Is there any way to convert 480i to 480p?

[ZDragon]

I've been looking for a solution to this for quite some time now.
Basically, I'd like to have some sort of simple device that only does this one thing: take 480i signals in and put them out as a 480p signal, over YUV or preferably directly over VGA. The only device I know of is the X2VGA 2, but it only supports it in a so-called "EasyView" mode, that is decribed like this:

1. You can see only a half of the full screen at one time. When you need to see the hidden part, hold the Screen Shift Button on the X2VGA 2 and the screen will move continually until reaching the part you want.
2. Some screen instability / blurriness in 480i EasyView mode when you start the Xbox system with the X2VGA 2 is normal. Don't worry, it is harmless to your monitor and will not be there once you start the game in 480p, 720p, or 1080i modes.
Since the 480i Easyview feature has the two limitations above, it is only targeted at providing convenience to a short-term use in setting Xbox on the VGA monitor. DO NOT use 480i EasyView in playing 480i games or DVDs to reduce the risk of serious injury to your eyes.

->So, in the end... it just sucks. Not possible to play like that.




Now, how to convert 480i to 480p? Is there any way?

[blackevilweredragon]

you need what's called a "scaler", and they can get a tad expensive...

most HDTVs have this built in (if not all these days), but as you said you wanted it over VGA, so a "scaler" solution is a must...

If you are converting something like Composite and S-Video, you "could" get a regular TV tuner capture card and use a program called "DScaler", as long as the card is supported by DScaler...

(TV cards will come with a scaler, but they usually suck and only give you half-resolution 30fps..  Dscaler will give you 720x480 video at 60fps, as long as your CPU can take it..  my 933MHz Pentium III had no problem with it, but a 500MHz Celeron will..)

[RGB32E]

Hey, maybe you guys need to be aware of Farouja's Line doublers.  I own a Faroudja LD100, and it is the DEFACTO device for deinterlacing (e.g. 480i to 480p) video signals.  So, while a number of you out there are using the XRGBs and the X2VGAs, the best (and I repeat), the best solution is to buy a Faroudja Line Doubler.  Various Faroudja line doublers are fairly common on ebay.

Take note, the particular units LD100, and LD200 are old, yet extremely high-end.  The LD100's MSRP was $10,000 USD... It accepts composite, s-video, component, AND RGB.

So, search ebay for faroudja, and watch the prices and demand skyrocket!  

[blackevilweredragon]

line doubler?  doesn't that makes 480i only a 240p signal?  that would look nothing more than 320x240..  my route is cheaper and more effective (and completely programmable too)

[RGB32E]

Hmmm.. bewd... sounds like you have no idea what you're talking about.  Without wasting my energy explaining things to you, skim through this manual:

http://www.meridian-audio.com/faroudja/pro...hives/LD100.pdf

And no, it doesn't turn a 480i signal into a 240p signal.

Furthermore, most all of the people who use this form should have this book as reference:
http://www.amazon.com/Algorithms-Interface...ie=UTF8&s=books
RTFM  

[blackevilweredragon]

Hmmm.. bewd... sounds like you have no idea what you're talking about.  Without wasting my energy explaining things to you, skim through this manual:

http://www.meridian-audio.com/faroudja/pro...hives/LD100.pdf

And no, it doesn't turn a 480i signal into a 240p signal.

Furthermore, most all of the people who use this form should have this book as reference:
http://www.amazon.com/Algorithms-Interface...ie=UTF8&s=books
RTFM

um, i do know what im talking about, no need to be rude..

perhaps it shouldn't be called a "line DOUBLER" then...  line doubler on an INTERLACED source really just doubles the fields, which each field is only 240 lines..  thus on a DOUBLER it's useless..  you need more advanced algorithms, and what sucks, companies don't bother using the proper NAME for them these days...

[RGB32E]

BEWD,

I didn't mean to be rude, but you seem to be lacking when it comes to cognitive facilities  .  The Faroudja LD100 (for instance) takes an interlaced video signal, and outputs VGA (non-interlaced).  It does a better job than any TV tuner card or HDTV I've ever had the opportunity to evaluate (a fair amount at that).

I personally own a TV tuner card on one of my PCs (using DScalar).  The result is total crap by comparison!  While there is some novelty in programmable filters (and the default ones included with DScalar), it is a wretched solution overall.

Until you actually see a Faroudja with a video game RGB source, you should STFU.

-Fin!

[blackevilweredragon]

you said you didn't mean to be rude, yet in the same post you said "STFU"  XD

dude, i know what a scaler should look like, i use one that is installed in my HDTVs "Module Bay", it does pixel-by-pixel analysis, instead of "frame" anything...

