15.75kHz RGBS on Panasonic TH-50VX100U!!!

[RGB32E]

TH-50VX100U ($4,499 store price):
Yesterday I took my SNES and RGB cable w/DB25M to HDDB15M adapter to a local high-end audio video store to test out the PC input on the Panasonic Premiere plasma!!!  This is essentially a commercial Panasonic plasma (PDP) intended for use in custom home theatre installations.  I connected my SNES via RGB to the PC input, and it works!!!  The scaling is overall very good, however, it has some nagging problems that prohibit purchase, and cannot be adjusted...  When displaying a static image, it looks perfect.  However, when there is any motion/animation, the set does some wierd interpolation (like the HQ2X effect found in many emulators).  So, I'm wondering if the existing commercial panasonic PDPs do this as well.  I tried both Super Metroid and Contra III... and anytime there is any scrolling, the screen blurs (not like an LCD though).   Also, this quasi-pro PDP had dramatically lower amount yellow/blue phosphor trials than any other PDP I've ever seen...    Going through a door in Super Metroid had very short yellow/blue trails... a big improvement IMO.  

Also, while I was able to change the aspect ratio of the signal to 4:3, the set displayed gray pillar bars that could not be changed to black (to avoid uneven wear).  Funny thing is, that there was a black boarder around the SNES image inside of the 4:3 area...    

Dispite going through all available picture modes an settings, nothing would get rid of the weird motion HQ2X effect.  Hence, phosphor trails/artifacts were not bothersome to me (major big deal on the Pioneer KUROs), but the pixel/motion interpolation kind of spoiled it for me...  


PRO-101FD ($3,499 store price - display model discount):
The local dealer also had their last Pioneer plasma monitor on display (PRO-101FD).  I tried the PC input on that... looks like a sync splitter is required to get an image (was expecting separate H&V, but I didn't have any devices to do that with me).  However, changing the PC input mode to one of two component video modes, a picture was displayed!!!  So, even though component video was selected for the PC input, the monitor did accept the composite sync... this isn't to say that the resulting image was correct.... very pink/purple and no green...    On top of that, the aspect ratio could not be changed, so the image was stretched to fill the 16:9 screen!  On top of that, in the Contra III intro, where the large text of "THE ALIEN WARS HAVE BEGUN!!!", the Pioneer monitor exhibited a tripple ball effect... not exactly trails of any sort, but several ghosted images...  So, even though PDPs give smoother motion overall than LCDs to date... they are not perfect by any means!

[Fudoh]

The professional Panasonic displays accept a very wide range of input signals. There was a time (2 generations back I think') when the VGA input on those accepted 1080p24 while the HDMI/DVI ports didn't do so (yet). From what I remember from previous sets the underscanning on low-resolution is about normal. The grey borders can be changed to black in the service menu. The 15khz RGBs signal is running through an processor which first upconverts the picture to 31khz and then scales it. The signal is treated like interlaced which causes the interpolation/blur on movement. It's the very thing the DVDO scalers do or did prior to the 240p updates for the Edge and the 50pro.

[RGB32E]

The professional Panasonic displays accept a very wide range of input signals. There was a time (2 generations back I think') when the VGA input on those accepted 1080p24 while the HDMI/DVI ports didn't do so (yet). From what I remember from previous sets the underscanning on low-resolution is about normal. The grey borders can be changed to black in the service menu. The 15khz RGBs signal is running through an processor which first upconverts the picture to 31khz and then scales it. The signal is treated like interlaced which causes the interpolation/blur on movement. It's the very thing the DVDO scalers do or did prior to the 240p updates for the Edge and the 50pro.

So, the point being is that a DVDO Edge or VP50Pro is really the only way to go for 240p gaming on a 1080p flat panel?  I know your comparisons of products, but it does seem like the Edge is the best overall solution (unless you need the VP50Pros analog output).  I don't see how the XRGBs would be much help, since the display would have to do it's own scaling to get to the appropriate resolution and aspect ratio (softening the picture in the process).  The XRGB-3 reportedly has a decent amout of input lag and you've noted its bugs....

Does your Sony X3500 exhibit the same motion issues (as described with the Panny VX100U) with 240p via component (SNES RGB -> XS-4/FC-14 -> compnent input)?
()()()()()()()()

EDIT:
http://www.anchorbaytech.com/dvdo_edge/EDGE_firmware_v1.1.php

Does the latest Edge FW (1.2.2) improve any aspects of gamemode compat/perf?

Update (20. Dec 2008): 240p material via RGBs is treatly correctly as 240p with the latest firmware.

