What in RGB's Name Do I Do?!

[Raskolnikov]

I'm trying to figure out what RGB cables I need for each of my consoles to use with my TV (as I don't want to get an old computer monitor when I have a nice HDTV in my room). I had originally thought the way to do this was with SCART alone, but now I'm considering new options. My goal was: RGB-ready console = SCART cable --> SCART switch --> RGB-to-component YUV converter with SCART input --> my TV's component inputs. This will be quite expensive, and maybe not even worthwhile/work.

NeoGeoMan says he uses a "custom cable" for all his "machines, consoles, and arcade." He also says you can get this at "any electronics store." That's all. No other information is provided, and I'd have no idea what to look for, and what to do with it.

I have a TV with:

2 composite inputs
2 component inputs
1 S-video input

What methods to achieve RGB are available to me for playing these consoles?

SNES
N64 (after mod)
Sega Genesis
Sega Saturn
Sega Dreamcast

I live in the U.S.A.

[Blaine]

If you ask me, the people who write for this site don't really seem the least bit interested in helping anyone, as crucial, elementary info will be entirely omitted most of the time. Anyone who has no idea what the hell any of this video stuff means won't know what to do at all! This site is set up horribly to explain things to the layman.

1) You're not wrong.
2) The fact that you're not wrong might mean you're missing the point.

As a general rule, the Gamesx network of sites is always on the extreme high end of the technology curve. You come here not because you want to know how a controller works, but because you want to know what chips go into a Sega Saturn controller.

The info on this site is pretty much designed for someone intimately knowledgable. Trust me, I sympathize. I've been on these boards for a long time, I actually have privileges to create blog entries on nfg, I've learned so much but I know maybe 1/10th of what I should. Even when dealing with the extreme, you will pick up on the mundane. You just have to be patient and understanding.

That said.

I have a TV with:

2 composite inputs
2 component inputs
1 S-video input

What methods to achieve RGB are available to me for playing these consoles?

SNES
N64 (after mod)
Sega Genesis
Sega Saturn
Sega Dreamcast

I live in the U.S.A.

Based on that tv? You have no options. Your tv does not support any RGB signal it seems. The closest you have is component, which is as close as you'll get. Even though the plugs are red, green and blue they're not actually carring a r/g/b signal. It's actually closer to a super s-video. S-video has two video wires, yeah? An s-video connector has 4 little pins inside, but two of them are just ground wires. The other two are Luma (Luminance - which is to say how bright the image is. It's basically black and white) and Chroma (Chrominance - which is to say how the color is). By keeping those two signals separate you get less interference and get a better picture. It's the rule of thumb for game consoles.

More wires means less interference means better video.

Component still has the Luminance (b/w signal) but now has the color carried on two separate lines. One line is a mathematical structure for blue (it's actually the difference, mathematical difference, between blue and the luminance.) This is why component video is often called Difference or Blue Difference. The second line is the difference between red and luminance.

A green signal isn't actually sent. Instead you can algebraically figure out what green is from the red, blue and luma.

All pixels add up to 255,255,255 (r,g,b) for pure white. If you know the luminance of a pixel is white (255) and you know red is 255 and blue is 255 then green must also be 255. Maybe even clearer. If you know a pixel is halfway between totally bright and totally dark (128) and you know that red is 64, blue is 18 then you know that green must be 46 (64+18+46=128 / r+b+g=luma).

Okay, now for what RGB is, is you're always carrying all three signals plus the necessary information to tell the tv/monitor how fast the signal is being refreshed (the sync rate - with a horizontal sync and a vertical sync, or a composite sync of both... sometimes the sync signal is carried on the green signal as well. Known as Sync on Green).

So you're looking at 5 wires RGBHV (Red, Green, Blue, Horizontal, Vertical). Anything that uses these 5 signals or equivalent is what you'd term "RGB". A SCART cable, a VGA/SVGA/XGA/etc cable, HDMI, DVI all carry the individual signals in some way shape or form.

Now if your tv supports a SCART (which, being in the US it won't because all our lives would be easier) or "VGA" (one of those 15 pin d-sub) connections - then you can get RGB. Otherwise you're just playing it as close as possible.

Now, Component is your closes bet. Probably your best way for all of those systems is one of the two following options (prepare yourself, none are cheap).

1) A SCART to Component converter (which you touched upon). It'll run anywhere from $70 and up. You can, if you so desire, build one yourself using a JROK video converter board but I wouldn't recommend it. You'll save, maybe, $20 building one yourself. You'll also need SCART cables for all the systems (The SNES and up should use a common cable). Not only that but you gotta make sure you get the RIGHT SCART cable as there is Euro Scart and J Scart, and depending on where you get that converter from... you'll have to get the right cable, or rewire the cable to match your converter.

2) Get another TV. Not being a dick, get a smaller one that you can use for gaming only. I have a Samsung sync master computer monitor that I play all my games on. You'll then probably need to get an upscan converter like an XRGB, so this is a good $600 solution.