[RGB32E]

I've been looking for a solution to this for quite some time now.
Basically, I'd like to have some sort of simple device that only does this one thing: take 480i signals in and put them out as a 480p signal, over YUV or preferably directly over VGA. The only device I know of is the X2VGA 2, but it only supports it in a so-called "EasyView" mode, that is decribed like this:

->So, in the end... it just sucks. Not possible to play like that.

Now, how to convert 480i to 480p? Is there any way?

Well... getting back to ZDragon's original question, the answer is yes.  A Faroudja "Line Doubler" is one solution.  

Regardless of nit picking the potential misnomer of "Line Doubling," they are perfect for component and RGB to VGA conversion (and affordable on eBay).  All other methods/products I've encounter cause a varying delay due to picture processing/scaling.  The Farouja has a 16ms delay (one field), which no HDTV can even claim (generally having a >100ms delay).

Also, the LD100 I own ISN'T a scalar, it is effectively a de-interlacer.  No more shenanigans!

[blackevilweredragon]

um, 100ms delay?  i really doubt it...  my HDTV with the module hits 20ms, without the module, 24ms...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was nitpicking it because I wanted to make sure that we weren't talking about a cheep scaler, which with the price you listed, isn't exactly cheap for the simple thing this guy wants to do...  He simply wants VGA/MCGA 640x480 out of a 480i signal, a TV tuner with DScaler will be completely sufficient enough...  Using anything over 100 dollars is overkill...

[RGB32E]

Oh yeah, 20ms... prove it!  There is a world of difference between a console connected via component or RGB through a LD100, compared to a TV tuner with DScalar (S-Video, composite).  Do you need to be reminded of the price of an XRGB?  Just admit that you are making false assertions.  You haven't seen what I've seen!  

[NFG]

You guys are retarded.  Get an X-RGB2 or 3 and be done with it.  $200-300 and you're happily playing.

And dragon: A field may be 240 lines but if you DOUBLE IT it's 480.  Duh.

[blackevilweredragon]

You guys are retarded.  Get an X-RGB2 or 3 and be done with it.  $200-300 and you're happily playing.

And dragon: A field may be 240 lines but if you DOUBLE IT it's 480.  Duh.

If you double it, it still isn't true 480 lines..  Duh.

This is EXACTLY how the modern PC does 320x240...  It's really 640x480 doubled (and any oscilloscope and good monitor with info display, will prove it)...   (and technically 320x480)...

[blackevilweredragon]

Oh yeah, 20ms... prove it!   There is a world of difference between a console connected via component or RGB through a LD100, compared to a TV tuner with DScalar (S-Video, composite).  Do you need to be reminded of the price of an XRGB?  Just admit that you are making false assertions.  You haven't seen what I've seen! 

(self edited the attack, im sorry)  you've done nothing but pull a GZeus, and be stubborn..

Last time I proved something it went no where because too many damn people couldn't take being proven wrong..  So now, you'll have to just look it up..  100ms is WAY too long, hell, NOTHING would be playable with that...  push a button, a second later THEN it responds...

EDIT:  IF I am to prove it, you need to promise you accept being proven wrong..  I don't even TRY anymore after the GZeus issue...

[RGB32E]

Lawrence,

Sorry to be such a retard, but my point was that a LD100 can be obtained for about the same price (or less) than a XRGB2/3 and acheive similar or better results.

bewd,

1000ms == 1 second...

[ken_cinder]

Interjecting into topic, 100ms response time? BLECH! HDTVs can't claim better than 16ms? Go have a look at the specifications on my TV, an Acer AT3220A. 8ms response time. And my TV isn't exactly "top of the line" either.

[blackevilweredragon]

bewd,

1000ms == 1 second...

ok, i apologized, i missed a 0...

but i still stand on my TV pulling off around 30ms...  I did the "Video Timecode" test on it, while displaying both on the TV and on a computer with it's VGA connection being split to both the TV and a CRT monitor (which usually has no latency)

I will re-do the test again to prove it, but I need YOU to promise that when you're proven wrong, you admit it, and just end it..

Thouh, I have to say, why the hell bother?  who the hell cares?  this is more like a pathetic d*ck measuring contest

[blackevilweredragon]

Interjecting into topic, 100ms response time? BLECH! HDTVs can't claim better than 16ms? Go have a look at the specifications on my TV, an Acer AT3220A. 8ms response time. And my TV isn't exactly "top of the line" either.

um, correct me if i'm wrong, but response time and latency are a tad different...

