NES RGB mod

[Drakon]

Truthfully my twin couldn't possibly look or sound any better on my setup.  Maybe if I was using a super sensitive flat screen tv I'd look into getting some sort of upscaler with a filter.  I see no point in further trying to "clean things up" no noticeable interference shows up on my tv or sound system.

Skips uses more sensitive equipment than me so he took the work further than I did in terms of removing interference.

I did find this and think that it's proof that the only real way to actually "fix" jailbars is a complete pcb redesign:

NES Super 8 v1.8

Or using fpga to get digital signals from the composite ppu and generate clean rgb with that (can't go wrong with digital).  I'm waiting for the fpga solution since with that you can use any pallette you desire and it's the best 100% interference free rgb solution on the original nes / famicom pcbs.

[Tighe]

Don't forget that thunderbunny (POWERPAK maker) is making a hdmi modded top-loading NES.

[Drakon]

Don't forget that thunderbunny (POWERPAK maker) is making a hdmi modded top-loading NES.

Which uses the exact same fpga solution.  Once you get digital signals you can convert them into whatever format you like interference free.

[TheNameOfTheGame]

I just had game-tech.US http://www.game-tech.us/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Nes/NES-101Mods put in my PPU and add the amp and multi-out port and I can't see a jailbar anywhere.  I am very happy with it.  This is a toploader hooked up to sony pvm monitor.  Maybe I just got lucky to not see any jailbars.

[CaptainScurvy]

Any chance you could possibly open it up and see if any ground or power points were changed for the ppu?

I'm wondering if the ground shielding the NES2 has that the AV famicom doesn't actually makes a difference also.

[CaptainScurvy]

I decided to hook up my RGB ppu to my toaster nes and had significantly less jailbars.  I'm assuming this is due to PCB design and not the chip now, exact same amp and setup and the jailbars are just faintly visible in a CPU-06 board.  I guess the revision 1 av famicoms must have really bad grounding issues that cause interference in the ppu data lines.

[Salamander]

Could be you just have a bad AV Famicom. 



V1 vs. V2 the only things I notice are some changed transistors an added electrolytic cap at C14 (6.3V 47μF) along with some minor cosmetic changes.

The systems in comparison are V1: HN10031970 and V2: HN10741609.  The RGB modded AV Famicom I kept for my own personal use is a V1 as well HN10038231 and it displays beautiful video quality.

[RGB32E]

Cool V1 and V2 comparison!

What circuit did you use on your V1?  I just picked up a V1 and a F-LABO kit and hope the results are at least as good as my CPU-10 RGB modded system.

[CaptainScurvy]

Edit:

N/m question wasn't intended for me.

[Salamander]

V1 with the full F-LABO kit, they really are great.  The only change I make to it is shorter electrolytic caps at the back on the luma/chroma/composite lines so it fits in the case neatly.

[Drakon]

My toaster is a cpu-06, it's about the same in terms of jailbars as every av famicom I've ever worked on.

V1 with the full F-LABO kit, they really are great.  The only change I make to it is shorter electrolytic caps at the back on the luma/chroma/composite lines so it fits in the case neatly.

I found removing or relocating the composite video 220 uf cap makes it fit perfectly in the av famicom case.  For the luma and chroma caps it fits fine.

[skips]

I decided to hook up my RGB ppu to my toaster nes and had significantly less jailbars.  I'm assuming this is due to PCB design and not the chip now, exact same amp and setup and the jailbars are just faintly visible in a CPU-06 board.  I guess the revision 1 av famicoms must have really bad grounding issues that cause interference in the ppu data lines.

That sounds more like something could be wrong with your AV Famicom. I have moded both revisions of the AV Famicom PCB and jailbars were no different on either version across several different displays or encoders (s-video or component). PCB Revision does matter significantly on the Toaster NES though. Revisions 6 and 7 appear to be the cleanest versions as far as jailbars are concerned.

Some things you also have to remember are just because its "jailbar free" for one person does not mean it will be for others. Jailbar visibility is affected by many different variables (some of which have nothing to do with the NES itself). Some of these things will be...

