back to 720p on the menus. 

I happen to use the PS3 on this same way but the PS3 will enforce an software programmed/artificial restriction of 480P on RGB SoG mode while using the PS3 OS.  That does not happen when using Linux on the PS3 and you're free to go whatever resolution you want.


My CRT goes up to 1920x1440.