Views on Piracy

[kendrick]

Playing devil's advocate for a bit, I have to ask... In the case of non-perishable, tangible consumable goods (as opposed to intellectual and virtual property like software) what is the loss to the consumer if a counterfeit product is equal to or better than the real thing? It's one thing if the fake Wilson tennis racket is made out of cheap pine and breaks the first time Steffi Graf gets a grip on it. It's quite another when the bootleg IBM-branded monitor actually has a superior picture tube and longer-lasting wiring. Of course, superior bootlegs come at a price too, and usually the trade-off is poor working conditions and environmental hazards for the people making them.

Coming back on topic? The logical response to software piracy is for developers to take it to the ASP model, or application service provider model. That is, all software that they want to protect will be available only on a networked server, and no individual media is available to the consumer to copy or to redistribute. This is already well-established in the business world, and we're starting to see it take root in gaming with MMORPG games and the Xbox Live service.

This will pretty much kill our ability to enjoy retro gaming, as our children will be able to plug in NES cartridges but will not be able to experience Final Fantasy XI as we have. It also limits gaming to people who are able to afford Internet services (and who have the ability or money to resolve connectivity issues.) If you thought that Sony, Microsoft and EA were done squeezing the joy and the life out of gaming, you should also realize that there's so much more left to lose.

-KKC, who is way depressed now. Time to shop.

[NFG]

It's already happened.  Online Dreamcast games were doomed the instant they were released; no one believed for a heartbeat Sega would continue to support them for long.  

But then, what's the alternative?  No more persistant online games?  That'd be a greater crime, IMO.

[Vertigo]

I was talking about electronic distribution a bit last night with my girlfriend coz of something she said about iTunes and she feels the same as me.
She likes her audio CDs and enjoys being able to flick through them and choose something to put into a device and listen to, same with me and games. Call us old fashioned, but we like to have something physical and tangible to hold in our hands - proof that we've actually paid for something.
And what happens when you've paid �30 for access to a game, for example, get 10 years down the line and your storage device fails or the game's no longer supported by the publisher and has been pulled from their server? What then? They're hardly going to give away a new product to you as compensation, are they?
I think the way to beat piracy if customers are still to receive a physical item is to use completely custom media where there are no instances of duplication hardware available for purchase. Nintendo have never had piracy problems on the scale of Sony or Microsoft who both used standard media with a hardware lockout for their consoles. Nintendo's biggest problem and bugbear is emulation, but trying to stop that's a bit of a lost cause really, whereas you can go down to a market and get copied PS2 and XBox games for a few quid each, with a notable lack of pirated Gamecube stuff around and I think that'd still be the case even if the machine was the most popular.

[kendrick]

It's already happened.  Online Dreamcast games were doomed the instant they were released; no one believed for a heartbeat Sega would continue to support them for long.

I would argue that in the case of Dreamcast games, the online component was a bonus feature but not the primary draw of the game. Quake III, Bomberman, even the beloved Phantasy Star Online all had offline modes that constituted the bulk of the gaming experience. More importantly, you can continue to play those games even now that the server-side components are gone. Sega's continuing support really was never an advantage or disadvantage for those games.

The alternative isn't to drop persistent online gaming worlds entirely, but nobody hasn't found that middle ground where profitability and longevity meet. Also, there have been more than a couple of scholarly texts on the subject of an online game being a recurring expense for a company, as opposed to a pure profit exercise that retro game reprints can be for the same company. I don't think there will be a viable solution to software piracy until gaming ceases to be a niche hobby with a stigma... Nobody's pirating the PIC code in my refrigerator control box, and nobody will pirate games either when the gaming machine becomes the standard-issue suburban appliance. As it stands right now, the game console is still a moderately expensive mystery box that kooks like us admit to owning.

That's a little more concise that I would like to be, but I'm tired and lacking in creativity right now. Just be thankful I didn't go on for pages like I usually do.

-KKC, who failed to spend money over lunch. Subgoal: spend money before arriving home!

[Endymion]

I was talking about electronic distribution a bit last night with my girlfriend coz of something she said about iTunes and she feels the same as me.
She likes her audio CDs and enjoys being able to flick through them and choose something to put into a device and listen to, same with me and games. Call us old fashioned, but we like to have something physical and tangible to hold in our hands - proof that we've actually paid for something.

Backing up to the iTunes example, you do know you can rip your physical tangible CDs with iTunes right? You do know that was its first use also I hope. How about the limitless CDs that you can burn from stuff you bought from iTMS? (Which I am guessing is what your conversation was really about.) There are "digital data" providers who "get it," I think.

[NFG]

Last I heard Itunes was restricting the number of burns for their content.