So, has anything improved? V1.1 -> V1.2.2

[Fudoh]

So, the point being is that a DVDO Edge or VP50Pro is really the only way to go for 240p gaming on a 1080p flat panel?

not really. Only if you want ONE processor everything. For 240p I solely use my XRGB-3 since my Sony does perfect upscaling of VGA signals to 1080p. The Panasonic should shine there as well. When you input 31khz instead of 15khz you bypass the deinterlacing (=interpolation) schemes. You really have to see the two halfs of the processing, one is getting the SD signal to 31khz and the other one's the scaling and I really can approve the newer display's scaling engines. They're suited quite well for retrogaming purposes and I even prefer my Sony's scaling to the Scaling of my 50pro (for 240p or 480p videogames). The XRGB-3 has a minor delay or less than 6ms in it's linedoubling mode.

The Sony X3500 does handle 240p correctly, though it's upscaling for 240p signals is not too sharp (if you check the comparison Metal Slug X titles shots on my page, the X3500 is among them).

I don't watch the retail firmware versions. The latest beta (v89) has added deep color support and all the gaming signal issues had been resolved for quite a whilte (v60 or something like this). There are exactly three points which I would critizice about the Edge: a) with 240p signals and Gamemode turned on you cannot use the sharpening settings, b) the scaling engine causes vertical halos (ringing), ESPECIALLY for 240p content and c) there's no scanline function. Otherwise it's the most versatile processor in years and the only one besides the 50pro and the XRGB3 which treats 240p as that.

[RGB32E]

The Sony X3500 does handle 240p correctly, though it's upscaling for 240p signals is not too sharp (if you check the comparison Metal Slug X titles shots on my page, the X3500 is among them).

So bascially, if I went out and bought a Sony KDL-52XBR9 (BE3) and connected 240P RGB -> FC-14 -> XBR9 component input, the picture might be on the soft side, but all pixels would be defined (though soft) and motion issues would be solely caused by the LCD pixel response time and driving?

[Fudoh]

That's right. Our european models have RGB Scart inputs as well, so I tried a Super Famicom via RGBs and the picture was quite nice. The processing delay is not zero, but very acceptable. The response time of the display is not a problem, but black lines still tend to blur a bit (problem of all the large MVA/PVA panels). On the other hand - and don't misunderstand me - in the class of equipment you're using I would REALLY add an XRGB the the setup. I mean I could *live* with the X3500's 240p picture, but when I spend this kind of money on a TV, I wouldn't (and didn't) mind adding a XRGB.

[RGB32E]

Yeah, I recall hearing about the dark red ghosting of black areas on movement with the '07 XBRs.  The '09 XBRs appear to have made a few incremental steps forward in terms of PQ.  I had thought about going with the XBR8 (LED), but the fact that game mode disables local dimming (and price fixing in the US) kinda killed that.  With Sony LCDs, you can lower the color temp in gamemode (Warm X), whereas samsung displays you cannot... but that's going on a tangent.  I suppose I'll find out if I'm craving to try an XRGB in a couple of weeks.    XRGB units are hard to track down, and some used models have been ruined by using a Euro SCART RGB cable on them.   So, PM me if you have details. 

[NFG]

My panasonic plasma is similar to the one you tested, RGB32E.  If you feed it a SNES or other non-interlaced signal the deinterlacing in the TV just ruins everything that moves.  By using an XRGB or similar upscaler to create VGA-res signal before sending it to the TV, as Fudoh says, things look much nicer.  For example, running my Dreamcast via VGA is perhaps a little soft but ultra stable and gloriously fun to play.  Now if only my XRGB2 power supply wasn't toast...

[RGB32E]

My panasonic plasma is similar to the one you tested, RGB32E.  If you feed it a SNES or other non-interlaced signal the deinterlacing in the TV just ruins everything that moves.  By using an XRGB or similar upscaler to create VGA-res signal before sending it to the TV, as Fudoh says, things look much nicer.  For example, running my Dreamcast via VGA is perhaps a little soft but ultra stable and gloriously fun to play.  Now if only my XRGB2 power supply wasn't toast...

LOL   Sounds like you finally made the plunge from a SD TV to a PDP!    Which model did you get?  I guess PDPs in AU haven't been banned yet.    I'm sure the XRGB2 power supply could be replaced with an upgraded one of sorts...  

[NFG]

I have a panasonic TH-P50X10A.  Only 720p 'cause 1080p was double the price (and fuck $4k for a TV thanks).  A short discussion on it is right here.

[RGB32E]

Ahh... the AU equivalent of the TC-P50X1 (goes for about $900 USD).  From what you posted about your TV, it seems the TH-50VX100 (goes for $4500 USD.. yes 5x cost) displays a perfect image with 240P via RGB on PC input when the signal is showing a static image...  either way, looks like XRGB wins again.... though I still will try the FC-14 route at first! 

[NFG]

Buying in Australia is painful.  TV prices are 50-100% more for the same model.  If your VX100 goes for $4500 THERE, it'll be $8k here easy.  And we only get a choice between LG, Samsung and Panasonic.  Except for some leftover Pioneers, there are no other plasma makers selling in Australia now.

I thought the Pioneers were sold through already, but one shop I was in on Friday had two models on the floor...  Next to some of the best LCDs from Sony and Sharp and the Koreans.  Boy, LCDs sure do suck still.  Despite having such advances in their refresh rates the dimming and blurring during any kind of motion is just revolting.

