Wii video signal dropping in 480p

[knohbody]

There have been alot of complaints with the 480p video on the wii.  The problems consist of the video dropping for a second or two on certain brands of tv, usually when bright flashes occur. I've had this problem using an lcd monitor and a transcoder as well.
Did some research on it, and lots of people have the same problem on the Nintendo forums.  They seem to think that its the range of the component signal. (They think that the wii is giving out 255R/255G/255B when the spec calls for a max of 240R/240G/240B)
Is this plausible?
If so, is it something we can fix by limiting the signal somehow?

Thanks for listening

[blackevilweredragon]

I believe a resistor will do that, but if it's going to 255, chances are it's going to "0" also, and not the spec like it should either (being a TV)...

So if I'm not mistaken, a resistor will then make a "2" a "0" then..

[Lagi]

I don't know if it has a connection but there are a lot of Wii owners in France who complain about the official component cable in France. Indeed, American and Japanese versions of Zelda in YUV just to quote this game seem to have brighter pictures than the European version in YUV. If you understand French, you can visit this site which is visited by most of French players who meet these problems.

http://www.gamekult.com/forum/lire_n318278_page71/
http://www.gamekult.com/forum/lire_n318278_page72/

Their comparison is based on the IGN video which looked like better quality than they have on their plasma or lcd screens with their official yuv cord for wii.

Since the Game Cube, would Wii have the same problems with the progressive scan question concerning the Game Cube ?

I dare hope that no, it won't be the case.

See you.  

[Lagi]

What I forgot to say of course is that they play in 480p and not 480i, just to confirm that. And according to what they say, Us versions have a better 480p than European versions of the Wii regarding Zelda for instance. Some of them even say that there are not so big differences with 480i, and yell that 480p in Europe for Wii is just an awful hoax. The only real progressive scan game always according to them is Super Monkey Ball Banana Blitz which seems to be okay.

Have you got an explanation for these unhappy players ?  

[knohbody]

blackevilweredragon: Thanks for the help, i'll try hacking something together and see if it helps. I've been looking for what rating resistor to use, can anyone point me in the right direction?

Lagi: I don't speak French, but i was under the assumption that French progressive scan was different than American progressive scan. NTSC Progressive is 480p and Secam is 576p.  There should still be significant improvement from 576i tho. I'm trying to wade my way through the forums with google's translation, but it's not very good.

I did notice mention of Rayman not producing any differences between the two modes. This is apparently because all versions of the game do not support progressive.  It apparently says it in the manual, but when the game comes on, it switches back to interlaced mode.

I can't tell what's going on in the forums, really. I would suggest making sure they have set the wii to progressive (in the wii settings, under screen) AND the TV to the correct mode as well, as a lot of televisions will not automatically adjust to the screen mode.  Hope this helps.

[blackevilweredragon]

I'd personally recommend using a POT, so you can adjust it...

Lawrence might have some info though..

[knohbody]

Again, blackevilweredragon, thanks for your help. I ended up using parts i had around the house. Used a linear taper 100k pot (i know, overkill, but i had it around) to determine what size resistor i needed. turns out it was about ninety ohms, so i put two 47ohm resistors in series on the Y line. Works like a charm.
Since I haven't done this to the other lines, the color is a bit off, but the same amount of resistance on the other lines should fix that. There is a slight drop in contrast, but it's worth it to not lose the signal.

EDIT: i put some pictures up on Flickr.. the photo quality is crappy, and i didn't solder anything, i just twisted for right now.

construction

[Shadow_Zero]

I never experienced any drop-out with my consoles hooked up directly to the tv with component. With the use of the Joytech AV Control Center 245C I did:
http://ntsc-uk.domino.org/showthread.php?t=68941

Made some video's as well: http://www.rg-collectibles.nl/vid/joytech_..._245c_test1.mov
http://www.rg-collectibles.nl/vid/joytech_..._245c_test2.mov
http://www.rg-collectibles.nl/vid/joytech_..._245c_test3.mov

I returned the unit to Joytech NL. Since it was just on the market they didn't know about any structural problems, but these last weeks/months I've seen a lot of complaints on various fora. I got my money back without any communication, that was kinda odd. At first I was expecting a replacement or fixed unit.

But any ideas how I can solve this?
I've experienced problems with my dvd-changer, the Wii and the PS2. Besides the drop-out, I also had interference lines.
Now I must say I also get these with the YPbPr Power Box from Play-Asia, but that's barely noticable (and since it's such a cheap device, I guess I can't expect it to be totally great, though it does do the job    ).