[RGB32E]

Interjecting into topic, 100ms response time? BLECH! HDTVs can't claim better than 16ms? Go have a look at the specifications on my TV, an Acer AT3220A. 8ms response time. And my TV isn't exactly "top of the line" either.

You're confusing pixel response time with the time it takes to process an incoming interlaced video signal.

[ken_cinder]

Ok, fair enough. How does one find out this info about their TV? Just for kicks.

I happened to be reading this topic because I'm also interested. My older consoles look like HELL on my TV. My PSOne is FUGLY pixelated.

[blackevilweredragon]

Ok, fair enough. How does one find out this info about their TV? Just for kicks.

I happened to be reading this topic because I'm also interested. My older consoles look like HELL on my TV. My PSOne is FUGLY pixelated.

well the pixilation is just going to happen, when you blow up such small pixels to such a large res

to do the test, you need a computer with either TWO VGA outputs, or a computer with "TV out", but I highly do NOT recommend that route, because the NTSC encoding on the GPU itself has latency...

Once done, use a CRT monitor next to the HDTV, and play this video file...  (with a cloned display)

http://www.mediacollege.com/downloads/video/timecode/

oh, and make sure the CRT on the computer is in either 60Hz if your american, or 100Hz if your european (better if you can make the CRT do 50Hz, but i doubt it)..

Then take a picture with a FAST camera (but not too fast to not see anything on the monitor ), then you mathematically calculate the difference in numbers..  that's how much latency you have..

people have been doing this for a looooooong time...

[NFG]

THanks for clearing that up, RGB32E.  YOu didn't actually say that the Faroudja was cheaper, only that it was $10k.  Hence the abuse.  =)

If you double it, it still isn't true 480 lines.. Duh.

This is EXACTLY how the modern PC does 320x240... It's really 640x480 doubled (and any oscilloscope and good monitor with info display, will prove it)... (and technically 320x480)...

320x240 isn't 640x480 DOUBLED, it's HALVED.  What the hell are you thinking when you say 320 is double 640?  It's clearly, obviously not.

You can't possibly be this stupid, so I have to wonder what the hell you're confusing with this conversation to come up with the daft things you're apparently saying.  I mean, either you're confused or you're unable to make it clear what you're saying, so sort it out!

[RGB32E]

THanks for clearing that up, RGB32E.  YOu didn't actually say that the Faroudja was cheaper, only that it was $10k.  Hence the abuse.  =)

If you double it, it still isn't true 480 lines.. Duh.

This is EXACTLY how the modern PC does 320x240... It's really 640x480 doubled (and any oscilloscope and good monitor with info display, will prove it)... (and technically 320x480)...

320x240 isn't 640x480 DOUBLED, it's HALVED.  What the hell are you thinking when you say 320 is double 640?  It's clearly, obviously not.

You can't possibly be this stupid, so I have to wonder what the hell you're confusing with this conversation to come up with the daft things you're apparently saying.  I mean, either you're confused or you're unable to make it clear what you're saying, so sort it out!

Well, I can only explain so much.     That's why I said that weremonkey should READ the LD100 manual, and SEARCH eBay for pricing/availability.  I can't help him from going off on tangents and being retarded... lol

[blackevilweredragon]

THanks for clearing that up, RGB32E.  YOu didn't actually say that the Faroudja was cheaper, only that it was $10k.  Hence the abuse.  =)

If you double it, it still isn't true 480 lines.. Duh.

This is EXACTLY how the modern PC does 320x240... It's really 640x480 doubled (and any oscilloscope and good monitor with info display, will prove it)... (and technically 320x480)...

320x240 isn't 640x480 DOUBLED, it's HALVED.  What the hell are you thinking when you say 320 is double 640?  It's clearly, obviously not.

You can't possibly be this stupid, so I have to wonder what the hell you're confusing with this conversation to come up with the daft things you're apparently saying.  I mean, either you're confused or you're unable to make it clear what you're saying, so sort it out!

for a computer monitor to display 320x240 at 60Hz, it would need to be 15KHz scan-rate.. However, this is not the case, as if it were, any CRT would handle a Genesis...

A computers graphics card (including the first MCGA/VGA cards) double-scan's it internally to 30KHz, but the end result is 480 lines, every two-lines being a duplicate...

(my scan rates are approximate, i don't know the EXACT number off hand...)

Using a computer CRT in 320x240, if you look closely to see the scan-lines, you'll see that they are double-pixeled...