• How sensitive your PPU is (some PPU's are more susceptible to interference than others, and yes I have confirmed this)
• Your television type (HDTV vs CRT)
• How sensitive your television is
• The level of sharpness your television is set at (the higher the sharpness the more visible jailbars become
• The level of brightness your television is set at (the higher the brightness the more visible jailbars become)
• Your NES PCB revision (did not seem to make a difference on the AV Famicom but does significantly on the toaster NES)
• The size of your television (the bigger a TV gets the more visible jailbars can become, this is only compounded further if the TV is sensitive)
• Distance between the PPU and amplifier
• Where you grounded the shielding on your CPU or PPU (Not everyone has to shield them but it helped me immensely)
• The type of video encoder you use if you are not just using straight RGB
• The amplifier you use
• How anal you are about imperfections (some people are ok with it as long as it can't be seen from a distance)

I'm sure there is more stuff I have tested over the past few months but it is late and I can't remember them of the top of my head.

On my 35 inch CRT jailbars are nonexistent on 99% of the games I play and even when they are visible you have to be right up against the TV to see them. However on my HDTV the jailbars are horrid. Unfortunately jail bar reduction is just something everyone that does this mod has to dink with until they find something that works for them. There is no 100% for sure method that anyone can give you to reduce them on your TV (not unless you copy everything they did including what I listed above and bought the same exact equipment as them). All anyone can really do is give you some of the things they did to see if it helps you out. Everything I listed was stuff I spent months dinking around with until I found what worked with my equipment, components, and setup. Drakon gave me tips that helped immensely however some things he told me did not work for me and I still had to go out and do a lot of experimentation to get it to an acceptable level for me. When someone says "jail bar free" Its not really jailbar free, its just not visible on their setup.

I am not sure if you are using a capture device in those screenshots you posted earlier or if you are using an HDTV. If you are using an HDTV I strongly recommend switching to a CRT with component video and using the FLABO kit in conjunction with the CVS 287. Some HDTV's do a great job of filtering out the interference but if its like mine it does a shit job at it. Most HDTV's I have personally tried an RGB Famicom/NES on have had very noticeable jailbars. That does not mean all HDTV's will, its just what I have personally experienced.

As long as your CRT is not complete shit a good CRT TV should have less visible jailbars than most HDTVs (assuming you are not using a device like the XRGB on the HDTV). I have tried my Famicom, AV Famicom, an Toaster NES on a dozen different Televisions and what I have listed above seemed to give the best results on one of the newer flat tube Sony Trinitron TVs. It is an excellent display and mine is damn near that of a Sony PVM in picture quality and at a much larger size. Dont bother with the NeoShitz or the Jfok for component video though, they blow ass compared to a properly configured CVS287. The CVS287 is not very sensitive to interference and appears to filter some of it out, I get stronger jailbars going through s-video on the FLABO's S-Video than I do via the CVS287.

[RGB32E]

My AV Famicom RGB mod turned out well!  At least as good as my toaster.

XRGB-Mini to 55" RGB LED-LCD




I see now what you mean Salamander about the Cv and Luma capacitors.  I used polymer caps for these that are a little bit shorter than the included ones, but the cart slot/lid assembly doesn't quite have enough clearance.  I had to use an extra machine pin socket to clear the 1uF caps on the Famicom PCB.  I used machine pin headers that are a little too short, or else I might have been fine.  I didn't wire up the audio separation circuit yet, but the kit is fully assembled.

[Drakon]

I was always expecting flatscreens to be worse.  I was really surprised when one of the first commission systems I built looked like this on the customer's flatscreen:



I think he just has a good tv.

rgb32e: The audio circuit is great but unfortunately with tmnt 2: the arcade game, kirbys adventure, and final fantasy 3 the "popping" bass kick / snare drum samples literally get filtered out.  If you wire it up I strongly recommend you use a switch to be able to enable / disable the circuit.  I still think the f-labo kit is the best thing in the world for vrc6 gaming.

[Europemodder]

Im bying XRGB-3 or Mini, but I like to record my gaming to PC too.
I have Hauppauge HD PVR which can input component and I have Hauppauge HD PVR 2 which can input HDMI, but can I input RGB Famicom on XRGB-3 or Mini and then Output Component or HDMI?
Is Mini easily to use, or is XRGB-3 better?

[Grambo]

Im bying XRGB-3 or Mini, but I like to record my gaming to PC too.
I have Hauppauge HD PVR which can input component and I have Hauppauge HD PVR 2 which can input HDMI, but can I input RGB Famicom on XRGB-3 or Mini and then Output Component or HDMI?

