S-Video on PAL N64 (pics, details inside)

[albino_vulpix]

Working with Link83's observations in this thread, I went ahead and added a hard-wired s-video cable to my 64. For whatever reason, Nintendo left out components from PAL 64s needed to get a good s-video signal, so the Y and C from the AV-out isn't suitable. The luma needs a 74ohm resistor to ground, and a 220uF capacitor in series, while the chroma needs 75 to ground and 68nF in series. So I get the parts from my local Dick Smith (they didn't have any 68nF caps, typical of them. I just used 2 33s in parallel) and put it together. The key difference here is a complete lack of dot-crawl. However, thanks to Nintendo's awesome (read: not that awesome) anti-aliasing, this is probably the most not-so-worth-it video mod I've ever done.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v144/albino_vulpix/100_4889.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v144/albino_vulpix/100_4890.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v144/albino_vulpix/100_4892.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v144/albino_vulpix/100_4893.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v144/albino_vulpix/100_4895.jpg


And of course, the comparison pics:









The pics don't show the true extent of the difference, but you get the idea.

[Link83]

Im glad my info was of help to someone  Even though its only for S-Video

I had intended to do this myself and put the circuit inside an actual S-Video Cable, but havent got round to it yet as I have been more interested in the N64 RGB mods. I think it would be useful information for the Wiki though if someone wanted to add it (I may try and add it myself if no-ones interested, but I havent really used a Wiki before and am worried I might screw something up!)

If you try using an 'NTSC' S-Video lead the output is overbright and washed out, I looked everywhere for a 'PAL' S-Video and couldnt find one anywhere (and I looked on every European eBay site) so I very much doubt they existed.

This thread is what got me interested in the problem, although they didnt seem to use the same solution:-
http://assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12169

I think its a shame that Nintendo decided to 'region lock' video cables - it just takes region locking to the extreme (and I cant see any other reason why they would do it other than region locking) It meant that many PAL N64 users didnt even get a decent(ish) S-Video picture from their N64 and had to put up with the Composite/RF output.

Its also interesting to note that almost all third-party Composite AV cables are designed for the NTSC market aswell, so also miss out the 75ohm resistor and 220uf capacitor - many people dont realise this and wonder why their composite picture doesnt look very good (Not that composite looks great anyway!) Also many import gamers often get their nintendo cables muddled up aswell and dont realise it makes a difference.

[albino_vulpix]

I've added some info to the wiki: http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:nintendomultiav

[Jeroen1000]

I'm in the same boat here and I can confirm that when buying a S-video cable off ebay (very cheap) you get the netting / masking error. The error is very bad for the PQ to the extent I would never consider leaving it this way. The picture is obviously more sharp (when viewing it on a 42" plasma the difference is really immense) compared to composite. Composite is very blurry and in my opnion not really playable either (people actually said they had gotten dizzy from playing).

So, would anyone be willing to explain in details how I can overcome this issue? I'm not going to solder it myself, but let a pro handle it, but I would require some detailed instructions and confirmation my board layout is the same.

[Link83]

Hi there,
If you have got a PAL N64 then you will definitely have missing components off the S-Video line - I have now seen every revision of PAL N64 and the components are always missing (in fact it can apparently be even worse in later PAL N64 revisons as they use a different video chip which sometimes wont even show any S-Video picture at all without these components!)

If you want to confirm if yours is like this for yourself you can look at your N64 motherboard in the same position as shown in the photos I took at the top of  this threads page:-
http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3203.40

I also made this diagram a while ago but never got around to posting it anywhere:-


Maybe I should add it to the Wiki somewhere 

Hope that helps 

[Jeroen1000]

You're great! Even I understand that diagram .

I hope you don't mind a follow up question. What actually causes the netting? Is it the voltage from the chroma line that disrupts (interferes) with that of the luma line? Or something in the likes.
As I understand it, it must have something to do with cross cable interference.

[Link83]

Glad it helps 

To be honest I have no idea what causes the dots/netting/masking.  When I used an S-Video cable with the components still missing with my PAL N64 on my CRT TV I just got a washed-out overbright picture, no dots or netting as far as I can remember.

It could be that because the Luma/Chroma signals on a PAL N64 are not at the 'correct levels' your video processor is having trouble processing the signals, so perhaps the dots/netting is being added during the processing stage due to the incorrect signal levels.

