360 Controller mod

[eastx]

I'm interested in converting Sega Saturn or regular Xbox pads to work on the Xbox 360.... Can anyone offer advice or technical information please?

[kendrick]

Please see Lawrence's gamepad primer on the front page at this link:

http://www.gamesx.com/misctech/controltech.htm

Any pad can be converted to work on any other console as long as you have a donor encoder and are willing to wire up buttons and analog output directly. You might have heard about the use of Saturn pads on the Xbox 360 through Hackaday or Joystiq, so here's the source link for that:

http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?sho...1&#entry3546461

-KKC, watching old Muppet Show reruns...

[eastx]

Thanks for the response! Well, his work is certainly inspirational.

I don't know that much about electronics - I want to take some electrical enginerring classes, but I don't have a ride to the nearest school that teaches them (30 minutes away).

Anyway, instead of that analog switch business, I was hoping to just connect wires to the 360 controller circuit board like they did with the SF Arcade Stick conversion:

http://gamersreports.com/article/24/1/

Is there any reason that wouldn't work?

Then, I would connect those wires to two 74153 chips as described here: http://www.gamesx.com/controldata/saturn.htm ... And wire the chips to a Saturn pad extension cable for the jack. Provided I could fit the wires into the existing 360 controller, I could use that as the project box, and make use of its Guide button and headset jack, right?

[eastx]

No luck with those questions, huh?

Here's a new one. If anyone could answer soon (as I want to finish this in a few days), it would be greatly appreciated.

I am performing a variation of this mod:

http://gamersreports.com/article/24/1/

converting an original Xbox SF 2 stick to work with the 360. The change I've made is I'm not losing the original Xbox/PS2 functionality - each button and the joystick is wired to the original stick's board as well as an Xbox 360 controller board.

My question is regarding the ground wires. The original stick's ground wires were all daisy chained together. The 360 mod linked above suggests soldering an individual wire to each ground point on the 360 controller board. I'm wondering if it's allowable for me to daisy chain all the ground wires for the 360 controller board... You know, like the original stick's ground wires were done. They'd still be connected to each button and joystick direction and soldered to each ground point on the 360 controller board, but all daisy chained together. Why? Don't ask.
But if all the ground wires are connected, will that keep it from working? I hope not.

[viletim!]

You're basicaly hooking up two controllers with all their buttons in parallel with each other??
I doesn't sound like a really good idea and will only work if the two controller are electrically simillar and share a common ground. Some things to think about
--Do the controllers have a ground (one side of each button are all connected to the same point) or is there a matrix (no good)?
--if there is a common ground, is it actualy ground or just some wierd voltage potiential. measure resistance between controller ground and a known ground (like the A/V connectors).
--do the controller chips share a common supply voltage? If one's 3.3v and another's 5v then one's going to snuff it.

[eastx]

Thanks for the quick response, Viletim. You should register, yo.

Yes, I am hooking the boards of 2 controllers in parallel with each other. I'm hoping they're electrically similar - after all, the connections to the buttons and stuff can be used with either controller board, though I know that's not definitive.

Forgive me for being so uneducated on this subject, but I hope to learn everything I need to know as quickly as possible.

-To find out if the controllers share a common supply voltage, can I use a multimeter? I've got one, though I don't know how to actually test for that. Lemme know.

-You asked if there was a grounding matrix. What's that mean? Yes, the original controller (Xbox/PS2) uses 2 common grounds (as in, all the wires are daisy-chained to 2 common points, one for the joystick and start/select, and the other for the 8 action buttons). The Xbox 360 controller has individual ground points for each button, rather than daisy chaining them all to common points. How bad is that? A friend of mine suggested using a DPDT toggle switch to turn on and off the daisy chained ground wires.

-Can any of this actually damage the components if they're incompatible, or will they just not work? I'm using quick disconnects for all the buttons, so it's easy to modify the wiring, besides wasting crimped disconnects.