Both can input RGB. Both can output HDMI (you'd need a cheap DVI to HDMI adapter for the XRGB-3). Neither can output component.

Is Mini easily to use, or is XRGB-3 better?

http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/
In short, Mini is generally better at most things.

[Europemodder]

When I'm playing like Megamans or Mario 3 on my RGB Famicom I got some gliching vertical on my right side of the screen. Its like color copied of some other places.
Is there same problem with everybody?

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9354/swkj.jpg

[Live_Steam_Mad]

Which PPU are you using that is causing the glitch on the right hand side? I am using RP2C03B and see glitches on Super Mario Bros 2 (USA version) on the right hand side, I am using NES toaster revision 4 ( CPU 04 ) and Sony KV14LT1U FD Trinitron CRT 14" TV and Infocus IN76 projector (or was, bulb just went last month meh). Happened on all 5 PPU's of the exact same PPU model number.

Cheers,

Alistair G.

[Drakon]

When I'm playing like Megamans or Mario 3 on my RGB Famicom I got some gliching vertical on my right side of the screen. Its like color copied of some other places.
Is there same problem with everybody?

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9354/swkj.jpg

Welcome to the world of overscan european people.  These aren't glitches.  This stuff happens on a composite ppu as well.  NTSC tvs don't display that range and therefore don't show those areas.

*edit*

Here's a commission I slapped together quickly.



THS7314 amp wired directly to the ppu socket pins in a nes-cpu-11 pcb.  The result....extremely reduced jailbars.



It's not quite as good as my other systems but it's a good proof of concept.  Considering this pcb revision is usually the jailbar king.

[CaptainScurvy]

When I'm playing like Megamans or Mario 3 on my RGB Famicom I got some gliching vertical on my right side of the screen. Its like color copied of some other places.
Is there same problem with everybody?

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9354/swkj.jpg

What you're showing is completely normal for any revision nes.  You normally wouldn't see that overscan area on an older CRT (which the nes is designed for) and it's due to the nes updating the nametable when scrolling.

The other glitch people are mentioning, like the SMB2 blue bar on the right side of the screen and glitching in mega man 2 bubble stage is caused by the RP2C03B.  It seems this issue was fixed in the RC2C03B and other ppu revisions.  At least I myself can confirm it occurs in a RP2C03B and not in the RC2C05-04  both of which I use.

[Drakon]

When I'm playing like Megamans or Mario 3 on my RGB Famicom I got some gliching vertical on my right side of the screen. Its like color copied of some other places.
Is there same problem with everybody?

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9354/swkj.jpg

What you're showing is completely normal for any revision nes.  You normally wouldn't see that overscan area on an older CRT (which the nes is designed for) and it's due to the nes updating the nametable when scrolling.

The other glitch people are mentioning, like the SMB2 blue bar on the right side of the screen and glitching in mega man 2 bubble stage is caused by the RP2C03B.  It seems this issue was fixed in the RC2C03B and other ppu revisions.  At least I myself can confirm it occurs in a RP2C03B and not in the RC2C05-04  both of which I use.

Tech help fail.  Rc2c03b has the megaman 2 glitch, the 05-04/03 ppus are the ones without it.  I just checked the release dates.  Playchoice 10 the pcb is from 1986, therefore the ppu design should be from 1986 as well.  Top gun / gumshoe (rc2c05-04/03) is 1987, so there you go, updated ppu with the bug removed.  I just checked...megaman 2 was never released on the playchoice.  Perhaps these bugs can be worked around with romhacking.  With help I romhacked a few awesome games / romhacks to run on the rgb ppus, stupid color emphasis...  Luckily swapping color emphasis bits for grayscale / regular just requires changing a single hex value.

[RGB32E]

Ever get this sorted out?

http://consolemods.freeforums.org/the-rare-rc2c05-04-ppu-t130.html

I also found the following, which seems to describe the same circuit:

[CaptainScurvy]

The black/green/blue pcb schematic using the 2 logic gates works, it's what I used with my C05-04.

[Drakon]

The black/green/blue pcb schematic using the 2 logic gates works, it's what I used with my C05-04.