[Endymion]

To Raskolnikov, or any other newbies: it's a shame you only came by here just recently!

NFG Games, and Atari Labs before it, and GamesX before that, have always been Lawrences personal journal of sorts, sharing information as he has learned it himself. This comes from a time when televisions were not in "high definition," when it was not possible to mistake RGB for component, and when a lot of the information that has been detailed here through the years, some of it lost (at least in its original form) and much of it preserved, just did not exist anywhere else. It might seem difficult to keep up, but technology has moved forward in the last decade. Standards have changed and new consoles have come around, televisions offer more options, and some of them make even the goal that the hardcore gaming tech fan sought after (RGB), well, just a bit redundant. It still has its use, and the consoles that have it still exist of course, but as new consumer TVs have offered VGA, component, DVI, HDMI and all sorts of other image-conscious features to work with, the venerable old RGB has fallen by the wayside. Nobody here is hoarding information or trying to obfuscate it from you, but something like the person who walked in the room at the end of the conversation, you're asking questions that are not very helpful to yourself, no matter how relevant it may appear from the tip of the iceberg that you've seen.

Blaine covered it pretty well--from what you've told us, your HDTV has no RGB input at all. Because of this, you will need to resort to both some handiwork as well as some expensive equipment to use this input with your set. You could always buy another set, and believe it or not there are American sets sold in the USA that, if not perfect for the application of RGB, at least make what you are trying to do a lot easier.

There's a lot to cover just with the "simple" stuff you are trying to do with the consoles that you listed, really more than any one post here could write up in a single entry, otherwise I would be writing an epic length novel, but at this point I think that you probably need to read more of what is available here, this includes reading the older topics in the forum that deal with the consoles you are interested in, as well as studying the wiki as if it were the Constitution. Once you have a better grasp on the basics, you can start to ask relevant questions, the kind that will tell you what you need to know to get your hands dirty and get specific results. It might sound like we're being terse with you but that's really not the case, almost everything you need to know is here if you will take the time to look at it.

[NFG]

If you ask me, the people who write for this site don't really seem the least bit interested in helping anyone, as crucial, elementary info will be entirely omitted most of the time. Anyone who has no idea what the hell any of this video stuff means won't know what to do at all! This site is set up horribly to explain things to the layman.

This REALLY pisses me off.  GameSX is 11 years old now, and has more tech info, thanks to many contributors, than any other game site, and you think I'm not interested in helping people?  Fuck you.  <gets a grip, and carries on>

It is not as helpful to make a specific, all-details-included page that does ONE thing: instead I've provided all the info you need to make ANYTHING by providing the basics.  It's your job to put them together to fit your specific purposes, not mine.

Put another way, all I've ever wanted for GameSX is a place for raw theory, pinouts and other data.  You can use this to make anything you want, but it is NOT the place for complete mods and E-Z-Build kits.  Complaining you can't find what you want here is like complaining the grocery store is not serving fresh hamburgers: it's a place for raw materials, your own misconceptions do not make the place less useful for those who understand what it IS for.

Finally, to really belabour the point: If you come here, get the raw goods, and build something, you've actually DONE SOMETHING.  You've created something yourself.  Following instructions to do one task, and one task only, is EASY, and that's a job for other sites - many of which use the raw data from THIS site, so I guess there's a place for GameSX after all.

NeoGeoMan says he uses a "custom cable" for all his "machines, consoles, and arcade." He also says you can get this at "any electronics store." That's all. No other information is provided, and I'd have no idea what to look for, and what to do with it.

Yeah, a custom cable which I designed and made for my own purposes.  How would it help you to have MY equipment for YOUR needs?  Here's a helpful hint: it WON'T.  

Hrm, it seems Blaine and Endymion are much better at replying to this sort of thing than I am.  Yay, I'm my own worst enemy.  =D

Thanks guys.

[ken_cinder]

May I add, that it is entirely possible to use the VGA port on many NTSC HDTVs for RGB in 15khz mode. ie, an arcade board.....or any standard def console.

BOTH my HDTVs can do this, so you may want to look into wiring up a VGA cable. Forget about component inputs without some expensive converter, or lots of work on your part.

[Endymion]

If he's told us all the inputs his HDTV has, his set does not have a D-Sub connector for VGA however. I've also found, after working with a lot of HDTVs, that sets which can handle 15KHz RGB as well as 31KHz VGA level over the D-Sub, like yours, are rather uncommon. They may not be rare per se, but they are definitely the exception and not the rule; both of my HDTV sets do this also, but then they also accept 15 or 31KHz RGB via the component BNC jacks and do a gaggle of features that I made sure of before I dropped the extra dough on. As with the olden days, finding the right screen to work with goes a long way here.

[RGB32E]

I've also found, after working with a lot of HDTVs, that sets which can handle 15KHz RGB as well as 31KHz VGA level over the D-Sub, like yours, are rather uncommon.

