NES RGB mod

[Salamander]

Well it needs to be said that if anyone is experiencing Toploader RF out style jailbars on an RGB modded AV Famicom or any other RGB modded NES for that matter something went horrifically wrong.  These are so faint even on the PVM that they are difficult to capture.

Since you mention that cartridge adapter Tighe, do you own real cartridges or just a Powerpak?  I ask because I'm curious if the PC-10 hardware gets graphical trash on the Bubble Man stage (underwater) in Mega Man 2 or if Battletoads occasionally locks in the Wookie Hole.

[Tighe]

Well it needs to be said that if anyone is experiencing Toploader RF out style jailbars on an RGB modded AV Famicom or any other RGB modded NES for that matter something went horrifically wrong.  These are so faint even on the PVM that they are difficult to capture.

Since you mention that cartridge adapter Tighe, do you own real cartridges or just a Powerpak?  I ask because I'm curious if the PC-10 hardware gets graphical trash on the Bubble Man stage (underwater) in Mega Man 2 or if Battletoads occasionally locks in the Wookie Hole.

I have played Mega Man 2 on it and didn't notice any problems, but I will check.  I don't have a powerpak, I am waiting ThunerBunny to release his updated one with on-line scoreboard.

I don't have Battletoads, but I really should pick that game up.

I can say that on the adapter that Kirby and Mega Man 5 don't work without I mod that 2600 suggested I do.  I haven't done it yet.  They work in the powepak though.

I made some youtube videos about the adapter if you want to see it in action.  All the initial difficulties I had came down to dirty carts and a short in the wiring harness:

First test: Playchoice 10 NES Cart adapter
Playchoice 10 NES Cart Adapter: Update
Playchoice 10 with NES Cartridge Adapter (Project Completed)

Here is some extended play of me playing Kid Icarus on it.

Part 1: Giving Kid Icarus a Second Chance: Level 1-1

[DaddyLongLegs]

VS Gumshoe and Titler use the same PPU???

[Live_Steam_Mad]

VS Gumshoe and Titler use the same PPU???

Famicom Titler uses the RC2C05-99 PPU http://dentsubo.sakura.ne.jp/diary/img/2008/20080728_titler2.jpg

VS GumShoe uses RP2C05-03 http://tech.quarterarcade.com/Game.aspx/8784

But take note of what Markus said ;- http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1592.msg24143#msg24143

Cheers,

Alistair G.

[Drakon]

Famicom Titler uses the RC2C05-99 PPU http://dentsubo.sakura.ne.jp/diary/img/2008/20080728_titler2.jpg

VS GumShoe uses RP2C05-03 http://tech.quarterarcade.com/Game.aspx/8784

But take note of what Markus said ;- http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1592.msg24143#msg24143

Cheers,

Alistair G.

Baku posted the schematic to get the rc2c05-04 working a while ago:



The circuit also works with the gumshoe rc2c05-03 ppu.  I havn't tested any others because I've never had any of them in my posession.

[TheNameOfTheGame]

Hello, I am doing this mod now.  I have the PPU out and the socket ready (machined precision one), but I am a little unsure of the type of video amp to use.

I have a NJM2267, but I see this is only a dual-input.  Is there a quad input amp that works well with the mod so I can get all the RGB inputs amped with only 1 chip?  Thanks. 


*Edit*  I'm seeing a lot about the THS7314 since it has 3 inputs...good choice for me to get?

[Salamander]

THS7314 was the first style I built and was pleased with the results and simplicity.  It's a nice solution if all you care about is an RGB signal with few components.

[ApolloBoy]

I'd also second the THS7314, I use it for N64 and PCE/TG-16 RGB mods and it's never let me down.

[TheNameOfTheGame]

Oh cool, so that is a good amp. 

Are there any schematics around showing how to hook this up?  I assume there would be some passive components to use too like 75ohm resistors or some such.

[TheNameOfTheGame]

Bump    Anyone know where the schematics are?  And about pin 17...does it need lifted too?  I saw a post saying when pin 17 was lifted, the jailbars were reduced.  Thanks.