[RGB32E]

Buying in Australia is painful.  TV prices are 50-100% more for the same model.  If your VX100 goes for $4500 THERE, it'll be $8k here easy.  And we only get a choice between LG, Samsung and Panasonic.  Except for some leftover Pioneers, there are no other plasma makers selling in Australia now. I thought the Pioneers were sold through already, but one shop I was in on Friday had two models on the floor...  

The same holds true for the US as well - Panasonic, LG, Samsung, and the remaining stock of '08 models (plus the KR'a'P monitors).  Hitachi, Fujitsu, Runco, and NEC were not exactly the "best" models out there (though some with Fujitsu and Runco models may beg to differ).

Next to some of the best LCDs from Sony and Sharp and the Koreans.  Boy, LCDs sure do suck still.  Despite having such advances in their refresh rates the dimming and blurring during any kind of motion is just revolting.

Yes, LCDs pale in comparison to CRT in terms of motion (PDPs are much better in this regard).  However, there are PWM artifacts associated with PDPs that can negatively affect motion.  

Had Sony's FED and Canon's SED not been sh*t-canned, we would have had a flat panel that could be impluse driven, just like a CRT.  

Larger OLED panels are expected to be released around the end of the year from LG, Samsung, and Sony.  LG will have their "huge" 15" model at years end, Samsung has production ready 31" (and 40" within 6 months), and Sony should be releasing a 21".  Point being, that OLED displays are beautiful, don't dim with bright scenes (PDPs), can be driven to give CRT level of motion (I have observed Sony's XEL-1 a number of times  )... but a XRGBx is still needed for retro gaming...  

[Endymion]

Also, while I was able to change the aspect ratio of the signal to 4:3, the set displayed gray pillar bars that could not be changed to black (to avoid uneven wear).  Funny thing is, that there was a black boarder around the SNES image inside of the 4:3 area...

It's my understanding that the option to use grey pillarboxes are used in order to avoid uneven wear, not to cause it. I mean, if you spent enough time in 4.3 with pillarboxes of any grey shade or black, you would have uneven wear in your screen, if you did this consistently. Nothing short of using the full screen will really avoid that entirely. At any rate the pro plasmas allow you to change the grey shade (I think there are at least three) and you can drop to black from the standard menus, probably can do this on consumer sets through a service menu.

Edit: Actually, are you sure that isn't a pro plasma? It's listed that way on their site, it even has the minimalist frame that is common to their pro line, the consumer sets usually have larger frames, speakers on the side, etc. etc.

For example, running my Dreamcast via VGA is perhaps a little soft but ultra stable and gloriously fun to play.

I have a panasonic TH-P50X10A.  Only 720p 'cause 1080p was double the price (and fuck $4k for a TV thanks).  A short discussion on it is right here.

Looks like its res is 1366x768, is your 360 showing a res lower than that? My TH50PHD8UK is the same res and it's excellent with all things Dreamcasty, might ought to fiddle with menus, even its 640x480 looks quite sharp. (If nice, big and chunky polys in that 1999 way.)

[RGB32E]

It's my understanding that the option to use grey pillarboxes are used in order to avoid uneven wear, not to cause it. I mean, if you spent enough time in 4.3 with pillarboxes of any grey shade or black, you would have uneven wear in your screen, if you did this consistently. Nothing short of using the full screen will really avoid that entirely. At any rate the pro plasmas allow you to change the grey shade (I think there are at least three) and you can drop to black from the standard menus, probably can do this on consumer sets through a service menu.

Edit: Actually, are you sure that isn't a pro plasma? It's listed that way on their site, it even has the minimalist frame that is common to their pro line, the consumer sets usually have larger frames, speakers on the side, etc. etc.

The VX100U essentially "IS" from their pro commercial line - an update from the 11 series intended for the high-end custom install market.  I didn't find the menu option to change the pillar bar color.  My main goal with the VX100U series was to determine what kind of picture it gives when fed low rez RGB.  Turns out that some other solution is still required (XRGBx) to get the best picture, since if the image being displayed isn't static, the picture gets munched!

[undamned]

Boy, LCDs sure do suck still.  Despite having such advances in their refresh rates the dimming and blurring during any kind of motion is just revolting.

Well, maybe LCD TV's, but PC LCD Monitors have some real zingers.  Dell's 1908 has great contrast and zero blur.  One of the few quality non-wide screen LCD's I know of.  I have the 17" version of it and it's awesome.
-ud

[NFG]

There are no LCDs with 'zero blur'.  You're right that some of the new ones have very little blur, but even the best are still nowhere near as good as the old CRTs.

[undamned]

I guess that means you've never used one of those Dells  

When I said zero blur I guess I should have said I've never seen blur on it.  5ms response time is pretty fast.  Can you see that?  I can't.  Specs on my unit here:
http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&sku=320-7683
-ud