Alternatively, aswell as the missing components, it could be that your S-Video cable just isnt well shielded enough. Almost all third party Nintendo S-Video cables I have bought have been quite poorly shielded  (and poorly made to be honest) Although it really depends on how much EMI/RFI interference is nearby to cause any noticeable image degradation. The official Nintendo S-Video cable is well shielded but is really hard to find as it was only sold at retail in Japan, and in the USA it was only sold online 

<EDIT> I also came across this thread from another forum:-
http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=123551
Sounds like a similar issue, and somebody at the bottom of the thread said they solved it with a higher quality cable so it could indeed be the cable aswell.

I dont usually recommend 'Monster cables' but in this case they may be you best option outside of the official Nintendo S-Video cable. They made a pretty good quality Gamecube S-Video cable which will work with the N64 aswell:-
http://www.monstercable.com/productdisplay.asp?pin=1950
and its usually available on eBay for less than $10
...Only problem is you cant open up the connector to add the extra components to the cable, so if your going to use it with a PAL N64 you would need to add the components inside the console instead.

[albino_vulpix]

My input on the netting issue: I don't think it's related to cable quality, but with the signals themselves. The patterns seem too coherent to be interference.

[Jeroen1000]

Monster cables are usually very overpriced but do seem to provide a very acceptable alternative.
I'm going to look for an S-video SCART connector to rule out the video processor as being the culprit.  Since every TV over here has SCART testing won't be a problem then.
Then I'll try the more expensive Monster cable.  Finally, I'll try the fix with the poor and the good cable.
Finding this fault is at least as much fun as fixing it

I do support the guess the patterns are too coherent, a poor quality cable will only emphasize the problem.

[zedrein]

That's a PAL N64 you say? I noticed on your pics that the RGB pins don't appear to be connected. I thought that PAL region got RGB on their consoles?

[Endymion]

Not with the N64, baffling I know.

[mugenmidget]

My input on the netting issue: I don't think it's related to cable quality, but with the signals themselves. The patterns seem too coherent to be interference.

I think I may be running into the same issues as you on a Pikachu NTSC N64 with S-Video.  It doesn't look like interference but just a really bad attempt at anti-aliasing.  If I play Star Fox 64 and pause at random intervals, there are white dots that scatter into different positions around the box edges, and they only change positions after I unpause and repause (AKA they're adjusting to the subtle changes in the background).

I'll have to see if this happens with my other N64s...

EDIT: Strange, when I use a different model N64 (it's black, should be close to "launch") the picture appears sharper and there's less jaggies.  Did the video capabilities degrade with later models or am I just a placebo munchin' fool?

[Shadow_Zero]

To be honest I have no idea what causes the dots/netting/masking.  When I used an S-Video cable with the components still missing with my PAL N64 on my CRT TV I just got a washed-out overbright picture, no dots or netting as far as I can remember.

This is interesting, since I can't say using s-video on my PAL N64 consoles gives an overbright picture. It's actually darker and less colourful! I think I've got 3 different s-video cables, so I'll try the others as well.

Is it a fact all the SNES/N64/GC s-video cables are the same? Here in Holland there were quite some retailers which sold a Logic3 s-video cable, claiming to work with GC, N64 and SNES. If I recall correctly, Logic3 is/was an UK company, so makes me wonder if they truly made something for the PAL consoles. Then again, since PAL GC doesn't support s-video at all, I guess they didn't know what they were doing  ;P


Can a French N64 be s-video modded? (it doesn't output s-video at all out of the box)

[Shadow_Zero]

Ok, I have experienced a difference in my s-video cables!
I've got a Logic3 and a purple s-video cable (could've been Blaze), which were sold in the Netherlands as Gamecube cables. They have a lot of 'interference', but mind you that the SNES does not get any interference and I've just noticed it depends on the colour or something. For example, with Mario 64 the yellow road doesn't have this interference (but the green grass/trees, the water and the menu have).

The best cable is the one I got from Play-Asia back in the days. It's only got some minor interference. So what's the deal here? There were no PAL s-video cables, is this a difference between a NTSC GC s-video cable and NTSC N64 cable?

EDIT:
Btw, the 'good' cable is the only cable without composite plug, so maybe that's a cause for interference?