My problem with DRM is twofold:

1. I hate real CDs.  I like their durability and their quality, but when I move or travel I curse their very existence.  Heavy, and not very data-dense.  It takes a 20kg pile of CDs to equal my 300g music player stuffed full of OGG files.  And this is where the idea falls down.  Copyright nazis would freak out if they found 2,000 audio files on my harddrive, unless I could prove I bought them.  Having to lug around heavy, tangible proof is a PITA.  What about the rips I made of CDs I've since thrown away?  Do I have to delete them now?  Bullshit, I say.  The whole idea of ownership in a digital age needs to be completely re-thought.

2. Don't limit me.  Fuck off, I bought it, I own it.  NONE of these limits stop actual pirates.  They ONLY harm legitimate purchasers.  This goes for showing "Don't steal movies!" to people in the theatre too, it's fucking insulting.

[Endymion]

Last I heard Itunes was restricting the number of burns for their content.

1. Nope.
2. Even if they were to attempt this they ultimately cannot stop you from reripping the CD you just burned, which will render all tracks exactly like the ones you purchased and burned originally--MINUS THE DRM.

[Vertigo]

2. Don't limit me.  Fuck off, I bought it, I own it.  NONE of these limits stop actual pirates.  They ONLY harm legitimate purchasers.  This goes for showing "Don't steal movies!" to people in the theatre too, it's fucking insulting.

I agree. They're telling the wrong people not to pirate movies. Those who wouldn't, don't. Those that are happy to are still going to go to the market or download them. Just like with drugs, aiming your campaign at the end user is a huge waste of time and effort from start to finish.
I think the main worry is this whole Microsoft OS licensing thing creeping into the gaming space, with Microsoft insisting that certain items are licensed to you for use only. That would suggest to me that the situation could quite happily take a few steps down the chain and, as I alluded to above, when a certain company decides they don't want to support a product any more, they can quite happily cut all links with people who paid for the games ten years ago but only received data in return. If data is the only way numerous items will be distributed, surely making a backup for fair use in the case of data loss must now be allowed, but certain parties, particularly Nintendo, have always expressly stated that it's not authorised.
It's another sign of how throwaway and consumerist modern life is.

And Endymion: If I wanted a 'burned' CD I would have just downloaded the stuff and done it myself. The tangible proof of having bought something is the inlay, original artwork, extra stuff, not just giving the data some form of physicality.

[kendrick]

If I wanted a 'burned' CD I would have just downloaded the stuff and done it myself. The tangible proof of having bought something is the inlay, original artwork, extra stuff, not just giving the data some form of physicality.

This may be what ends up saving games. Physical and media extras, and pretty packaging, is one of the things that movie distributors touted as a reason to update from VHS to DVD. The argument is similar; if the data and the experience are largely equivalent, then there's really no difference between a burned copy and the real thing bought in a store.

Except that there is. An ISO image of Psychic Force 2010 doesn't have lovingly drawn and colored cleavage on the manual cover. A torrent feed of Growlanser Generations doesn't include the silver pocket watch or the soundtrack. I can have every Master System game ever produced on one CD-ROM, but that doesn't come with beautiful white and blue boxes and multilingual manuals with bad art.

But now, here comes the counter-argument... What if I don't want all that extra crap? What if I just want to put the disc in and start blowing things up? There's a fundamental disagreement between gamers and publishers about what the minimum requirement is for video game media. Hell, individual gamers disagree about what the minimum is to have something in hand called a video game. Is our hobby a big enough industry to cater to all these different tastes, and to profit from the differences?

-KKC, full of rhetoric and diet coke.

[NFG]

Kendrick makes a very good point, and asks a very good question.

I think 'the industry', as nebulous a term as that is, should ideally cater to both camps.  Offer a naked version, a download, and let me just PLAY it if I want to, and then offer a deluxe version as well, with a real box, real media, and maybe a poster/figure/art book/dildo to make it extra desirable.

[Endymion]

And Endymion: If I wanted a 'burned' CD I would have just downloaded the stuff and done it myself. The tangible proof of having bought something is the inlay, original artwork, extra stuff, not just giving the data some form of physicality.

It is? Even though burning a CD from tracks that you purchased digitally allows you to completely use, reuse, hell even give-away to friends as people have been doing with original tangible store-bought CDs? In other words the very "problem" with digital data that you mentioned originally, of losing your tracks if your computer dies, is eliminated here. And so is the DRM! Gone!

So now you have that "problem," in addition to the other stuff? You do know that liner notes, artwork, covers etc. are available too right? Seems most people discard it as they'd rather have more songs on their mp3 player, whether it is an iPod or something else.

[-Martin-]

I know all of you people will flame me for this.
But I believe, that is I BELIEVE, personally, not caring for law or fact or any other crap; in the following:

I believe the one man who copies a CD for a good friend and isn't exactly doing it left right and centre or for profit shouldn't be termed a criminal, as while what he is doing is legally wrong, he is doing it with the intentions of pleasing a friend.
It's not like he's evily and intentionally stopping his friend from buying the disc, and if his friend was going to buy the CD in the first place then the chances are that they'd have already bought it by now.