[kendrick]

The parallel button connection will cause some power to run through the completed circuit to the other controller board. That means whichever side you have connected, you'll end up running current through an unpowered encoder chip on the other side. You may also discover that some encoder inputs default to a closed state when not powered, which means that those buttons will look continuously pressed in to the active encoder.

You can't double up the buttopns the way you want to with a predicatble result. Either you have to install double-pole buttons that complete two separate circuits, or you have to run two sets of wires through a double-pole switch that will completely separate one set of wires from the other.

Oh yes, a common ground is fine as long as it's only one controller board. Connecting ground between the two controller boards might not be acceptable because you don't really know that it's ground relative to both consoles (as opposed to just a voltage differential).

-KKC, doing fun things with Sony Eye Toy cameras...

[eastx]

Kendrick that sounds like good advice. I've got one DPDT switch already, but wouldn't I need a large # of them to handle all the wires I want to toggle?

I've got 10 buttons and four joystick directions, each one needing a + and - wire... A lot of switches? Can you recommend a single switch or what variety of switch I should look for at Radio Shack?

Err, wait. I ran that by a friend and he thinks I only need the DPDT switch to toggle between the 2 sets of grounds. He thinks without connected ground wires, the supply wires won't do anything at all. Is that right? If so, I can just daisy chain them all together as I would have done anyway, and I already have a Radio Shack DPDT Cat. No. 275-691A that I could use. I also have an SPDT switch (which uses only 2 wires, I think) that I could also use if it actually helped.

[viletim!]

Kendrick makes a good point, the active conntroller will power the unsed one through it's button inputs and possibly damage it. You can't get around this by simply switching off the ground because if you have one pressed button (at ground potiential) and some unpressed ones (possibly at supply voltage) then this may still power the other controller.

First make sure each controller has a common ground for it's buttons/controls. Don't assume this, or guess by looking, use your multimeter in resistance or continuity mode make sure one side of each button goes to some common point. The way you describe sounds to me like this isn't the case (bad news!) but theses boards bay have multiple layers that you can't see.

I think only sane (and non destructive) way to do this is by switching all your controls between the two controller circuits. It's not as bad as it seems - you can use 6 pole rotary switches. Two or three of these should be all you need. Make sure you switch the grounds two, if they are all common then they only need one switch. If they are not common then you will need more switches...

[eastx]

Well, I found someone who's very helpful at another message board, so I have most of the info I will be needing at this point. However, it's still not a walk in the park. According to RDC at xbox-scene.com's forums, I need 7 5v 4PDT relays (or switches) in order to do all the switching, and they cost about $5 each. I'll have to mount them on a board too. With shipping, that gets expensive!

The relays I'll probably buy:

http://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail...tualkey65300000

The thread I got this info from:
http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?sho...ic=544142&st=15

If anyone would like to suggest an easier or less expensive method (with specific parts and thorough explanation of details), please feel free to do so.

Thanks!

-Paul

[viletim!]

I think you've come up with the most expensive and complicated way to do it. I hope you don't plan to power all those relays from the xbox controller ports.

It really would help you to find out if your controller  have a 'ground'...If they do, and they proably do then it will save you a lot of wire, switches and time.

If you are dead set on having the switching done electronicaly then look into a cmos IC called the 4066 (MC14066, CD4066, etc) for your purposes it's basicaly the solid state version of those relays you mention. They're about an order of magnitude cheaper too!

If you'd like to the switching mechanicaly then you can buy a 2 to 1 PC parallel port switchbox. Rip it apart and you'll find a huge ~30PDT rotary switch. Parallel ports are out of fashion now so it should be cheap....maybe you can find one for free.

[viletim!]

not 4066...that's the SPST type...I meant to say 4053....

[Guest]

Well, if you're right about this, that'd be awfully nice! Yeah, I would think switches would come with the ability to do more than 4 wires - ripping up an existing switchbox seems logical. That automatic solution might be better, but it sounds like I may need a lot of instruction for it as well.