[blackevilweredragon]

THanks for clearing that up, RGB32E.  YOu didn't actually say that the Faroudja was cheaper, only that it was $10k.  Hence the abuse.  =)

If you double it, it still isn't true 480 lines.. Duh.

This is EXACTLY how the modern PC does 320x240... It's really 640x480 doubled (and any oscilloscope and good monitor with info display, will prove it)... (and technically 320x480)...

320x240 isn't 640x480 DOUBLED, it's HALVED.  What the hell are you thinking when you say 320 is double 640?  It's clearly, obviously not.

You can't possibly be this stupid, so I have to wonder what the hell you're confusing with this conversation to come up with the daft things you're apparently saying.  I mean, either you're confused or you're unable to make it clear what you're saying, so sort it out!

Well, I can only explain so much.     That's why I said that weremonkey should READ the LD100 manual, and SEARCH eBay for pricing/availability.  I can't help him from going off on tangents and being retarded... lol

would you STOP acting like GZeus and fucking call me names?!!  DAMNIT!!

[RGB32E]

for a computer monitor to display 320x240 at 60Hz, it would need to be 15KHz scan-rate.. However, this is not the case, as if it were, any CRT would handle a Genesis...

A computers graphics card (including the first MCGA/VGA cards) double-scan's it internally to 30KHz, but the end result is 480 lines, every two-lines being a duplicate...

(my scan rates are approximate, i don't know the EXACT number off hand...)

Using a computer CRT in 320x240, if you look closely to see the scan-lines, you'll see that they are double-pixeled...

Uhh... sounds like weredragon is making a mute point, and walking in circles... (i.e. master of the obvious)

BTW. the horse is dead

[NFG]

Yeah, so what you're saying is a 320x240 screen is internally doubled in size before being presented as a 640x480 VGA signal.  That's completly unlike saying a 320x240 screen is double the resolution!!

I have no idea what the hell you meant to say or what the hell we're talking about anymore, but suffice it to say you don't make things smaller by doubling them.

[RGB32E]

THanks for clearing that up, RGB32E.  YOu didn't actually say that the Faroudja was cheaper, only that it was $10k.  Hence the abuse.  =)

If you double it, it still isn't true 480 lines.. Duh.

This is EXACTLY how the modern PC does 320x240... It's really 640x480 doubled (and any oscilloscope and good monitor with info display, will prove it)... (and technically 320x480)...

320x240 isn't 640x480 DOUBLED, it's HALVED.  What the hell are you thinking when you say 320 is double 640?  It's clearly, obviously not.

You can't possibly be this stupid, so I have to wonder what the hell you're confusing with this conversation to come up with the daft things you're apparently saying.  I mean, either you're confused or you're unable to make it clear what you're saying, so sort it out!

Well, I can only explain so much.     That's why I said that weremonkey should READ the LD100 manual, and SEARCH eBay for pricing/availability.  I can't help him from going off on tangents and being retarded... lol

would you STOP acting like GZeus and fucking call me names?!!  DAMNIT!!

I will if you stop posting on this thread, and about this subject (beating a dead horse).

[blackevilweredragon]

Yeah, so what you're saying is a 320x240 screen is internally doubled in size before being presented as a 640x480 VGA signal.  That's completly unlike saying a 320x240 screen being double the resolution!!

I have no idea what the hell you meant to say or what the hell we're talking about anymore, but suffice it to say you don't make things smaller by doubling them.

like i said before, and tried telling GZeus, I know what I want to say, I just present it very horribly..

If only my specific autism had an off-switch...

[blackevilweredragon]

look RGB32E, I don't know you, and you obviously don't know me..

Allow me to introduce myself, and PLEASE read it...

I get angry very fast due to a violent past..  I am better, but I still get pissed off easily like a bomb ready to go off..  So, like a bomb, don't provoke me, it only makes things worse, and stresses me out (which can kill me!)..

I also struggle from Autism...  I forget the name of it, but in my case, here's the situation..

I think outside of the box, I don't think of things the same way other people do, but due to my way of thinking, I can learn things quick, fast, etc, but I suck at presenting things...  When I present things, I present things in how I think, but not in a general way for YOU or anyone else, to understand..  To me, it's like a foreign language, in which I don't really know...

I know my stuff, im not stupid, I just can't "say" it so easily like you and others can..  And calling me names, and calling me stupid, etc, doesn't help but make me have bad thoughts, and get stressed out, which I HATE beyond belief...  And right now, im already stressed out today because my personal life has been falling apart in the last 5 years...  It's never improved, but only gotten worse for me...

[NFG]

And that's the end of this thread!