So, the main HDTV panels that support 15kHz RGB in the US are Panasonic plasmas?
Consumer models:
-Use PC input (w/sync separator to supply H&V syncs as CSYNC not supported)
-Use PC input (put CSYNC on Green video)

Commercial models:
-Use PC input (Set sync mode for PC input to VBS or SoG in monitor settings)
-Use component/RGB input board (Put CSYNC on green for component input  and set to RGB mode)

Is this the consensus? (Sorry for the divergence) 

[Blaine]

I've also found, after working with a lot of HDTVs, that sets which can handle 15KHz RGB as well as 31KHz VGA level over the D-Sub, like yours, are rather uncommon.

So, the main HDTV panels that support 15kHz RGB in the US are Panasonic plasmas?
Consumer models:
-Use PC input (w/sync separator to supply H&V syncs as CSYNC not supported)
-Use PC input (put CSYNC on Green video)

Commercial models:
-Use PC input (Set sync mode for PC input to VBS or SoG in monitor settings)
-Use component/RGB input board (Put CSYNC on green for component input  and set to RGB mode)

Is this the consensus? (Sorry for the divergence) 

If you guys have some good info on this, could be an excellent wiki entry. I'll be getting a new tv soon, I'd love to get one that supports 15khz (I always thought it was 15hz... I'll never learn).

[RGB32E]

If you guys have some good info on this, could be an excellent wiki entry. I'll be getting a new tv soon, I'd love to get one that supports 15khz (I always thought it was 15hz... I'll never learn).

Well, if you don't have any problems with plasma tech that would prohibit you from purchasing , the Panasonic TH-50PF11UK (1080p) should be out soon.  The 11 series 50" 768p commercial plasma that just came out (TH-50PH11UK) goes for about $1,250...

[cgm]

So, the main HDTV panels that support 15kHz RGB in the US are Panasonic plasmas?
Consumer models:
-Use PC input (w/sync separator to supply H&V syncs as CSYNC not supported)
-Use PC input (put CSYNC on Green video)

Was this ever confirmed to work? If so, then I might consider the consumer TH-42PZ85U/800U models, otherwise I'm waiting for the pro series TH-42PF11UK 1080p set to come out.

[Endymion]

If you guys have some good info on this, could be an excellent wiki entry. I'll be getting a new tv soon, I'd love to get one that supports 15khz (I always thought it was 15hz... I'll never learn).

Well I was only going by what you had to say, not disputing what you had to say--does your set support 15KHz over that input? I have no way of knowing, the manual ought to tell you though?

So, the main HDTV panels that support 15kHz RGB in the US are Panasonic plasmas?

I can only speak for the Panasonics as I have used them. Other professional brand HDTVs might do things, in fact if they market them to studios I would probably expect it, but I just couldn't tell you which they are or what to look for. Not trying to spam up the thread, most of you guys know I love Panasonic by now.

I have a couple of Samsung 940MW (19 inch widescreen) computer monitor which actually has SCART on it, in fact I'm using it now but not with a game console. I've also owned a Samsung 242MP (24 inch widescreen) and it had SCART as well. These work exactly as you would expect them to and the SCART image looks great, although the 242MP has a problem with its backlight (it just turns itself off) I may look into getting this fixed just because it's a huge, nice screen. I have no idea if those two screens operate with 15KHz via other inputs (DVI or VGA), however as the socket is simple SCART, you don't really need it. They also have component input as well as composite and S-video. I like them a lot hence I still use them even if mostly as computer screens, unfortunately both are discontinued. If they get some feedback about them I don't think it's impossible that Samsung might produce another SCART equipped model later.

[Blaine]

...does your set support 15KHz over that input? I have no way of knowing, the manual ought to tell you though?

No. I wish, I convert all my signals. That's part of the reason I was so intrigued at a tv that accepts 15khz analog rgb. It'd be like living in Europe! "Would you like a spot of tea? Let's hook up this JAMMA board to our SCART enabled telly! That Sub Zero is right good crack." ...aah.

[cgm]

I have a couple of Samsung 940MW (19 inch widescreen) computer monitor which actually has SCART on it, in fact I'm using it now but not with a game console. I've also owned a Samsung 242MP (24 inch widescreen) and it had SCART as well. These work exactly as you would expect them to and the SCART image looks great, although the 242MP has a problem with its backlight (it just turns itself off) I may look into getting this fixed just because it's a huge, nice screen. I have no idea if those two screens operate with 15KHz via other inputs (DVI or VGA), however as the socket is simple SCART, you don't really need it. They also have component input as well as composite and S-video. I like them a lot hence I still use them even if mostly as computer screens, unfortunately both are discontinued. If they get some feedback about them I don't think it's impossible that Samsung might produce another SCART equipped model later.

My Samsung 930MP (basically a 19" 4:3 version of your 940MW) doesn't accept 15.75khz RGB via its VGA port, only SCART.