EDIT 2:
Interesting:

If you see a mesh pattern in S-Video, it's because the cable itself is not actually passing Chroma/Luminance into the S-Video plug. They're passing COMPOSITE on the Luminance pin instead. If you were to take a multimeter to the Composite plug and to one of the top pins of the S-Video plug(not too sure which), you'd hear your multimeter beep, indicating there's a connection between the Luminance pin on the S-Video connector and Composite. A lot of dual Composite/S-Video cables are like this(I was burned by one of those cables, but it was for the Dreamcast), though my MadCatz Super NES/Nintendo 64/GameCube/PlayStation/Xbox dual Composite/S-Video cable actually passes true S-Video into the S-Video connector(I can confirm this as I don't get any video when using the S-Video plug on my A/V modded Top-Loader NES, AV Famicom or Super Famicom Jr., none of which output S-Video), however on my Super NES, it induces some video noise in the audio signal which is typically almost inaudible on the Super NES when I use standard Nintendo Composite cables.

Source: http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?157562-Any-recommendations-on-an-s-video-cable-for-SNES-N64-GC&p=1866766&viewfull=1#post1866766

EDIT 3:
If anyone fancies the official s-video cable (at 100 bucks): http://www.ebay.nl/itm/NINTENDO-GAMECUBE-S-Video-Cable-/230966451135?pt=US_Action_Figures&hash=item35c6ac5bbf   

[albino_vulpix]

I'd say the interference you're seeing is due to cable quality. When I initially modified my N64 as in the images above, I just ran a length of audio cable from the console to an s-video plug. Looked fine on my CRT, but the noise was very apparent playing on our newer, huge plasma. I replaced it with a socket mounted to the console and a proper cable. No more noise. I've had a few cheap PS2 s-video cables with noise on the picture, so maybe s-video is more susceptible to it?

[Shadow_Zero]

Hmmmz, ok. I would kinda relate to your earlier post:

My input on the netting issue: I don't think it's related to cable quality, but with the signals themselves. The patterns seem too coherent to be interference.

Cause this is also very coherent for me and in Mario 64 it also depends a lot on the colour and if your moving or standing still.

[albino_vulpix]

I have a feeling I've described 2 different things. I'll fire up the N64 today and see if the "netting" I was talking about is still present.

[albino_vulpix]

So for the first time in a while, I turned on the N64 to see if I can clear up the interference issue.

I found two things. First, I ended my first post in this thread saying this is the most not-so-worth-it video mod. Disregard that! On the big TV, the elimination of dot crawl and overall sharpness is defintely apparent.

Second, I also described "netting/masking" earlier on. Turns out what I was seeing was in the composite video the whole time, I simply didn't see it on the smaller TV! So the patterns I was seeing were part of the textures or something. With my current mod setup, there is no interference whatsoever.

[Shadow_Zero]

Perhaps I should understand the terminology better. With dots/netting/masking issue, is the same issue meant, or are it 3 different issues? Can you describe or show what it looks like?

And to extent that, I've come across these terms:

Grid / chickenwire / checkerboard pattern / diagonal lines / X pattern hatch effect / netting error / masking error / mesh pattern effect / crosshatching / running ants

All the same issue? Or different issues? And this is not for CRT tv's, only flat screens?

[Shadow_Zero]

I performed the s-video improvement/missing component mod on my PAL N64 with a friend of mine. Now I have black & white screen, no colour. Anyone see anything off in this?

[Fix_Metal]

I performed the s-video mod on my PAL N64 with a friend of mine. Now I have black & white screen, no colour. Anyone see anything

That's what happens when the TV doesn't support s-video, actually.

[Shadow_Zero]

My tv's support s-video. It was in colour before the mod. And for the record, composite is still in colour.

[Fix_Metal]

My tv's support s-video. It was in colour before the mod. And for the record, composite is still in colour.

Then something is wrong on the C line (Chrominance) I suppose.

[Shadow_Zero]

Ok, tried to fix it this weekend with my mate, but resoldering everything resulted in no s-video image at all (composite was fine). Wiring it directly again and it worked again. Trying this mod again without the 2 resistors had better image (color) quality but resulted in a lot of interference lines.

