Is the SC-88 Backwards Compatible?

[Pinwizkid]

Does anyone if the Roland SC-88 is backwards compatible allowing you to play any games that use the SC-55 and SC-55mk II as MIDI options? Or is each module treated as a separate entity by various software?

For example, if I choose SC-55 as my sound module in Castlevania, but connect an SC-88, will the music play and sound the same? I'm sure this answer is out there, I just couldn't seem to find it specifically.

Thanks!
-BB

[SuperDeadite]

The SC-88 is 100% backwards compatible with the SC-55 MK II.  However there are some minor differences between the original 55 and the MK II.  A couple of the instrument mappings were changed between the units in order to make the MK II 100% GM compliant.  This means that if a game was programed for the original 55, and uses those specific instruments, the MKII and 88 will use the wrong instrument.   The MKII and later is also missing the ''fall back feature'' which a few odd games like Might and Magic III (not on X68K) do use.

As far as the X68K is concerned, all the 55 games were meant for the original 55.  Mahou Daisakusen is the only retail game I know of that officially supports the MKII.  And Deadly Edge is the only game which actually takes advantage of the 88's extra hardware.

[Pinwizkid]

Exactly the answer I was looking for. Thank you sir.

[elmer]

The SC-88 is 100% backwards compatible with the SC-55 MK II.  However there are some minor differences between the original 55 and the MK II.  A couple of the instrument mappings were changed between the units in order to make the MK II 100% GM compliant.  This means that if a game was programed for the original 55, and uses those specific instruments, the MKII and 88 will use the wrong instrument.   The MKII and later is also missing the ''fall back feature'' which a few odd games like Might and Magic III (not on X68K) do use.

As far as the X68K is concerned, all the 55 games were meant for the original 55.  Mahou Daisakusen is the only retail game I know of that officially supports the MKII.  And Deadly Edge is the only game which actually takes advantage of the 88's extra hardware.

IIRC, the SC-55 came out just before General Midi was finally standardized (thus the slightly different instrument mapping), and it was also one of Roland's last hardware-synths (I think that honor goes to the wonderful JD-990).

AFAIK, the SC-55MkII and SC-88 were based on Roland's JV-1080 PowerPC-based soft-synth, but with General Midi and GS sound banks/instrument mapping (and cut-down polyphony).

IMHO ... if you really want to hear SC-55 tunes in the way that the musician that created them intended, then you need a real SC-55, and not an SC-55MK2 or SC-88. The models are "compatible", not "identical".

[SuperDeadite]

The SC-88 is 100% backwards compatible with the SC-55 MK II.  However there are some minor differences between the original 55 and the MK II.  A couple of the instrument mappings were changed between the units in order to make the MK II 100% GM compliant.  This means that if a game was programed for the original 55, and uses those specific instruments, the MKII and 88 will use the wrong instrument.   The MKII and later is also missing the ''fall back feature'' which a few odd games like Might and Magic III (not on X68K) do use.

As far as the X68K is concerned, all the 55 games were meant for the original 55.  Mahou Daisakusen is the only retail game I know of that officially supports the MKII.  And Deadly Edge is the only game which actually takes advantage of the 88's extra hardware.

IIRC, the SC-55 came out just before General Midi was finally standardized (thus the slightly different instrument mapping), and it was also one of Roland's last hardware-synths (I think that honor goes to the wonderful JD-990).

AFAIK, the SC-55MkII and SC-88 were based on Roland's JV-1080 PowerPC-based soft-synth, but with General Midi and GS sound banks/instrument mapping (and cut-down polyphony).

IMHO ... if you really want to hear SC-55 tunes in the way that the musician that created them intended, then you need a real SC-55, and not an SC-55MK2 or SC-88. The models are "compatible", not "identical".

If you are going to be that technical, the SC-55 isn't a true synth.  It is just a ROM chip that contains a set of samples.  Hence the slang term ''rompler.'' You can edit the samples to a degree, but you can't actually make completely original patches like a true synth such as the MT-32.

[elmer]

If you are going to be that technical, the SC-55 isn't a true synth.  It is just a ROM chip that contains a set of samples.  Hence the slang term ''rompler.'' You can edit the samples to a degree, but you can't actually make completely original patches like a true synth such as the MT-32.