[Live_Steam_Mad]

If you read from my post of http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1592.msg29740#msg29740 onwards, I give a complete detailed description of the connections that I used in order to hook up my USA NES revision 4 with RGB mod and RP2C03B to my Euro type Sony CRT TV's with SCART. That should help you out if you are based in EU. Or are you based in USA?

Cheers,

Alistair G.

[TheNameOfTheGame]

Yes, I did read the whole thread here but it is a lot to digest.  I'm not sure I have it all yet, but I'm trying 

I have a toploader nes and have removed the old PPU already and have the precision socket ready.  I am going to use a THS7314 amp.

There is lots of talk in this thread about grounding issues and jailbars.

At the moment, this is how I am thinking to do the mod:

pins 14-16 rgb pins going into the amp
pin 17, lifted and not sure what to do with it" (Any suggestions what to do with it?)
pin 20 ground for amp
pin 21 sync going to the multi-out connector
pin 40 5V going into the amp

Does anyone know where I would get the audio from the top loader to go to the multi-out connecter?  The top loader doesn't have separate a/v rca jacks, just 1 rf out.

Thanks for any help you can offer, I am almost ready to do the mod.

[Salamander]

You should be able to pick up audio at the inductor FC1.  I don't lift pin 17 on the PPU it has never made a difference for me.

[CaptainScurvy]

Hi, I recently picked up a duckhunt Vs. PPU and plan to install it in my AV famicom (1st revision).  I plan to use a THS7314 amp to amplify the RGB lines and wire them to the multi out and just use an external converter.

My question is, do pins 14,15,16 need to be lifted when grabbing the RGB signal?  I recall reading some cases where people mentioned not lifting them but after reading this thread people mention they must be lifted.  Any clarification on this?  Maybe it's only for the Toaster style NES's?  I also plan to put a 0.1uF ceramic capacitor between pins 20 and 22 which was said to significantly reduce jailbars.

Anyone know for sure?  Thanks.

[RGB32E]

Hi, I recently picked up a duckhunt Vs. PPU and plan to install it in my AV famicom (1st revision).  I plan to use a THS7314 amp to amplify the RGB lines and wire them to the multi out and just use an external converter.

My question is, do pins 14,15,16 need to be lifted when grabbing the RGB signal?  I recall reading some cases where people mentioned not lifting them but after reading this thread people mention they must be lifted.  Any clarification on this?  Maybe it's only for the Toaster style NES's?  I also plan to put a 0.1uF ceramic capacitor between pins 20 and 22 which was said to significantly reduce jailbars.

Anyone know for sure?  Thanks.

This is more or less what you need to do for the RGB pins, otherwise you will be shorting the RGB output to ground:

[CaptainScurvy]

Ok so they must not be connected to the pcb, got it, thanks.

[CaptainScurvy]

Just completed installing it and it looks great.  However I have pretty prominent jailbars that you can see extremely well on the savestate mapper menu on the powerpak, this is coming directly from my capture card (they're also visible on my tv just as well):




It's also visible in games, you can see them in the brownish background of the castlevania logo:




It's an AV famicom (rev 1).  I'm using a THS7314 amplifier that is as close to the ppu as I can get it.  The amp is powered by pin 40, and grounded using pin 20 of the PPU.  I also placed a 0.1uF capacitor between pins 20 and 22. 

Any idea's on how to reduce the jailbars perhaps?

EDIT:

Here's the amp I created (that capacitor between the ground and 5v is not shorting those pins before anyone asks ) and how everything is wired.  Ignore the wire on the top left near the cartridge slot, it's just ground for a LED.

[Drakon]

NES powerpak increases jailbars, I use the famicom n8.  Here's my rgb twin famicom:









Drakon RGB Twin Famicom Demo

Jailbar free rgb or true s-video on my tv, two audio circuits real time selectable with a switch at the back, n64 multi av port, nes controller ports, replaced the expansion port with a standard port, no extra holes cut into the nice looking case, and the fds drive works.

...oh yes and I swapped that chip so the nes powerpak will work even though I now use the n8.

[CaptainScurvy]

That doesn't really help the situation, that's just masking the issue.  The jailbars are still present on actual carts.  They are more prominent on the powerpak however.  I'm gonna move the power for the amp off the PPU and get it straight from the regulator.  Getting the 5v off the PPU to the amp seems silly to me now that I think about it.  The issue appears to be with power draw as the jailbars become more visible with the powerpak.