That's the baku circuit.  He's since posted a single chip circuit which I haven't bothered wiring up.  The single chip one also includes a jumper to switch between 05 series ppus and drop in nes compatible rgb ppus.

For anyone who wants to play really good games that normally don't work on rgb ppus:

http://16bitgamer.forumotion.ca/t223-rgb-nes-famicom-compatible-roms

*frrt*

http://bakutendo.blog87.fc2.com/blog-entry-262.html

http://bakutendo.blog87.fc2.com/blog-entry-259.html

[RGB32E]

http://bakutendo.blog87.fc2.com/blog-entry-262.html

http://bakutendo.blog87.fc2.com/blog-entry-259.html

Looks like good info!  Thanks!

I've had a VS. Gumshoe for years but never tried hooking it up due to the inverted RGB output.  However, on the XRGB-mini there is a color invert option that should resolve that issue.  I ordered parts for making a VS. to Jamma adapter, but haven't built it yet.  I'll order a 74HC151 and give this a shot. 

Another note - I replaced all of the electrolytic caps on my AV famicom and noticed that bright JBs increased initially, but then reduced dramatically after a couple of hours of operation.  I'd imagine this is in part the "break-in" that is spoke of in hi-fi sales.  Hmm... 

[Drakon]

Gumshoe isn't inverted.  It's the same pallette as the rp2c03b and the top gun ppu.

...oh wait you mean the actual arcade board.

[CaptainScurvy]

Curious, anyone with a C03-05 have this occur in megaman 3?


I don't have an original cart to see if it's just the powerpak:

[Drakon]

Curious, anyone with a C03-05 have this occur in megaman 3?


I don't have an original cart to see if it's just the powerpak:

I have regular rockman 3 cart it doesn't do that with my top gun ppu.  The powerpak mappers are poorly written.

[RGB32E]

This worked out very well! 



No hot glue or scraggly wiring!    I might add a zip tie though. 

I wish the PCB I used had a few more rows of holes.  I built a VS. System to JAMMA adapter and couldn't get picture or sound from the board.  Only a black screen (sync, no picture).  I tried the VS. board first on my PVM-2030, and then on my XRGB-mini.  I was able to confirm that the mini was receiving a "720x240p" signal from the status menu, so I decided to give the RGB mod a try.

I can confirm that this PPU gets rid of the moving blue lines in SMB2, and gives a better picture (no JBs on a CRT).  What to do with my F-LABO kit with Duck Hunt PPU... Any takers?

[Tighe]

Is that a gumshoe ppu? Does it have the proper palette?

[CaptainScurvy]

This worked out very well! 



No hot glue or scraggly wiring!    I might add a zip tie though. 

I wish the PCB I used had a few more rows of holes.  I built a VS. System to JAMMA adapter and couldn't get picture or sound from the board.  Only a black screen (sync, no picture).  I tried the VS. board first on my PVM-2030, and then on my XRGB-mini.  I was able to confirm that the mini was receiving a "720x240p" signal from the status menu, so I decided to give the RGB mod a try.

I can confirm that this PPU gets rid of the moving blue lines in SMB2, and gives a better picture (no JBs on a CRT).  What to do with my F-LABO kit with Duck Hunt PPU... Any takers?

You've also got no caps on the RGB output lines meaning your RGB lines are most likely carrying a voltage with them which could damage your devices.  Did you check with a multimeter if there is any voltage on your output lines?  Otherwise looks great, not sloppy at all.

[Tighe]

Also can you please tell me the part # on that TI RGB amp you have there?  Is it strong enough to use with an arcade monitor?  I am building a JAMMA SNES.

Is this it?
http://www.ti.com/product/ths7314

[RGB32E]

Is that a gumshoe ppu? Does it have the proper palette?

I haven't made any objective palette comparisions, but it looks good to me.  None of the PPUs do the color emphasis, so games like Maniac Mansion and Totally Rad display black instead of a color for some BG tiles.

Also can you please tell me the part # on that TI RGB amp you have there?  Is it strong enough to use with an arcade monitor?  I am building a JAMMA SNES.

Is this it?
http://www.ti.com/product/ths7314

Yes, it's the THS7314.  For an arcade setup I would recommend using Tim's arcade adapter board instead of trying to consolize - http://etim.net.au/scart2arcV20_orders/orders.htm
The THS7315 might be a better choice for an arcade cab as it has a higher gain.