So what's the deal here. Do I have an other PAL revision or something?
I found an other source with an other mod I could try:
http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?12169-PAL-N64-s-video-problem&p=263540&viewfull=1#post263540
Radorn wrote:

From my personal experience with this same problem, all you have to do is use a 75ohm resistor to bridge Y(luma) and ground. Do not bridge crhoma!
Since there doesn't seem to be PAL s-video cables (all s-video cables I have bought, even in local stores, were NTSC style), you can probably just solder it directly on the console and save your cable's original form so it also works on ntsc machines.

[albino_vulpix]

Must some sort of connection issue. In the first photo you posted, were the original traces to the AV socket cut?

[Shadow_Zero]

Yep, the traces were cut! (we started with that)

Not sure if it matters, but my PAL N64:
NUP10009929
NUS-001 (EUR)
NUS-CPU(P)-01
DENC-NUS

[AlmostOriginal]

I modded Link83s S-video fix. (I made a full wiring diagram and added the composite mod)

[Noobsaibot21]

FWIW, there's an easier solution to this for PAL gamers

http://www.robwebb1.plus.com/n64/n64.htm

Make sure to select the PAL specific modified cable. 

[Shadow_Zero]

I prefer using the same cable for all my Nintendo consoles, so I rather mod the PAL N64.

[Shadow_Zero]

Ok, tried to fix it this weekend with my mate, but resoldering everything resulted in no s-video image at all (composite was fine). Wiring it directly again and it worked again. Trying this mod again without the 2 resistors had better image (color) quality but resulted in a lot of interference lines.

So what's the deal here. Do I have an other PAL revision or something?
I found an other source with an other mod I could try:
http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?12169-PAL-N64-s-video-problem&p=263540&viewfull=1#post263540
Radorn wrote:

From my personal experience with this same problem, all you have to do is use a 75ohm resistor to bridge Y(luma) and ground. Do not bridge crhoma!
Since there doesn't seem to be PAL s-video cables (all s-video cables I have bought, even in local stores, were NTSC style), you can probably just solder it directly on the console and save your cable's original form so it also works on ntsc machines.

Tried a 75ohm resistor from Y to GND, but still have washed out colors   :/
So I'm kinda stuck in how to fix s-video for my launch PAL N64... Perhaps try the Link83/albino_vulpix mod once again some time.

[AlmostOriginal]

PAL N64 S-Video / Composite Fix & NTSC compatibel S-video / Composite! ( Switches )



http://oi60.tinypic.com/28km4pi.jpg

I redesigned the circuit again! This time i added the "PAL / NTSC" switch wiring. Making it compatibel with "all" systems. If you make like an AV-Box. Like this one:

Ultimate Nintendo AV-Box! (S-Video / Composite / RCA & 3.5 mm Headphone!)

Super Nintendo (PAL)
Super Nintendo (NTSC)
Super Famicom (JAP)
Nintendo 64 (PAL)
Nintendo 64 (NTSC)
Nintendo 64 (JAP)
Nintendo Gamecube (PAL)
Nintendo Gamecube (NTSC)
Nintendo Gamecube (JAP)

(If there is a wiring issue please let me know)

PAL N64 S-Video / Composite Fix (PAL ONLY!)

[Shadow_Zero]

Do they need a seperate resistor to ground, or can I use 1 resistor to ground for both?

[AlmostOriginal]

1 for each line. Like shown in the wiring diagram.    (You need 2 resistors)

C Signal (Chroma) - 75 Ohm resistor to ground.
Y Signal (Luma) - 75 Ohm to ground.

[Shadow_Zero]

Yeah, I tried that again, to the Grounds of the av-out, but it was a bit cramming in the N64 over there, so I wondered if I could cheat  ^^
It's the same as before. Without the resistors I have color (and I can say the colors are really good!) but I have a lot of 'interference'. It's the same with every cable and the cables work fine with my NTSC N64, so that's not the problem. Can the wires I use for Y, C and ground  cause any interference between them or something? (the caps and their pins are really close to eachother for example)

With the resistors I don't get video, or when I do, it's black and white. Maybe it's because it's so crammed and it doesn't make a proper connection or something, but like I said, without the resistors I came pretty close!

[AlmostOriginal]

Overall this is a really wierd why it doesnt work. Did you cut a wrong trace or something? Is the components touching the RF sheild.
Please also check PM for more.