[Link83]

No. I wish, I convert all my signals. That's part of the reason I was so intrigued at a tv that accepts 15khz analog rgb. It'd be like living in Europe! "Would you like a spot of tea? Let's hook up this JAMMA board to our SCART enabled telly! That Sub Zero is right good crack." ...aah.

lol, I love they way alot of people in the US have a stereotypical image of British/European people sitting sipping tea all day

We are lucky in that we have RGB Scart connectors as standard, but many other things about the history of European gaming is quite depressing.

Most games are/were released over here much later than in the US, or sometimes not at all (eg SNES Super Mario RPG).

Then we have the horrible conversions to deal with aswell, with huge black borders and 50hz gameplay as standard. Just take a look at this video to see what we had to put up with 'back in the day':-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1CW8Da8i1o

Then there were alot of companies who 'price fixed' games. Nintendo 64 games cost £60.00 each when they were first released ($120) Nintendo was even fined millions for price fixing in Europe.

Then there is the editing that is done to many games to fit in with European Guidelines.

Its getting much better now of course    but still certain companies *cough* Nintendo *cough* insist on late releases, region locking and 50hz versions of retro games

[Blaine]

ha ha. I was just being facetious, of course.

I'm still impressed at the number of euro gamers who haven't just said 'to hell with pal' and just got an ntsc console. I mean, you really lose a lot of convenience of being able to impulse buy from a shop (or pick something up cheap on sale). It does present a wealth a problems and limits you to a strictly import gamer but... I don't know. Strong pound/euro to the dollar makes for mighty cheap games, even with overseas shipping. Not getting humped on release dates. I woulda cracked a long time ago.

As for my views of the British. I'm sure I speak for a segment of the population, maybe not a big one - maybe not a small one, but, I want the English to be my cultured, intelligent and perhaps a little stuffy cousin. I want my step brothers, the Australians, to be easy going partiers with not a care in the world. You guys are seriously my family on this world. I want some balance, y'know?

I need you guys to be my Mr. Belvedere. I need the Aussies to be my Crocodile Dundee.

I sure hope that Mr. Belvedere name drop was known.

Anyways, it's why I love movies like Layer Cake, This Is England and Lock Stock Two Smoking Barrels! Evil British thuggary is just an awesome deviation from the expected. So I don't mind when they stray from my caricature, in fact I kinda like it. I accept them no matter what. I just like to have the caricature.

Now let's all go visit the Russians with their crazy snow vodka, switch blades, and yankee blue jeans!

[ken_cinder]

Panasonic Plasma.........wouldn't fork out the money for a plasma, nor would I put my money on a technology that is inherently flawed at inception. But enough about that.

My 1st is a 32" Acer AT3220A, LCD. Second is a 32" Samsung LCD, I can't recall what model. Both were something like $800, both support 15khz RGB over VGA.
Both have a service menu I can access where I have quite a bit of control over things, including frequency timings and other stuff I have no clue what they do.
You don't know until you try.......

[Raskolnikov]

After I said that thing about GameSX, I wondered if maybe people would focus too much on that, and thought about whether I should have said it. I was right, and I shouldn't have said it, but I'm not about to take it back either. For people who know very little about video, and just want to know how to get RGB, it's nauseating trying to figure everything out. Yes, Lawrence(?) was right about what he said, but it's still very frustrating how GameSX is made, and I still think more could be done to keep you from spending a year worth of studying to get the info you need.

If he's told us all the inputs his HDTV has, his set does not have a D-Sub connector for VGA however.

Well, I actually didn't tell you of all of the inputs my TV has. I consciously omitted some inputs thinking nothing could be done with them as far as RGB goes, anyway.

Besides what I've already mentioned, I also have two HDMI inputs, but unfortuneatly, no VGA input.

Well, buying a new TV is a pretty dreadful notion considering that I've spent over three months trying to search for just the right CRT HDTV I needed after spending more than a year learning about HDTV when I decided a couple of years ago that I needed one. After all that time I finally landed enough money to get one last February, so I really don't think I'm going to go through that all over again.

I had no idea that component wasn't considered RGB. I also thought component was as good as RGB, but I guess if it was, there wouldn't be any tutorials for trying to get RGB out of systems that come with component (Wii).

So, HDMI doesn't help?

Hey! Just to give some credit where credit is due (calm down NeoGeoMan) I just now seen the updated Saturn mod for importing games, and I think I could do that. That looks exactly like what I was thinking of when I said some things could be written better to give ignoramus's like me a better grasp on what I need to do. I'm particularly happy that it's for playing imported Saturn games, because that's exactly something else I want to do after my harrowing RGB quest is resolved, if ever.

[Endymion]

Panasonic Plasma.........wouldn't fork out the money for a plasma, nor would I put my money on a technology that is inherently flawed at inception. But enough about that.

Yes definitely enough. Plasmas lose brightness over time and that's really the only flaw at this point. But then so does a CRT, it's just so gradual that you won't notice it. The life of the models I have are long enough that I'll want another television by the time it's too dim to watch anyway. (60,000 hours to half-brightness, assume 8 hours of use a day on one screen, that works out to more than 20 years--I think I would probably want to get a new HDTV easily in less than 10 even if these are still fully functional . . . but that's just me.) Burn-in is honestly a thing of the past, and the plusses are wayyyyy too many, Panasonic's models have other features that make it god in the form of a screen for these purposes.