Hahaha, if the SC-55 doesn't count as a real "synth" then, IMHO, neither does the MT-32. 

Yes, you're right, the SC-55 is based on ROM samples ... that then go through filters, low-frequency oscillators, and envelopes, just like any other synth (or professional sampler) of the day.

The MT-32 is exactly the same concept, except that the ROM samples primarily consisted of very short "attack" samples, followed by looped single-cycle ROM waveforms ... that then go through filters, low-frequency oscillators, and envelopes, just like any other synth (or professional sampler) of the day.

They're not significantly different technologies, it's mainly that by the time the SC-55 was released, ROM sizes had increased to where it became cheap enough to include complete samples, rather than just the short "attack" samples.

It's the details of exactly how all of the samples, filters, envelopes, and built-in effects work together that gives each machine its unique sound.

Which is why I still recommend that if you want to hear the music the way that it was intended ... you need to use exactly the same model of synth.

The SC-55MkII and SC-88 are much closer in sound to the original SC-55, than the SC-55 was to the MT-32 ... and they're great synths. But they're not "identical".

[BlueBMW]

I've tried all three.. SC-55, SC-55MK2, and an SC-88 and I honestly cant tell a difference between them when running sound canvas compatible games (either X68k or DOS)

[elmer]

I've tried all three.. SC-55, SC-55MK2, and an SC-88 and I honestly cant tell a difference between them when running sound canvas compatible games (either X68k or DOS)

Perhaps I just spent too much time listening to professional synths years ago.

I remember being very disappointed by the JV-1080 when it came out, it sounded really weak (to my ears) next to the previous generation of Roland synths. I sold off the JV-1080 and the SC-880-based modules (the high-end version of the SC-88) years ago, but I kept my MKS-70s, JD-990's and the old SC-55 (for games).

You're almost certainly right that any of those synths would be perfect for the X68000.

I'm sure that nobody but a crazy old fart like me would obsess over the difference! 

[SkyeWelse]

Hi Elmer,

Perhaps you or someone else might shed some light on this question I have. I'm thinking of getting an SC-55 since I feel that many older Dos based games were likely created with SC-55 in mind, especially those for PC-98. However, with what I read above in regards to there being a change between certain instruments from a SC-55 to an SC-55 Mk II, I'm not quite sure what to get.

So I guess it ultimately boils down to this question: If I were to get an SC-55, would games that were developed a little later for SC-55 Mk II, or possibly even the SC-88 still play sound using a SC-55, or would I get no sound due to lack of support of the SC-55 not being able to handle the instructions from games setup for SC-55 Mk II / SC-88?

I'm very new to using MIDI for games, so I wanted to do some research first.

Thanks!

-Thomas

[elmer]

So I guess it ultimately boils down to this question: If I were to get an SC-55, would games that were developed a little later for SC-55 Mk II, or possibly even the SC-88 still play sound using a SC-55, or would I get no sound due to lack of support of the SC-55 not being able to handle the instructions from games setup for SC-55 Mk II / SC-88?

I'm very new to using MIDI for games, so I wanted to do some research first.

Thanks!

-Thomas

I wish that I could give you a clear answer ... but I'm afraid that I don't really remember any games ever being specific to the SC-55MKII/SC-88.

I'm probably missing some, but IIRC, by the time that the SC-88 came around most PC games were using pre-mixed audio.

The "MIDI" DOS games years weren't a particularly long period, IMHO, and really just encompassed the MT32 (and variants), and the original SC-55 (Roland GS ... not-quite-general-MIDI).

There was a short period that the early Windows games were supporting General MIDI, where the SC-55MKII/SC-88 might make a difference ... but AFAIK the SC-55 was the gold standard that everything still specifically supported.

It's not a "fair" comparison, given your actual question, but IMHO it's interesting to listen to this (with headphones) ...

Roland vs Yamaha General MIDI Descent
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqLDSt-Jz_Q

I absolutely love the Descent and Descent 2 soundtracks ... for me they're the best of that era.

You only have to listen carefully to hear that while the Yamaha MU80 sounds good, and absolutely light-years ahead of a Sound Blaster, the original SC-55 just sounds absolutely great.