[Shadow_Zero]

Thought it would be a pity to keep this analysis in PM, so a quote here:

Hey no problem! The Nintendo 64 S-video mod is really a mind twister. I felt bad that nobody seemed to help you. I was in the same boat when i had problems with my system.

Well let see, one problem that i had was i got no S-video picture. Problem? I had the 75 ohm resistors connected to ground but no ground on the svideo jack 

The other problem was i made the "PAL/NTSC" switch mod where i connected ground to the PAL setting, but not the NTSC setting but i saw that before i assembled it.

Well well enough about me rambling. Biggest failure i had so far is forgetting to connect stuff. Another problem i had was when i tried to figuer out the composite problem. When i connected the inlline cap the cable stopped working! So i added the 75ohm resistor! When i added that it worked again. Also if i removed the cap and left the resistor it still worked.
Is your current wiring the same as before? http://rguichelaar.dyndns.org/games/cables/n64_svideo_1024.jpg

Have you ever successfully preform the S-video mod on any other N64?

Did the system worked with S-video before you preformed the mod?

Also have you ever considering wiring the way i did or make a AV-Box. Reason i ask is because you can always "test" the system with the Multi out if you hit any problems. That´s how i figured out my problem.

So far i have checked the picture that you uploaded. Is it possible for you to make a video about it? The only things i can see from the picture is that maybe the solder joints might be "ok"  but need some touch up "maybe"?

Btw washed out colours you said. Is that the same as "Overbrightnes picture"? If so maybe one / more components doesnt make a good connection.

Please check these spots with a multimeter:



Sorry for long reply.

Tx for the reply!
I think you're mixing a few things up though. The washed out colors is what I read people calling it when using a (NTSC) s-video cable on a PAL N64. It just looks really bad (and a PAL s-video cable doesn't exist). With the mod I actually get the proper colors, but only without the resistors. But there's interference in the image, I don't know why. It's with all the s-video cables I have, but not with the composite cables.
Still, why do the resistors cause the image to die or give me a black/white screen...

I tried another setup with wiring the Grounds of the av-out pins, but that had the same result. Without the resistors I got a nice color again, but interference in the image.

This is my first N64 I try to s-video fix. S-video works fine when wiring directly (but like said, with wrong colors, as it's a NTSC s-video cable).
How did you wire it exactly? My goal is really to perform the s-video fix on my PAL N64, so I can use my s-video cables on both my PAL and NTSC machines. Your av box looks marvellous     But it's not the goal I have (and looks like a bit out of my league  XD ).

What would I be checking with the multimeter? Just if there's connection?

Tx!

[mashley]

Hi,

I have a PAL N64 and have the issue with a mesh pattern over the s-video signal. I have tried numerous cables and none of them help. I'm not too happy about soldering onto my n64 motherboard. Can I perform this mod within the cable? I.e. Cut the AV cable, wire the components inline with the cable, then reinsulate it?

Thanks in advance
mash

[Shadow_Zero]

I kinda thought I read 2 scenario's for the mesh pattern:
- use CSYNC instead of Composite sync
- use a better shielded s-video cable

But I just checked my NTSC N64 with s-video on my Sony LCD and it doesn't have the mesh pattern, whereas my launch PAL N64 (denc chip) has them big time. So it might work!

[mashley]

Thanks Shadow_Zero. I'm off to buy a new soldering iron tomorrow to try rewiring one of my existing cables as I want to try moving pin 9 to pin 7. If this doesn't work I'll try getting the required components to mod the cable,  as he long as someone can confirm that wiring the resistors and capacitors into the cable itself will work.

If none of that works, I'm seriously thinking of going Retrode + Pi and leaving the original consoles as display only pieces. Not what I want to do, but right now I'm just seriously frustrated that it doesn't seem to be possible to get a N64/SNES s-video cable which actually works properly :/

[Shadow_Zero]

I never modded a Nintendo a/v cable before. Opening the multi-a/v plug seems like quite a hassle already. Easy option might be to get a PAL s-video cable from http://www.consolegoods.co.uk/
But I read at assemblergames, I think it was, someone opened the cable to expect these component, but only found a 75ohm resistor. He didn't give comment on the picture quality, so I don't know if it worked out for him.

To add to that, s-video looked really marvellous on the NTSC N64, seemed even to have more color than RGB (videoamp method)!

I don't memorize everything, so my Project Log might have some more leads on the various N64 and s-video matters: http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=5090