Have you tried running that 'jail bar free' twin famicom on a LCD?  The jail bars don't show up nearly as much and pretty much disappear when I use a CRT.  Try a LCD and see if there are still no jailbars.

And holy crap, go easy on that hot glue.

[Drakon]

That doesn't really help the situation, that's just masking the issue.  The jailbars are still present on actual carts.  They are more prominent on the powerpak however.  I'm gonna move the power for the amp off the PPU and get it straight from the regulator.  Getting the 5v off the PPU to the amp seems silly to me now that I think about it.  The issue appears to be with power draw as the jailbars become more visible with the powerpak.

Have you tried running that 'jail bar free' twin famicom on a LCD?  The jail bars don't show up nearly as much and pretty much disappear when I use a CRT.  Try a LCD and see if there are still no jailbars.

And holy crap, go easy on that hot glue.

I don't have a lcd but on my capture card which picks up every form of interference imaginable there's no jailbars on it unless I use my powerpak.  The purpose of the hot glue is to avoid shorts, I can remove it very easily just takes a little patience.

[CaptainScurvy]

I've moved the power for the ths7314 amp from pin 40 on the ppu straight from the regulator.  I also lifted pin 17 on the ppu and wired it straight to the Multi-out ground.  No change in the jailbars unfortunately.



Anyone have any suggestions other than don't use a powerpak?  The bars are still present with real carts and almost completely disappear when using a crt.

EDIT:

I'm starting to wonder if the problem is coming from the SN74HC373N I ordered.  I used this exact part:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SN74HC373N/296-1591-5-ND/277237

I never bothered to see if the Texas Instruments LS that came with the av famicom worked as I just went right ahead and placed it with the HC because of other reports.  I think this may be the cause because there are sometimes minor graphical glitches that occur.  I'm going to try to put the original back in tonight if I have time if not tomorrow.

Can anyone list the exact 74HC373 they used (part # or link to a site that sells it) to replace in their NES's that works with the power pak?

[Drakon]

The 373n isn't the problem.  I also made a mistake my twin famicom isn't jailbar free on my capture device, but on my crt it's jailbar free.  There's actually a good thread on my personal forum with lots of great solutions to further remove jailbars, it's stickied in the "work in progress" section.

Skips took jailbar removal to a whole new level.  I only took it so far because I play my systems on a crt.

[CaptainScurvy]

I tried every single one of those about an hour ago, minus putting a cap on the CPU and shielding the ppu because I have no copper tape and none of them had any affect.  I even took before and after screenshots to make sure if there was any difference and none showed.

Putting a 220uF cap between the PPU's ground and 5v is overkill, you shouldn't need any more than a 0.1uF, but just to entertain the idea, I tried a 220uF anyways just to be certain I try what someone else suggested to remove the bars and it did absolutely nothing.  Lifting pin 21 and wiring it directly to the multiout did nothing.  I kept all these changes as I did them and tested video each time I added one and no change ever occurred in the appearance of the jailbars.    Giving the amp power and ground from the PPU does indeed clean up the bars a little, so I changed that back.

I will try shielding the ppu this week, I ordered some copper foil from amazon as I've read in this thread that actually gave results to a few members here.  Unfortunately most of that list did absolutely nothing, at least for an AV famicom.

[CaptainScurvy]

Ok, today I pulled the HC373 out and put the orginal LS373 in and I get the vertical striped lines with the powerpak.  It also changed nothing with the jailbars, I tried a real cart while it was in and they were still present.  I also tested putting a 68pf cap between pin 24 and 20 and this caused major graphical glitches in games such as rc pro am, do not do this.  I also found that putting a 0.1uF cap between 20 & 22 also makes the graphical glitches worsen, but very slightly, so I removed that as well.

I'm really hoping the shielding on the ppu is going to get rid of them to the point they don't distract me anymore.  Another thing I'm going to do is get the amp closer to the ppu but just wiring the caps straight off the rgb lines to the amp rather than using wires.