With the original SC-55, you're hearing it exactly how the composer created it ... and the difference is absolutely clear to me.

Now you can hear the Descent title on the SC-88 PRO here ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NxDDwxELuQ

It's really good, much closer to the original SC-55 than the MU-80 ... and it's got a really, really, really great deep low end bass thump and excellent effects ... but there are a couple of things that are just "wrong" (i.e. the tambourine).

Here's the original SC-55 ... not as much low-end bass as the SC-88 PRO, but the balance between the instruments is perfect, it's the exact synth that the composer created the music on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBVe_LX4gEk

At the end of the day, the choice is up to you.

[SkyeWelse]

Wow! Thanks very much for the nice overview and comparison here. Between the SC-55 and the SC-88, I definitely hear a difference with that Tambourine sound especially and prefer the lighter feel of how it sounds on the SC-55. Sounds even better on the Yamaha too, although there are many differences between the two where the Yamaha excels instrument quality-wise, but the Roland SC MIDI seems better suited overall for games.

This is all of course just my opinion after having heard Descent only, so perhaps I need to find a few more of these comparison videos to really make up my decision. I think I would mainly be using this for PC-98 and MSX games that supported MIDI, and most of the PC-98 games seem to support GS sound which would be ideal for SC-55 I would think.

Yeah I had a lot of fun memories with Descent and I remember convincing my substitute teacher for our Jr. High technology class that the regular professor was "totally cool" with us networking the school PCs to play multi-player Descent and we had a few fun memories between classmates during that short time that the teacher was out. I believe that a version of Descent exists for PC-98 as well, so I plan to find it.

Thanks again Elmer!

Edit: Oh I guess I do have one question, I noticed in that one video showcasing how Descent's music sounded on the SC-88 did not have a light on next to the SC-55 Map. Does turning on SC-55 Map fix a lot of these issues, say with this tambourine sound and others?

Hmm, I found some comparisons at least with Duke Nukem.

Duke Nukem - Stalker - SC-55

Duke Nukem - Stalker - SC-88 with SC-55 Map

Duke Nukem - Stalker - SC-88

It's a bit tough, at least for me, to tell the difference between the SC-55 and SC-55 Map setting on the SC-88. I guess I might be alright with either.

-Thomas

[elmer]

Hmm, I found some comparisons at least with Duke Nukem.

Duke Nukem - Stalker - SC-55

Duke Nukem - Stalker - SC-88 with SC-55 Map

It's a bit tough, at least for me, to tell the difference between the SC-55 and SC-55 Map setting on the SC-88. I guess I might be alright with either.

Thanks ... those are great comparisons. The SC-55 map does seem to fix the problem with the "wrong" instruments.

To me, the SC-88 has a really great machine ... but it really reminds me of exactly why I sold my JV-1080. Everything is somewhat over-effected and nothing stands out in the mix. It's all a bit muddy. Beautiful, but muddy.

The instrument balance is definitely "brighter" in tone in the SC-55, but more than that, there's a clearer distinction between layers.

To my ears, with headphones on, the difference is pretty clear.

In a busy room with unknown speaker quality and uncertain acoustics, I'd probably find it much, much harder to tell.

It's definitely a very "personal" choice.

They're both high-quality instruments ... so just pick whichever "sounds" better to your ears (or, perhaps, is just easier to find). 

[BlueBMW]

There were a few games out there that specifically had a Sound Canvas option in their settings (I seem to remember games like Master of Orion and Dune 2 being among them)  Now which sound canvas they are referring to I dont know.  I'd guess the SC-55 but hard to say.

Personally I use an 88 and it seems just fine.  I've got a 55 around also but I dont typically use it as much.

[Xan]

AFAIK, the SC-55MkII and SC-88 were based on Roland's JV-1080 PowerPC-based soft-synth, but with General Midi and GS sound banks/instrument mapping (and cut-down polyphony).

Did you get this information from a Roland publication, or a Roland employee?

IMHO ... if you really want to hear SC-55 tunes in the way that the musician that created them intended, then you need a real SC-55, and not an SC-55MK2 or SC-88. The models are "compatible", not "identical".