Apparently the 360 pad uses a unique ground scheme that's more like keyboards than most controllers... Check this diagram out:



And the traces on the pad:



I have a hard time understanding that diagram, but the creator suggests that wiring to individual ground points on the 360 pad's board is a bad idea. He said this about it:

The way you're describing the button layout is more like a common ground setup, 1 wire for each button, then the other side of the button is ground. The 360 controller board is WAY different than this, for example.

The D-pad Up, D-pad Down and Right Bumper buttons all have a "common" wire. Then each of them has it's own second wire that makes up the other part, those 3 wires can then each be connected to 1 more wire and you get 3 more buttons. That's 6 buttons out of 5 wires, something that can't be done with a common ground setup, since you always need 1 wire for the ground, a 5 wire setup will only get you 4 buttons. It's sort of a mess to understand it, but it's nothing at all like a common ground setup,even though some buttons do share a common connection.

You can do all of the soldering on the top of the board if you want to, but using both the top and bottom would make some points easier to hit, that's sorta up to you.

What do you make of all that?

[eastx]

Argh, I forgot to sign in before I posted that message. Well, let me know what you think, anyway. The more you reply, the more discussion I can get going at xbox-scene, so that's helpful.

[viletim!]

Ah, yes. It's a typical "matrix + diodes" setup. Looks like a nightmare to solder to aswell.

Have you checked your xbox arcade stick? That uses a common ground setup right? Maybe there's a better alternative to switching a shitload of wires around.... A better idea is to take the signals that are already available and use them to control some cmos switches that will manipulate the 360 pad's buttons. Here's an ascii...

Code Select Expand

.             +supply
.             |  voltage
.             R                     1/4  +--------+              
.  -----\     R                     4066 |        |              
.       |     R                      /---|---\    |     |        
. xbox  |     |               |\     |   o   |    |     |
. fight |-----+  <------------| >----|--> \  |    +---> |      
. stick |     |               |/     |   o   |          o      
. chip        o             1/6      \---|---/           \  xbox
.              \ button     4049         |              o   360
.             o                          +------------> |   button
.             |                                         |
.            ---GND

That's the way I'd go about doing it. You understand basic logic? Basicaly you've got a signal from a button on the fighter stick -- 1 (~5v, assuming a 5v supply voltage) when idle, 0 (~0v) when pressed. The 4049 is a logic inverter making the signal a 1 when the button is pressed. When there's a 1 on the 4066's control input then the switch closes, when there's a 0 it's open circuit.

For this to work both the fighter pad, the 360 pad and the logic stuff must be powered together. Should not be a problem if they share the same supply voltage.

The advantage of this setup is that there is no switching at all, both controller outputs will function at the same time. Maybe a bit too complex for you....?

[eastx]

Sorry I couldn't get online yesterday - it was my GF's day off and we also had digital cable and premium Roadrunner installed, taking up all my time.

Yes, the arcade stick uses a common ground setup. Provided you and the other people helping me tell me exactly what to do and what parts to buy, nothing's too complicated for me. However, if I need a chip programmer or some other expensive apparatus, then I can't handle it. What cost are we looking at for the chip and the board or whatever it'll have to be situated on?

At the Xbox Scene board http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=544142&st=0 your suggestion got some more discussion going, and one of the two knowledgeable chaps definitely agrees with you. Rather than posting all their replies here, it would be easier if you would join that thread or read it and respond here. Lemme know!  B)  

[viletim]

The RDC guy on the other forum sais that both xboxed have +5v coming from the controller ports so power shouldn't be much of an issue. If you are only going to have this device plugged into one console at a time the you can just connect all the power lines together. If you'll have this thing plugged into two consoles at once then you'll need to use some schottky (they have a lower forward voltage drop than normal silicon) diodes.

Code Select Expand

.xbox +5v ------>|----+----------+----------+-------|<-----xbox360 +5v
.                     |          |          |
.                     |          |          |
.                   fighter      |        360 pad
.                   stick        |vdd       |
.                     |       cmos          |
.                     |        logic        |
.                     |          |vss       |
.                     |          |          |
. xbox ground --------+----------+----------+--------------xbox360 ground


The parts are very common - every decent electronics shop will stock the cmos 4000 series logic chips. These ones are pretty cheap, about AU$0.70ea for the 4049 and 4066's localy. Add another AU$5 for a chuck of prototype board. You don't really need a PC board for this type of stuff...you can just stick all the chips on a piece of cardboard/plastic with their legs in the air (dead bug style) and solder wires between the legs. For the wire - get a roll of wire wrap wire. You'll need it for soldering to the fine points of the 360 pad.