Besides what I've already mentioned, I also have two HDMI inputs, but unfortuneatly, no VGA input.

Then, you are surely out of luck, you'll have to do other angles of attack.

I had no idea that component wasn't considered RGB. I also thought component was as good as RGB,

It is. The reason it has widespread use is because it useful to the moviemaking industry and others for locking content as it is a signal which needs to be decoded. It's not a "pure colour signal" as RGB is, however what it provides at the screen is honestly no different.

but I guess if it was, there wouldn't be any tutorials for trying to get RGB out of systems that come with component (Wii).

Actually, the reason you have people doing this is just because they want to use screens they already own which use RGB but not component. There are those who argue that one is better than the other (usually RGB) but I advise you not to get caught up in this. Use what you can where you can. With older consoles there is no built-in method to transcode, so you need to deal with RGB in some way.

So, HDMI doesn't help?

Unfortunately, no. HDMI only sends a digital colour difference signal so it's unsuitable.

You're going to have to pony up some real cash to get RGB broadcasts converted to something that can send via component. A device that does this is called a transcoder. You will also need a device that can redraw the resolution of your broadcast. This is called an upscaler or an upscan device. The XRGB, XRGB2, and XRGB2+ are all quality upscanners, XRGB3 is more recent and seems to be hard to find. I think the only difference is that it adds DVI, but I have read it also gives some lag to the image, something that the previous units had none of. So if you can get an XRGB model of some kind, that's your first step. The XRGB will take your console's RGB input and convert it to VGA levels (15 to 31KHz). At this point you'll need a transcoder. There are several, but many people have used this one from Audio Authority. It will receive your VGA signal and convert it into one that you can send to your HDTV via component cables, and you're done.

You will need to do a little prep work with these to get them going though. The XRGB uses a pin configuration made for Japanese cables. It looks identical to the SCART connector but the pins are set differently, and there are many grounds. You will either need to make absolutely certain that the RGB cable you buy for your console in question is Japanese and not European, or else you will need to make a patch cable or modify the XRGB to accept European SCART cables. It might sound like a hassle but I highly recommend you go the latter route, because finding Japanese RGB cables can be tough to do and usually way more expensive. SCART cables from Europe for RGB are easily found and very cheap, you can usually find lots of sellers at ebay uk who are fine with shipping to the USA. Your Nintendo 64 does not output RGB so you will need to tap it by soldering wires to the circuit board and attaching the other ends to the console's video port jack, once you do this it will work with the same RGB SCART cable that a SNES uses, instructions are here.

[Blaine]

There are those who argue that one is better than the other (usually RGB) but I advise you not to get caught up in this. Use what you can where you can.

Dems is fightin' werds!! It's on like Miss Saigon!!

How dare you besmirch then name of RGB!

[Raskolnikov]

In that case, I've seen what RGB can do on my TV, and I honestly don't know if it's worth it then. Playing Final Fantasy Origins on my PS2 with a component cable hooked up to my TV, I was wondering if that was approximately what it would look like playing my SNES with RGB.

I think I could probably just live with S-video! With S-video (for my SNES, at least), and my TV's display setting tinkered with, I might be just fine, and not even need to go through this expensive RGB quest just to get a little better picture! I mean -- I've already said I wasn't going to get an extra TV or computer monitor, didn't I?

You're going to have to pony up some real cash to get RGB broadcasts converted to something that can send via component. A device that does this is called a transcoder. You will also need a device that can redraw the resolution of your broadcast. This is called an upscaler or an upscan device. The XRGB, XRGB2, and XRGB2+ are all quality upscanners, XRGB3 is more recent and seems to be hard to find. I think the only difference is that it adds DVI, but I have read it also gives some lag to the image, something that the previous units had none of. So if you can get an XRGB model of some kind, that's your first step. The XRGB will take your console's RGB input and convert it to VGA levels (15 to 31KHz). At this point you'll need a transcoder. There are several, but many people have used this one from Audio Authority. It will receive your VGA signal and convert it into one that you can send to your HDTV via component cables, and you're done.

You will need to do a little prep work with these to get them going though. The XRGB uses a pin configuration made for Japanese cables. It looks identical to the SCART connector but the pins are set differently, and there are many grounds. You will either need to make absolutely certain that the RGB cable you buy for your console in question is Japanese and not European, or else you will need to make a patch cable or modify the XRGB to accept European SCART cables. It might sound like a hassle but I highly recommend you go the latter route, because finding Japanese RGB cables can be tough to do and usually way more expensive. SCART cables from Europe for RGB are easily found and very cheap, you can usually find lots of sellers at ebay uk who are fine with shipping to the USA. Your Nintendo 64 does not output RGB so you will need to tap it by soldering wires to the circuit board and attaching the other ends to the console's video port jack, once you do this it will work with the same RGB SCART cable that a SNES uses, instructions are here.