[Tighe]

Ok, today I pulled the HC373 out and put the orginal LS373 in and I get the vertical striped lines with the powerpak.  It also changed nothing with the jailbars, I tried a real cart while it was in and they were still present.  I also tested putting a 68pf cap between pin 24 and 20 and this caused major graphical glitches in games such as rc pro am, do not do this.  I also found that putting a 0.1uF cap between 20 & 22 also makes the graphical glitches worsen, but very slightly, so I removed that as well.

I'm really hoping the shielding on the ppu is going to get rid of them to the point they don't distract me anymore.  Another thing I'm going to do is get the amp closer to the ppu but just wiring the caps straight off the rgb lines to the amp rather than using wires.

Get a Playchoice 10 and install 2600's NES cart adapter. I have zero jail bars on it with the powerpak.

Now my Vs Red Tent is a whole other issue. It has pretty strong jail bars on vs smb when vs castlevania is on the other side. I may try some of these suggested fixes and see if it will work on a vs board.

I don't have much hope though in a tiny metal cocktail with two rgb monitors and a board with two.linked nes systems on it.

Here is a link to order 2600's adapter, this still probably be the last batch he does the way he is talking. $65 is a great deal!

http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=277308

[CaptainScurvy]

Ok, today I pulled the HC373 out and put the orginal LS373 in and I get the vertical striped lines with the powerpak.  It also changed nothing with the jailbars, I tried a real cart while it was in and they were still present.  I also tested putting a 68pf cap between pin 24 and 20 and this caused major graphical glitches in games such as rc pro am, do not do this.  I also found that putting a 0.1uF cap between 20 & 22 also makes the graphical glitches worsen, but very slightly, so I removed that as well.

I'm really hoping the shielding on the ppu is going to get rid of them to the point they don't distract me anymore.  Another thing I'm going to do is get the amp closer to the ppu but just wiring the caps straight off the rgb lines to the amp rather than using wires.

Get a Playchoice 10 and install 2600's NES cart adapter. I have zero jail bars on it with the powerpak.

Now my Vs Red Tent is a whole other issue. It has pretty strong jail bars on vs smb when vs castlevania is on the other side. I may try some of these suggested fixes and see if it will work on a vs board.

I don't have much hope though in a tiny metal cocktail with two rgb monitors and a board with two.linked nes systems on it.

Here is a link to order 2600's adapter, this still probably be the last batch he does the way he is talking. $65 is a great deal!

http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=277308

Ya, that's not the solution I'm looking for though.  If I wanted to lug a playchoice PCB around I guess that'd be fine, but the whole purpose of doing this is to have a nice small console (av famicom) that does rgb and plays NES games, I'm not looking for anything 'supergun'ish. 

I'm hoping rebuilding the amp and shielding the ppu (I'll also do the CPU) will get the results I'll be satisfied with. 

Does anyone know if the RC2C05-4's are supposed to have no jailbars?

[Tighe]

Yeah, I suppose it isn't very portable, although it could be if one were to consolize a PC10 board:

As you can see it isn't very large.


And the countertop isn't huge by any means (heavy yes) 

[CaptainScurvy]

Got the copper shielding in today.  I shielded the PPU in 4 layers of copper shielding and the CPU in 2 (grounded both of course).  It seemed to improve the bars, but not very much:





I'm thinking the bars are just a part of the PPU itself and nothing you can do about except run it through an encoder that can filter them out.

[CaptainScurvy]

So, I made my final attempt at removing the jailbars tonight. 

I replaced the THS7314 with a NCS2553 that I had lying around.  Now I get a better picture, but the jailbars are more visible on black screens, I've decided to stay with the NCS2553 because the colors are more vibrant, at least to me.







The 2nd thing I tried because it's been bugging me, is I wired a 2nd 7805 regulator to the 9v source and powered the video amplifier seperate from the 5v rail the AV Famicom was using.  This showed no improvement at all.

So I guess I'll just have to live with the jailbars,  I'm too lazy to try and transport this thing to my NES-101 as everything I've tried so far has failed and it appears the bars are just part of the ppu.