Input is welcome! I'd really like I 245C in my setup!

[ZDragon]

I did notice mention of Rayman not producing any differences between the two modes. This is apparently because all versions of the game do not support progressive.  It apparently says it in the manual, but when the game comes on, it switches back to interlaced mode.

Can't be. I'm using a YUV->VGA converter and my monitor won't display any kind of interlaced video output. Like, Gamecube and Virtual Console games give me a black screen.

But I can play Rayman on my monitor, so it *has* to be 480p.

I *also* have the problem with the video drops, the screen just turns itself off for a split second as if changing resolutions or something. Happens even in the Wii menu when I'm zooming out of some channels. Basically it happens for me a lot in general when there's any kind of zooming - also in the dancing games of Rayman, whenever there's one stage cleared and one of the rabbits appears and the game zooms in to it - bam, there you go, black screen.

I'll try that hint with the resistors, however I wonder if the quality loss in contrast really isn't that big... because on the screenshot posted, it looks like pretty big of a difference. Well, let's just see and fine out

[knohbody]

Can't be. I'm using a YUV->VGA converter and my monitor won't display any kind of interlaced video output. Like, Gamecube and Virtual Console games give me a black screen.

But I can play Rayman on my monitor, so it *has* to be 480p.

I haven't played it, or tested it, so I don't know firsthand.  IGN says it doesn't support 480p, and alot of other posts on other forums confirm problems with it. That's what I was basing my statement on. However, if it works on your monitor, it seems that they must be wrong. Maybe you got a later version than they did?

The contrast difference is there, but it's really not as bad as the picture makes it out to be.  The resistor helps out a lot, but after a bit of testing, it didn't fix all of the dropout, just most of it. Zelda still drops out a bit, just not at the same parts.

The virtual console games don't display in 480p? That's unfortunate.
With gamecube games, you can sometimes force them into progressive, even if it doesnt say that it supports progressive. Hold down "b" while starting the game, then keep pressing "a" while you're holding "b". It won't give you a signal until it goes into progressive tho.

What YUV->VGA converter are you using? I've got one from MayFlash. Supposedly the X2VGA 2 supports 480i.

[ZDragon]

I haven't played it, or tested it, so I don't know firsthand.  IGN says it doesn't support 480p, and alot of other posts on other forums confirm problems with it. That's what I was basing my statement on. However, if it works on your monitor, it seems that they must be wrong. Maybe you got a later version than they did?

I've got the PAL version, wouldn't understand though if 480p should only be supported by the PAL one.

I'm using some sort of noname converter that I picked up on eBay, doesn't say a thing about where it's from Small black box with white font saying "YPbPr to RGBHV VGA BOX" on it. Was advertised as "world's smallest converter".



And yea, I'm desparetely waiting for homebrew emulators so that I can forget about that Virtual Console shit I'm not quite sure how to do that Gamecube 480p trick though. Which a/b buttons do I have to press, the one of the Gamecube controller or of the Wiimote? And by pressing the a button, do you mean like rapidly or just keep it pressing? I tried it with Time Splitters 2 just before, and all kinds of combinations, and nothing worked...

[knohbody]

It sounds like you got a mayflash adapter as well. Its fairly common on ebay over here, and there are no company logos on the outside casing.

as for the gamecube problem... Holding b down on the gamecube controller while starting it up brings up a dialog on many games that asks if you want to set the game in progressive. It asks you yes or no, and the default is yes. Since i can't see the question (it's displayed in 480i) I just keep pressing a while holding b down. Usually takes about 15 seconds or so.

However, i believe this feature on PAL games switches from 50hz to 60hz, instead of enabling progressive, so  you may be out of luck.

ShadowZero: I have no idea what would be causing this. I'm assuming that it wasn't well made though, and is having problems with the progressive signal. Did you try with an interlaced video?

[ZDragon]

Yea you're most probably right, I just did some research and seemingly any kind of progressive scan support was removed from the PAL versions... sad but true.

Well, still leaves me wondering if anyone will reply to this thread. I didn't yet find any real solution to my interlaced problem it at least. I also got the Mayflash one, just checked any yea, that's the one I have.
BTW, the X2VGA 2 only supports 480i in a really crappy temporary mode with only half of the picture viewable at the same time, they write on their website that it might even be dangerous to your health to keep looking at the generated picture or even play games with it XD

[ZDragon]

I also fixed my problem today with a resistor, though I'm not sure if it couldn't still be optimized in some way...