That N64 mod looks better than the one on GameSX.com 

Okay, so ... I need a device that will convert my console's RGB signal to VGA, and then one that will convert VGA to component? 

So, how is that better than what I was planning to do originally?



]



Note: the SCART switch, or even SCART cable, pictured there are not precisely the ones I plan to purchase. Only the converter, there, is the exact type of converter I am/was going to buy. The TV you see there is also the exact model of TV I have -- the Samsung TXT3093WH.

There is one problem with that set-up that I am aware of: degraded signals. I seen with my own two eyes what happens when you take a three-way console S-video cable and connect them to multiple consoles and then to your TV: a darkened, fuzzier picture. I was worried that something similar would happen if I had several old-school consoles connected to a SCART switch which is then connected to the converter. Then I read on this very forum from a poster that said SCART switches DO that very thing to pictures. I think I read that on the "RGB the EASY Way" thread.

So, if I get the right SCART cable, SCART switch, and converter (hopefully the one I want, because it's the only RGB-to-component converter that comes with sterero audio outputs that I could find), couldn't I pull that set-up off? Or do I HAVE to take the route you've offered me?

Now ... as far as my Sega Genesis 2 is concerned ... *shudders* ... I don't want to know.

[Endymion]

In that case, I've seen what RGB can do on my TV, and I honestly don't know if it's worth it then. Playing Final Fantasy Origins on my PS2 with a component cable hooked up to my TV, I was wondering if that was approximately what it would look like playing my SNES with RGB.

Well. You think you would be happy dropping down to S-video on your PS2? Not just for Final Fantasy Origins, but for everything? S-video is an excellent picture with a well made cable. But I still wouldn't want to use that just knowing that I could use component or RGB with the same screen. You've got to weigh your expense, from money, time, and effort, into what you want, then you'll know how badly you want it.

That N64 mod looks better than the one on GameSX.com 

It's pretty well the same isn't it? Apart from his mention about the pin-lifting method, which is quick and dirty, works well for some, not so hot for others.

Okay, so ... I need a device that will convert my console's RGB signal to VGA, and then one that will convert VGA to component? 

Lacking VGA input, this is well only the way you can do it with that set.

So, how is that better than what I was planning to do originally?

Well . . . it will work!

There is one problem with that set-up that I am aware of: degraded signals. I seen with my own two eyes what happens when you take a three-way console S-video cable and connect them to multiple consoles and then to your TV: a darkened, fuzzier picture.

The SCART box you linked here has buttons on the side. These are switches. The active SCART slot selected has the action of physically severing the connection to the other slots on the inside, so this shouldn't be an issue.

Now ... as far as my Sega Genesis 2 is concerned ... *shudders* ... I don't want to know.

Same thing.

[Raskolnikov]

You know, I didn't see any stereo audio cables for that VGA to component transcoder. What am I going to there

Is there not some way to use a component cable alone for a SNES, for example? There's no shortcut where I could just customize a cable and use it as a component cable?

I've tried to search for this XRGB upscaling device, and the search results for Google turned up an XRGB2 that has already been sold on eBay. I don't think I can do this.

[Link83]

I appeciate everyone's feedback very, very much. I will weigh my options, and decide. Thank you.

One last thing, however -- is there not some way to use a component cable alone for a SNES, for example? There's no shortcut where I could just customize a cable and use it as a component cable?

No im afraid not, as the SNES outputs RGB not Component signals (and as you already read, Component - although coloured Red Green and Blue - is not actually RGB, although the picture quality once decoded by your TV is pretty much the same)

Personally, I wouldnt bother buying an Scart switcher yet - just get a good quality RGB Scart cable for whichever console where RGB is most important to you, and then get the RGB Scart to Component Transcoder box, and see how that goes first. Then if you like the picture, get the Scart cables for your other consoles and a Scart switcher.

If you need advice on which ones are 'quality' scart cables I would do my best to help (Would mainly recommend official cables where possible) as living in the UK makes it easier for me to know what Scart cables are available (although you could just search eBay UK)

[Raskolnikov]

Personally, I wouldnt bother buying an Scart switcher yet - just get a good quality RGB Scart cable for whichever console where RGB is most important to you, and then get the RGB Scart to Component Transcoder box, and see how that goes first. Then if you like the picture, get the Scart cables for your other consoles and a Scart switcher.

If you need advice on which ones are 'quality' scart cables I would do my best to help (Would mainly recommend official cables where possible) as living in the UK makes it easier for me to know what Scart cables are available (although you could just search eBay UK)

I was thinking of doing that, but according to Endymion, it won't work. Maybe because my SNES, Sega Genesis, Sega Saturn, and Sega Dreamcast are all NTSC, and a SCART cable from UK wouldn't be compatible, as it being from the PAL region.

I think SCART is just a European thing, but don't the Japanese use a 21-pin AV cable that is like a SCART cable? Couldn't I just get all my necessary equipment from Japan?