• Shielding the PPU (possibly the CPU also since I did both) helps slightly.
• Moving the amp as close as possible helps slightly.
• cap between 20 & 22 does nothing
• cap between 20 & 40 does nothing
• cap between 20 & 24 actually caused more graphical glitches, I do not recommend doing this.
• Lifting pin 17 and grounding it to video ground does nothing.
• Lifting pin 21 and wiring it to the multi-out's composite sync without going through the pcb does nothing.

I'm out of ideas.  Would love to see someone else try and tackle this with an AV famicom without using an encoder to filter them out.  Oh well.  I gave it my best .

[Salamander]

The 101 really shouldn't make any difference and you'd actually lose expansion sound without further modification.  If your photos are how it looks on your actual tv then they are pretty severe.  Have you tried a different television?  I use a Sony PVM-20M4U and never noticed them as strongly as you show here minus a few exceptional titles like Castlevania 2.  If you are willing to encode to either s-video or component any interference you have should dramatically improve.

[CaptainScurvy]

They're actually much worse on the TV.  I can't see them in the powerpak menu with the capture card, but they are very clear on a TV.

[Tighe]

I have tried ab bunch of things to get rid of the jailbars on my Vs.  My next step is to re-cap the board and monitors.

Here is a NES cart of Kid Icarus running on my PC10 with a Sanyo 20EZV arcade monitor, note there are no jailbars:



Now on my Vs Red Tent there are jailbars on both monitors, it could be the PPU or it could be the Sharp XM-1801  monitors.

It is easier to photograph on the Vs Castlevania side even though to the eye the Vs SMB is worse:

[CaptainScurvy]

Ya, I'm pretty certain the jailbars are just in the PPU itself, the jailbars in your castlevania screenshot appear exactly the way mine are.  Seems the only way to get rid of them is to filter them out.  I'm going to try and get a hold of a RC2C05 and see if that improves the picture.

[Tighe]

Ya, I'm pretty certain the jailbars are just in the PPU itself, the jailbars in your castlevania screenshot appear exactly the way mine are.  Seems the only way to get rid of them is to filter them out.  I'm going to try and get a hold of a RC2C05 and see if that improves the picture.

I might try putting my Vs Pinball PPU on it and see if the jailbars go away.  The colors will be wrong but it will be a good test.  If I recall correctly Vs Pinball didn't cause any jailbars.

[CaptainScurvy]

Good idea, please post your results.  I'm eventually just gonna take this PPU and put it in a Toaster NES and just send it through an s-video encoder.  I've got around 5 CXA2075M's lying around so might as well put them to use.

[CaptainScurvy]

Decided to try one more thing today before I switch PPU's to a 2C05.  This time I powered the PPU on a separate 5V rail from a 7805 going through a pi filter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor-input_filter).  So pin 40 was lifted and powered using this new circuit and it cleaned up the picture quite a bit, but the bars were still present.  However they were just as visible on the powerpak as they were on a normal cart.  Usually the powerpak makes them worse, probably because it draws more power, this did make them the same visibility as using a real cart.  They become much more crisp and clean but did not remove them as they were still plenty visible.

It did clear some vertical lines I would get during black screens however.  Here are some screen shots with the pi filter and separate 5v rail for the ppu:





So still noticeable, just cleaned up a bit.

However, what was a noticable improvement was these vertical white/colored bars i'd get over black screens:



If you look closely at the screen capture above, inbetween the 'FIGHT' 'AUTO' and 'PSI' 'Guard' there are these vertical faint white bars.  Also above 'Lvl' 'Hp' 'Pp' They are more visible in another screen:



^ You can see them on the top and bottom of the screen and are now greenish/yellow like the hotel room, may need to see the full size image to see.

With the 5v rail and pi filter, these bars are nearly invisible (you can still barely see them by changing the color curve or adjusting the gamma):



Definitely an improvement.  For others trying to remove jailbars, try powering the PPU on it's own 5V rail and run it through a pi filter.  I still feel that the PPU jailbars are caused by the PPU itself and nothing you can do about it.

The pi filter was an idea given to me by marshallh,  this is the diagram he suggest to use:

[Drakon]

Scurvey, move the rgb amp on top of the cpu so you can shorten the rgb lines between the ppu and the amp by 1 cm or so.  I'm serious, that will make a difference.  With these systems every mm of distance between the ppu and the encoder / amp makes a difference from my experience.