You've also got no caps on the RGB output lines meaning your RGB lines are most likely carrying a voltage with them which could damage your devices.  Did you check with a multimeter if there is any voltage on your output lines? 

  The caps are in the cable... all is well.    The 75 ohm resistors are on the underside of the PCB between the two headers.  This is an AV Famicom, so I'm using a SHVC-010 cable I modified for direct connection to a XRGB-mini.  The caps are fancy polymer ones - http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/RR70J221MDN1/493-3705-ND.

Otherwise looks great, not sloppy at all.

Thanks, I try.

[Drakon]

I keep my f-labo kicking around because vrc6 stuff sounds better with that audio circuit (even on the twin famicom) and with some modding to the circuit the s-video looks amazing.

For color emphasis stuff on my forum there's a thread with a bunch of romhacked games to make them run fine on rgb systems.  Including rockman minus infinity, mario adventure and just breed.  It's possible to romhack any game to either disable color emphasis or change it to grayscale which the rgb ppu can do.  I haven't bothered with other games because the other games with this problem I didn't find them to be very fun games.

For amping console rgb to arcade rgb the ultimarc rgb amp should get the job done.  I discovered a while ago that the njm rgb amp can also go to jamma levels.



rgb32e, hope you included a 0.1 uf decoupling cap on your ths amp.

[RGB32E]

I keep my f-labo kicking around because vrc6 stuff sounds better with that audio circuit (even on the twin famicom) and with some modding to the circuit the s-video looks amazing.

I haven't tried the audio circuit yet.  I'll try it on the next one I mod!  You and your S-Video shenanigans! 

For color emphasis stuff on my forum there's a thread with a bunch of romhacked games to make them run fine on rgb systems.  Including rockman minus infinity, mario adventure and just breed.  It's possible to romhack any game to either disable color emphasis or change it to grayscale which the rgb ppu can do.  I haven't bothered with other games because the other games with this problem I didn't find them to be very fun games.

Sounds interesting!  I've messed around with modifying in a hex editor, but do not have an IC programmer.

rgb32e, hope you included a 0.1 uf decoupling cap on your ths amp.

You mean for the VCC pin?  Mine is hiding underneath the DIP adaptor.

[Drakon]

Mario adventure can be played on flashcarts.  However the other games that have been romhacked are mmc5 so those are repro cart only.

[Salamander]

Just putting this out there so it's a bit more visible.

Those glitchy parts of Bubble Man in MM2, the glitchy bar in SMB2 and I'm sure others I'm forgetting to mention or test do seem to be PPU related.  I picked up an rc2c03c PPU from who I believe posts as Akaviolence here (thank you!!) and it's got none of the graphical trash found on rp2c03b or rc2c03b PPUs.  All 3 PPUs mentioned will work but the C revision cleared up the junk. 

[cgm]

Curious, anyone with a C03-05 have this occur in megaman 3?


I don't have an original cart to see if it's just the powerpak:

That video glitch is present in the original cart. With standard PPU machines you just have the glitchy line above Shadow Man, no jumpy video. The glitch even shows up in emulators.

[Live_Steam_Mad]

Hi Drakon, I think you mentioned a while back that you use Easycap as your Frame Grabber.

Can you please right click on it in Control Panel / System / Device Manager / Sound, Video and Game controllers / USB 2.0 Video Capture (like it was on my August brand model VGB100 frame grabber) and tell me what chipset the Easycap uses please? My VGB100 uses the Conexant Polaris chipset and suffers from poor shadow detail shown here in a test clip (read the comments under the video!) ;-

Test clip of August VGB100 Frame Grabber, Conexant Polaris chipset, S-Video, Pioneer LX60D DVD NTSC

Does anyone know of a Frame Grabber out there that uses a chipset which is NOT the Conexant Polaris? I want to try a different one. I wish Pioneer made one, my LX60D is awesome but there's no live digital output from it.

Regards,

Alistair G.

[cgm]

There are quite a few capture devices out there that use various chipsets. One of the best is the ATI Theater 200 found on the old AGP All-in-Wonder cards. EasyCAPs are far from quality devices though, and the vast majority on ebay are fakes. If you need a USB device, seek out an ATI TV Wonder 600 USB. Its capture chip is shown to not have problems with AGC like the later 650/700/750 chipsets.