Wait! I couldn't do that, could I? I heard that you need to watch out for SCART cables sold in Asia, as they will fry your console and TV!

It's all so God damn confusing.

[Link83]

You are pretty much fine to use PAL (European) RGB Scart cables for all but the SNES (As there is an NTSC/PAL difference)
RGB is RGB - this is no PAL or NTSC when you are dealing with RGB.
PAL and NTSC are different types of colour encoding schemes - originally intended for TV broadcasts. RGB is not NTSC or PAL - its RGB - Red, Green and Blue, simple as that really!

These consoles you have all have RGB Scart cables available for them (I have noted 'Official' in brackets if an official cable is available for that console):-
SNES - Need to get a PAL Gamecube RGB Scart cable (Official)
N64 - Needs to be internally modded first - cable depends on mod performed.
Sega Genesis - Use a PAL RGB Scart cable (Usually custom made and available on ebay UK. The official scart cable was only available in France and surprisingly doesnt work as well as the custom ones)
Sega Saturn - Sorry dont know! (Official cable was available though)
Sega Dreamcast - Use a PAL RGB Scart cable (Official)

[Endymion]

I was thinking of doing that, but according to Endymion, it won't work. Maybe because my SNES, Sega Genesis, Sega Saturn, and Sega Dreamcast are all NTSC, and a SCART cable from UK wouldn't be compatible, as it being from the PAL region.

I didn't say you couldn't just use a cable--you absolutely can. You were asking about all those systems though, and if you want to set it and forget it, or at least get it down to a button-press, that's what you have to do. I never said that SCART cables (from the UK, or anywhere else for that matter) would not work. So long as the SCART cables are SCART and not Japanese RGB cables, and that the SCART cables are made for RGB and not S-video or Composite, it will work. That is exactly the kind of cable you need, a SCART RGB cable. You would be using it even if you used it in tandem with a switchbox like the one you linked to.

RGB is RGB. It's not NTSC or PAL.

I think SCART is just a European thing, but don't the Japanese use a 21-pin AV cable that is like a SCART cable? Couldn't I just get all my necessary equipment from Japan?

SCART is a plug. That's all it is. It's a plug the same way that DB-9 or DB-25 is a plug. You are probably scratching your head wondering "what the heck is DB-25?" Well that's the plug that VGA ordinarily connects with. SCART is just the plug and socket mechanism, nothing more. What you want is SCART that is made to connect RGB, and not Composite or S-video. You'll need to look for that when buying your SCART cable, because they are made to make those other connections too, and that's not what you want.

I'll say it again, all this stuff has been covered here many times, and going over it here is literally like teaching ABC to a kid. It's not complex. You're just too distanced from it all and haven't actually gotten your hands on this stuff yet to associate with all of the words you see here. If it sounds like too much work or puts you off, then maybe you're figuring something out, that it doesn't necessarily have to be for you. You could always mod an XBox or a PS2 and run emulators, ya know?

[Link83]

If it helps at all heres some ebay item numbers for some Official/Good Scart cables available on ebay with sellers who will ship to the US (Hopes its ok to post these):-

Official Gamecube RGB Scart cable (for use with your NTSC SNES, wont work with an NTSC Gamecube)
Item number:130245050560

Official Dreamcast RGB Scart cable
Item number:130245324571

Dont know which model of Genesis you have, but if its a Genesis 2 this RGB Scart cable is custom made and should work fine, the sellers a top guy aswell (He also makes Genesis 1 RGB Scart cables aswell, but has none listed at the moment)
Item number:180272133734

Honestly, I would just get one of these cables and a Scart to Component transcoder and give it a try. This would be your cheapest/easiest method 
...and if it doesnt work with one console (or you are not happy with the picture quality) you wont have lost as much money trying and could just sell the Scart to Component transcoder (which will be the most costly part)

[john]

Dont know which model of Genesis you have, but if its a Genesis 2 this RGB Scart cable is custom made and should work fine, the sellers a top guy aswell (He also makes Genesis 1 RGB Scart cables aswell, but has none listed at the moment)

Rob Webb also has MD/Gen 2 cables at under £10 and official MD1 cables for £15 (custom ones cheaper).

He has been around for years and is very trustworthy.

I was lucky enough to find a 2nd official MD1 scart cable at a car boot sale (£5 for a MD1, 4 or 5 games, an official six button pad and a 3button pad and an official scart cable).

I'm definitely glad to live in europe for gaming - a supergun can be created out of nothing more than a length of wire and a psu, virtually every tv made in the past 15+ years suports RGB and is both pal/ntsc capable.  Late releases/bad conversions have never been a worry as it's been easy to import consoles and games since the early 90's. 

Much better than the other way around and having to import a TV (or worse still put up with a tiny 24" multisync pc monitor - or the worst of all, making do with s-vid).

Europe is going backwards now though - we've gone from CRT to LCD and plasma which are far worse technologies.  Sure in 15years they will be great but atm the last 50years of development has given CRT the last word when it comes to playing pre-ps2 games.