Here's an upgrade I did to my twin famicom thanks to a great suggestion by skips:



It's probably impossible to 100% remove the jailbars without completely redoing the system pcb layout.  I would never trust using a crt as the ultimate way to know if your system is truly "jailbar free".

Here's kirby's adventure from my twin on my crt via s-video:



Here's the same s-video signal fed into my capture device which picks up far more interference than any tv probably ever will:



I know some people who're working on a fpga / cpld device that uses the digital signals from the composite ppu to generate rgb.  This should remove the jailbars for good as well as allowing you to use the original composite pallette.  In my system the rgb travels less than 1 cm from the ppu to the sony cxa2075 amp / encoder chip.

The RC2C05 ppu doesn't improve jailbars.  I know this because these screenshots in this post are generated from a RC2C05.

Also saying "the powerpak adds noise because of power draw" isn't correct, the powerpak is just poorly designed.  The famicom n8 probably draws just as much power from the system as the powerpak does and the n8 doesn't increase the jailbars at all.  All of my personal systems are modified for super clean video and all the krikzz flash devices I purchased for these systems didn't add any video interference.  Krikzz just knows how to engineer things properly.

If I were the guess the cause of the jailbars I would say pcb layout design, which we can't fix without making an entirely redesigned nes / famicom pcb.  With the rgb nes / famicom mod all you can do to help with jailbars is a few simple tricks.  Trying to actually remove or filter out jailbars has been attempted by so many people over the years, I feel like we're sort of beating a dead horse at this point.  I got the jailbars so clean that to see them I'd have to be directly infront of my tv, once I got it this good I called it a day.  At least you people aren't running around saying "ZOMFG teh RC2C05 probably has the composite ppu pallette!".  For a while I was getting e-mails and private messages about this rumor.  Wishing something were true or possible to fix doesn't mean it can happen.  At this point for super sensitive LCDs you're looking at buying some sort of upscaler that filters the pixels, which can have the same effect as me running a rgb famicom s-video capture through some virtualdub smart smoother filters resulting in something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlUHkO1nbVA

With a CRT just doing the tricks myself and skips came up with does the job, as well as not buying a nes poweprak.

[CaptainScurvy]

The amp is directly over the ppu.  I've already mentioned this, the legs of the 0.1uF caps coming from the RGB lines are soldered directly to the ppu and to the amp, I can't get it any closer.

And I think you're wrong about the powerpak vs n8.  Unless you have some sort of technical explanation, I'm gonna go with my own theory as powering the ppu alone seems to fix that issue suggesting the powerpak is drawing more power than a regular cart would.

I already mentioned I tried just about every suggested you and skips made and it made no difference what so ever.   Having the amp as close as possible and shielding the ppu were the only 2 that made a minor difference, all the others ones did absolutely nothing.

As far as the C05 not clearing jailbars, that may be the case, but at least I won't be dealing with some of the graphical glitches.

[Drakon]

Famicom done right!

Captain:  All I know is in a system where everything is powered by the regular 7805 power regulator the famicom n8 doesn't add jailbars and the nes powerpak does.  I'm reading here

http://krikzz.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=59

It says the n8 has:

"Voltage shift buffers on PPU and CPU bus for matching levels between 5v NES bus and 3.3 EverDrive bus. Far better than simple resistor buffers at reducing noise and power consumption."

Could be less power consumption, or maybe it's less noise.  The super powerpak adds interference in snes systems with that translucent bar in the middle of the screen.  In my systems the bar went from being clear translucent to green translucent.  Whatever the reason, everdrives just don't add interference like the powerpaks do.

[Tighe]

Good point, back in 2001 when I made a portable NES I removed the rf modular and ran the NES directly of 5v DC (battery) vs the 9v AC that runs into the amp RF modular.

I noticed that the composite video was much cleaner than a standard NES afterwards.

The info is on this site, you can see where I connected the +5v.

http://nesp.tighelory.com

Also you should see if you have a ground loop between your tv and famicom twin.

Look it up on Wikipedia, I would try eliminating everything else connecting to your tv. Have just the famicom and the tv, don't connect it to cable tv or anything.