First a question though, why should the color be off if you only add a resistor to the Y line? It's only the luminance, basically just the brightness of the picture. Setting it lower doesn't really make the colors look off, maybe just brighter (so it seems like a higher contrast maybe).


I used a 100 ohms resistor, and the difference in brightness definitely *is* noticeable there. On the other hand, even the heavy problems I had - in all the dancing games of Rayman whenever the camera would zoom in to the rabbits dancing - are gone now at least. I'm gonna experiment a bit further, lower resistance means higher picture quality ;-)

[knohbody]

First a question though, why should the color be off if you only add a resistor to the Y line? It's only the luminance, basically just the brightness of the picture. Setting it lower doesn't really make the colors look off, maybe just brighter (so it seems like a higher contrast maybe).

Um, the colors are off because of my lack of understanding of component video.  Seriously though, it does make a difference in the colors, but it's likely as you described.  My understanding of component video at the time I made that statement was that the green signal would be affected by adjusting the luminance.  The color looked off, and so I went with my assumption.  After looking it up a bit more, I see that all of the color is affected, which should have been obvious to me the first time around. Live and learn.

I'm wondering if a smaller resistor on all the inputs would give us a more desirable fix.

I used a 100 ohms resistor, and the difference in brightness definitely *is* noticeable there. On the other hand, even the heavy problems I had - in all the dancing games of Rayman whenever the camera would zoom in to the rabbits dancing - are gone now at least. I'm gonna experiment a bit further, lower resistance means higher picture quality ;-)

Experiment with it a bit, theres definitely a sweet spot, it seems to change from game to game though.  I got an email from Nintendo. They want to talk to me on the phone about the problems I've been having (I sent them an email via customer service)  Perhaps they'll fix it up on the software side soon.

Edit: Like I said, the contrast issue was there, it just wasn't as pronounced as in the pictures.

[ZDragon]

I don't really think that this could be a software-side issue, as something rather seems to be wrong with the DAC inside the Nintendo Wii (which I doubt is programmable really).

Anyway, for some reason I think this problem is actually connected to the Mayflash adapter that we're both using. After all most people don't seem to have this problem at all, so that's why this would have been my guess.

Where did you read that the specs of YUV allow a maximum of 240 for Y/U/V? I'd really be interested in that because 255 just seems like a rather normal maximum value for me (255=0xFF -> maximum of an 8-bit value). Again, my guess is that this is involved with the Mayflash adapter, also because when I called Nintendo today they said it was the first time they heard about this problem. Okay, Germany here isn't really the country where many people have HDTVs, but still...

[knohbody]

The YUV specs being 255 instead of 240 was a theory posted by someone on the nintendo forum.  Personally, I haven't been able to find anything that specifically defines the numerical values of YUV.  It got me thinking that the video was being overloaded, and that it needed to be limited somehow.

As for it just being a problem with the adapter, I'd accept that, apart from the fact that alot of people in that forum post are having the same problems with various brands of tv as well.

Heres the link if you wanna check it  out.

Nintendo forums 480p problems

[Guest]

ZDragon:
The reason it fixes the signal is, the weird way component is working.
Y is luminance as you said, Pb is the difference between luminance and blue, Pr is the difference between luminance and red, and the sum of that gives green.
So if you lower luminance, you also lower the color values.

[knohbody]

So I think I've narrowed down the problem with the signal dropping. The adapter I'm using is the Mayflash VGA-001, which is based on the LMH251 transcoder chip put out by national semiconductor. I'm guessing it's used in alot of the newer hdtvs and monitors to convert the component signal, as it's a compact solution.

However, according to the data sheet, in 480p mode, and 480p mode only, some monitors have problems accepting the positive hsync that the chip outputs, and will drop the signal briefly because the monitor thinks that a different resolution is selected. It goes on to state that this can be rectified with a hex inverter, to change the hsync signal from positive to negative as well as stabilizing it somewhat. (that's what i gleaned from it anyway). So I took a vga cable and cut it apart, putting the hsync through the inverter (a radioshack 7404 chip) and putting the output toward the monitor, while supplying +5v and ground from the board. Unfortunately this didn't work for me, perhaps because it was after something on the board itself?

As well, when I was working on the board, i shorted something, and now the display from the board is all red, even with just the Y cable plugged in. If anyone can clarify what I did wrong with the hsync, please let me know, as well as what I should do with the all-red output from the mayflash device.