[Link83]

Late releases/bad conversions have never been a worry as it's been easy to import consoles and games since the early 90's.

The only problem is that back when I used to buy Mega Drive/SNES/N64 games I didnt know that in Europe we were getting slower, bordered versions of games  (and many people still dont realise) I remember looking at the back of a games magazine and seeing import N64 games for £89.99 each (around $180) and I couldnt understand why people would buy them 'just to get the games earlier' (Or so I thought) Now I have ended up trying to rebuy all my games collections in NTSC - which is not an easy or cheap task.

Of course importing is alot easier and cheaper now  - especially with the availabilty of the internet. The only problems now is the ever decreasing reliability of modern consoles!

Europe is going backwards now though - we've gone from CRT to LCD and plasma which are far worse technologies.  Sure in 15years they will be great but atm the last 50years of development has given CRT the last word when it comes to playing pre-ps2 games.

I totally agree on this - I hate the fact that you cant buy CRTs new anymore. In the UK you can only find LCD and Plasmas in stores, despite their poorer picture quality (for most retro games anyway) They may look 'cool' having large screens and a thinner profile, but their picture quality pales in comparison to a good CRT.

Over in the US I believe there are CRT HDTV's? I wish we had some of them available over here 
If you want to go any higher than 480p over here your only choices are an LCD or a Plasma (Or an old CRT Computer Monitor, if you can find one)

[RGB32E]

Over in the US I believe there are CRT HDTV's? I wish we had some of them available over here 

Ummm... no, not for the past 3-4 years (high-end CRT HDTVs that is)... while a handful of different CRT televisons are still sold, they are all low end tv's you wouldn't want anyways... check out Circuit City and Best Buy's web sites (two of the largest chains in the US)
See if you can find something good 
www.bestbuy.com
www.circuitcity.com

The best CRT HDTVs sold in the US were:
KD-36XS955, KV-40XBR800, and KD-34XBR960... which haven't been sold new for years now...

However, the KDL-46XBR8 or KDL-55XBR8 (XBR8 == X4500 in the rest of the world) are looking to be good for games.  The only flat panel tech I've seen so far that looks good for games is the XEL-1 (OLED panel).  This tech (as represented by a first gen Sony XEL-1) has way better response time, black level and color than the best plasma and LCD...    So, I can't wait for a PSP-4000 with an OLED screen! ha...

[john]

The only problem is that back when I used to buy Mega Drive/SNES/N64 games I didnt know that in Europe we were getting slower, bordered versions of games  (and many people still dont realise) I remember looking at the back of a games magazine and seeing import N64 games for £89.99 each (around $180) and I couldnt understand why people would buy them 'just to get the games earlier' (Or so I thought) Now I have ended up trying to rebuy all my games collections in NTSC - which is not an easy or cheap task.

Thankfully I had a NTSC-J Super Nintendo before the UK release so totally missed out on the "PAL Experience" (other than at friends houses).  I did have a PAL MD for a while, but a 60hz switch and a rgb scart cable soon sorted that out.  all on a 14-21" TV - the joy of being a kid..  :>

As you have already bought the games once, maybe going down the v64/wildcard (or even one of the tototek carts) route and using a copier to complete your ntsc collection maybe cheaper/easier?

Of course importing is alot easier and cheaper now  - especially with the availabilty of the internet. The only problems now is the ever decreasing reliability of modern consoles!

Importing is definitely easier now, but I wouldn't say it's any cheaper - you used to be able to get a good deal from HK parallel importers who would ship to the UK.  Now they realise everyone here wants to import and have put prices up.  prices compared to the scum who used to charge £100 a game and advertise in the games mags (whats that big black bird?  a raven?  ;> ) are much cheaper though.

I totally agree on this - I hate the fact that you cant buy CRTs new anymore. In the UK you can only find LCD and Plasmas in stores, despite their poorer picture quality (for most retro games anyway) They may look 'cool' having large screens and a thinner profile, but their picture quality pales in comparison to a good CRT.

Indeed - I'm looking for a large 4:3 CRT TV for my 3yr old (she's got a MD2/SNES/DC/XBOX/PSX/PS2 in her room and soon to be a candycab if I can get one cheap (sub £100 :> )) and it's impossible.  I don't care about it being new but even 2nd hand is awkward - ebay is full of them for £10-£20, but miles away and I don't drive.  Locally people seem to want £70 for a 1983 model 21" trinitron.

I'm holding out for a decent mid-90's trinitron 29+"  :>  make a vga2rgb scart cable and she can play mame too.

Over in the US I believe there are CRT HDTV's? I wish we had some of them available over here 

some of the Samsung Slimfit CRT's do 720p, but they have massive problems - especially the geomotry on them (and I think they stopped selling them here - they were available in a local catalogue clearance shop a while back)

OLD CRT monitors are plenty up here, unfortunately they are all 17" and less - and finding a multisync one is impossible.