I also believe that shit like DRM that stops you from using music in home movie software is dumb as hell, I'm not paying fucking broadcast creation rights to stick a tune in a video of my little brother.

I also believe that lending and borrowing should be legalised. But hey, that makes me a hardened pirate, although I doubt SEGA give a shit if I lent my friend my copy of the Sega Saturn version of OutRun.

SEGA of America kind of wink to the notion, they have a STICKIED topic on their official forums that links to Sega music MP3 sites (which are still copyrighted material by Sega remember).

Remember that copyright doesn't just encompase exact duplicates, but also encompases uncanny similarities. So technically that means that anyone who's ever done a homebrew game based on a ga,e already in existance, is also liable for copyright theft.

The law is too far widespread and I think it needs a slight trimming and more clarification (as it differs from country to country, which makes monitoring of international copyright harder than you'd think)

[Endymion]

Man, there was a time not so long ago that I didn't mind pirates, piracy, possibly even pirating myself, but I just had an AIM conversation with the most idiotic pirate ever. It seems after the Xploder HDTV player becoming available and my being an early adopter, everyone over at ps2-scene seems to think that I owe them an iso or the elf for the boot loader from my disc. And I don't know any of these fuckwits.

All I was asked was "hmmmm someone told me you where releasing an iso of Xploder HDTV Player," of which I said no such thing, in other words the very remark, the wink wink nudge nudge "I'm not asking you to give me the iso but just give me the iso" attitude was funny as all hell at that instant. The moment I refused? It's because I'm American and ergo uncooperative, don't contribute, leech information from everyone else, and possibly responsible for a bad television season. Good lord.

I'd post an IM transcript but the mental beating this kid took is brutal to see looking back. I am seriously considering going through my back catalogue of software and seeking authors to recompense for anything I may have ever pirated, all thanks to this yokel. The gall!

[NFG]

Hahaha, good story.

[kendrick]

Cursed as I am with the ability to see both sides of an argument, I understand that moron's point of view even as I disagree with it. The committed, rationalized software pirate always believes that something for free is better than something at cost. Consumers and gamers are therefore, in their view, a community upon themselves who take care of each other. And again in their view, those who pay for software are simply not part of that enlightened club.

It's the open-source philosophy twisted around to a bitter end, and with complete disregard for the people who work in the software industry. I do agree with one of their bizarre principles though, in that software piracy appears to hurt the large companies more than it hurts individual programmers, artists or designers. More and more the game industry is acting like the music industry, in that the large corporate entity is reaping all the benefits and the people who actually make the product are left to fend for themselves. In this strange world, the act of selling and distributing the game is assigned more value than actually making the game. Never mind that the one isn't possible unless the other thing happens first.

-KKC, who doesn't buy used games anymore, but not because reselling hurts publishers. It's because Americans can't own two pieces of disk media without losing one and cracking the other in half.

[Endymion]

Hey Kendrick? Do you see the twisted bent of his p.o.v. too, though?

I am a member of a few forums he is a member of also.

Ergo, in his mind, I was/am obligated to give him a copy!

And to think I held up ps2-scene.org as an example of a great forum, even here.

Let's say I helped you out with hardware issues you were having here over a period of time then just showed up in your IM box one day asking for ROMs. I'm telling you that is exactly the slant this guy had on the whole situation. I didn't know him, he didn't help me with information ever at any time that I know of, he'd just seen me post there (and here), and when I refused to heed the Call of Juarez (also an actual video game name, ay ay ay) he asked and I quote, "are you one of those who lurks and takes information, or one who contributes?" He was literally comparing my reading the forums with forking over a disc I'd shelled out fifty bucks for.

ps2-scene has been invaluable for information in general but not thanks to his ilk who post links to their own faqs and walkthroughs, incomplete, in broken English, with missing images and vast bits of instructions that assume knowledge or simply outright omit several steps. So I didn't at all feel sorry for him. I'm a better contributor at better forums, like this one, ars technica (where I subscribe to the tune of $50 a year, not contribute?), xlr8yourmac.com, insidemacgames.com, strangedogs.com (video card flashing forum), and shacknews.com--but no matter how much "help" I get from a forum, it's not going to make me feel justified opening up the floodgates of Juarez to that sort. Make no mistake, this dude felt he was owed something, and not by way of the software company, by yours truly.

[kendrick]

Yeah, I see exactly where point A and point B are in this guy's mind. There's absolutely no way you can connect one to the other. It's the kind of thinking that makes people believe the moon landing didn't occur, or that the milk sold in stores is diluted chalk paste and not extracted from a cow.

It reminds me a little of people here at GamesX who show up demanding full on schematics and step-by-step instructions, and then expect to be able to get free parts and a back massage as well. For a lot of people, free exchange of ideas leads illogically to entitlement.

-KKC, who didn't have enough for breakfast.