That's about all I can think of really....I don't want to get too involved, it is your project after all.

[viletim]

btw If you don't understand any of this then you might be better off with the 'millions of switchs' approach. I don't mean to discourage you, just don't want your preject to end in disaster.

[eastx]

Welcome to Registration Land, dude!

RDC said, "I think that using 4066 and 4049 ICs deal might work out pretty good, as long as the Sticks guts are setup in the common ground setup like most are.

I've been messing around with how I'd lay out the ICs and you'd need 4 of each to do it the easiest way. Ya end up with a few left over Inverter circuits, but that's no big deal, and ya have the ability to do 16 buttons in total with 4 of each."

He even offered to solder the chips and stuff for me, bless his heart. I'll do them myself though... Your instructions are pretty good, so I shouldn't have to do much additional research. As one of my earlier posts said, I really do want to get into electrical engineering; I just can't take any college classes on the subject for at least a year. I want to do all the hands on work myself as I plan to turn all this into a guide... Doing the job in the most efficient, affordable way makes for a much better guide, too. The guide will be hosted permanently on a reputable site, and of course you and RDC will receive major thanks for your contributions. You saved me like $30 US dollars, you saint! That's gotta be a million or so in Australlian, hee hee.

[eastx]

Here's a reply to your diagram. Sounds like we need to change it slightly...

I'd still stuff the ICs in a prototype board to wire everything up, no point in going ghetto on the install once you've gone to all this trouble to get it working in the first place.

The way that's wired there is based on having the Arcade Stick plugged into BOTH consoles and having them BOTH on at the same time. With it wired like that the Arcade stick board gets no power if the XBOX is off, so the whole circuit you're building wouldn't have any "input" to know what's going on to tell 360 board what to do.

The 360 still puts out 5v even when it's off, the XBOX doesn't, so you need to make sure you have the power wired up correctly. If you're FOR SURE only going to have it plugged into one console at a time then the Diode really isn't necessary and the power lines can be toed together, though I wouldn't do it that way. Even if you're gonna have this thing plugged into both consoles at the same time you still only need 1 Diode to pull it off. There's no point in having it setup so the circuit you're building runs off the 5v from the XBOX part of it when it wont be used at all if you're only playing it on the XBOX. It does need power when you plug in the 360 cord though as does the board in the Arcade Stick.

Unless you're gonna make sure the XBOX cord is plugged in and the XBOX is on every time you want to play a 360 game you need to wire it up different from that diagram. You'll need to be going from the 360 controllers boards 5v, to the circuit you're building to power it, then thru the Diode to the 5v spot on the Arcade stick to power it. If you have the XBOX cord plugged in and the power on, the Diode will stop that 5v from getting back on the 5v from the 360, if you left everything plugged up. When you're using just the 360 cord, it powers the whole mess and you don't need the XBOX cord plugged up and powered on to use just the 360 part of it.

I'm sooo hoping I can get the parts in Houston on Monday and finish this sucker up!

[viletim!]

The way that's wired there is based on having the Arcade Stick plugged into BOTH consoles and having them BOTH on at the same time. With it wired like that the Arcade stick board gets no power if the XBOX is off, so the whole circuit you're building wouldn't have any "input" to know what's going on to tell 360 board what to do.

That's incorrect! The controller circuits will still have power if one console is off. If they are both on the console with the higher +5v line or the lowest Vf diode will supply all the current and the other will supply none.

[eastx]

Ah ha... Well, please check out RDC's awesome diagrams and see if they will work.

http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?sho...ic=544142&st=30

I picked up a PC board, and will be picking up new wires and the IC chips on Monday, most likely.