Actually, that's rather debatable in some cases. For instance, as far as the aforementioned Duke Nukem 3D is concerned, Lee Jackson used a RAP-10 for his part of the MIDI soundtrack (source: http://www.rinkworks.com/apogee/s/2.8.14.1.shtml). That card is SC-7 based, so it very likely has the same tone generation as the SC-55mkII (judging by the higher polyphony), albeit with a smaller ROM that only features the 128 GM tones. Because of this, there is a discrepancy between his tracks and those of Bobby Prince, which most likely were composed for a 1st gen GS-only SC-55 or SCC-1. They had the Flute Keyclick patch where Breath Noise is on the General MIDI arrangement, and some of his tracks (also in Doom) use this and seem to sound correct with the former patch.

And more trivia, the recording of Grabbag that came with Shadow Warrior (and that Lee Jackson released as MIDI a while ago) was actually done on a SC-88. Same most likely for that little recorded intermission track in Duke3D.

[elmer]

Did you get this information from a Roland publication, or a Roland employee?

I can't remember ... it was such a long time ago (I was spending a lot of money on toys like these when they originally came out).

IIRC, it was pretty well known at-the-time that the JD-800/JD-990 were the last of Roland's microchip-based sample-playback synths, and that Roland switched technology to the PowerPC in the next-generation JV-1080.

The SC-55 was 1991 technology from the JD-800/JD-990 era, and the SC-55Mk2/SC-88 are 1993 technology from JV-1080 era.

I could be wrong ... but then I'd have to find a different explanation for why the SC-55Mk2 & SC-88 have the same "smeared" sound (to my ears) as a JV-1080 rather than the clear distinction between instruments that you get with the original SC-55 (but with less bass).

Do you know differently?

IMHO ... if you really want to hear SC-55 tunes in the way that the musician that created them intended, then you need a real SC-55, and not an SC-55MK2 or SC-88. The models are "compatible", not "identical".

Actually, that's rather debatable in some cases. For instance, as far as the aforementioned Duke Nukem 3D is concerned, Lee Jackson used a RAP-10 for his part of the MIDI soundtrack (source: http://www.rinkworks.com/apogee/s/2.8.14.1.shtml). That card is SC-7 based, so it very likely has the same tone generation as the SC-55mkII (judging by the higher polyphony), albeit with a smaller ROM that only features the 128 GM tones. Because of this, there is a discrepancy between his tracks and those of Bobby Prince, which most likely were composed for a 1st gen GS-only SC-55 or SCC-1. They had the Flute Keyclick patch where Breath Noise is on the General MIDI arrangement, and some of his tracks (also in Doom) use this and seem to sound correct with the former patch.

Errr ... I think that you actually just agreed with me in that the tunes sound best when played back on the synth/technology that they were created on.

So if you're playing games that were created before 1993, i.e. nearly all of the popular titles in the X68000 library, then they were probably either created for the original SC55, or (more likely) for the MT-32.

[Xan]

I can't remember ... it was such a long time ago (I was spending a lot of money on toys like these when they originally came out).

IIRC, it was pretty well known at-the-time that the JD-800/JD-990 were the last of Roland's microchip-based sample-playback synths, and that Roland switched technology to the PowerPC in the next-generation JV-1080.

The SC-55 was 1991 technology from the JD-800/JD-990 era, and the SC-55Mk2/SC-88 are 1993 technology from JV-1080 era.

I could be wrong ... but then I'd have to find a different explanation for why the SC-55Mk2 & SC-88 have the same "smeared" sound (to my ears) as a JV-1080 rather than the clear distinction between instruments that you get with the original SC-55 (but with less bass).

Do you know differently?

No, I was just intrigued by your remark. I haven't had a chance to really compare an original SC-55 to a SC-55mkII or SC-88, but personally think the SC-88 sounds very good in most cases.

Errr ... I think that you actually just agreed with me in that the tunes sound best when played back on the synth/technology that they were created on.

So if you're playing games that were created before 1993, i.e. nearly all of the popular titles in the X68000 library, then they were probably either created for the original SC55, or (more likely) for the MT-32.

In many cases yes, but as I said, the RAP-10 for example isn't exactly identical to a first-gen SC-55. I know it's splitting hairs at this point, but if the focus was just on using the original composers' hardware, on wouldn't always use an original SC-55.