Arcade LCD Screens

[Blaine]

There's a good chance I'll have to replace the monitor in my cab.

I noticed that Happs stocks LCD screens. I've had 0 experience with these screens and I was wondering if anyone else has. For starters it'll probably take me about $500 to convert the cab over to LCD (I'll need to convert the RGB to VGA, so I'll need an encoder, the screen costs about $350).

The standard Happs 19" crt is $150 until the end of the month and I'm guessing it'll be about $60 to ship it as well.

So what I'm trying to figure out is, is it worth it to pay twice as much to upgrade to LCD and then, hopefully, not have to replace the screen as soon as I'd have to replace the CRT.

Any input is welcome, thanks.

[NFG]

LCDs won't look as good as tubes, but they'll be lighter and easier to move around, and will never lose convergence.  I would walk the ends of the earth for a good tube, I wouldn't cross town for a good LCD.  YMMV!  =)

[viletim!]

I'd suggest you try to play some games on an LCD before you consider downgrading to one.

[kendrick]

I just want to add my agreement with Tim, Lawrence, and Lawrence's evil echo. :) An LCD is fine for games that are not event-driven. If you're displaying text from a trivia machine or card faces in virtual poker, then it doesn't matter if the image is a few milliseconds off here and there. But fighting games, platformers, and anything else that might be tied to the raster clock will cause a player to suffer display lag.

It's also worth noting that LCD screens have a fixed, native resolution. So if you're running multiple titles with different sync rates on the same screen, you'll see that many (if not most) will have a hardware-scaled image, which adds further display lag. Until a cybernetic, digital vision implant becomes practical, arcde gaming will continue to be best served by analog displays.

I wonder if the best of both worlds is possible? The raster gun is sixty-year-old technology, and we've had LCD crystals since the 70's. Is it possible for us to produce a combined display that has the best functions of both? Something flat that might require backlighting, but has a phosphor surface that gets color and brightness information from side-mounted lasers. None of the weight or the environmental hazards of the tube, and none of the chunkiness or the lag of the LCD.

-KKC, who should really take out a patent every time he has a dumbass idea like that.

[ido8bit]

I read somewhere about a kind of hybrid display that is sort of a cross between a CRT and an LCD being developed, but I can't remember what site it was on.   Something that uses an array of electron guns to light individual phosphor pixels.  No idea how far along in development this is or whether it will be practical though.  

Back to the original point.  I'd suggest you try playing the kind of games you'll be playing in your cabinet on a PC with an LCD display and see how you like it.  While the response time has improved it's not quite there yet and I find the scaling and relatively low contrast annoying.  

Personally, I think LCDs are for laptops.  I'll stick with CRTs.  My current stockpile of CRTs should keep me going for a long time

[grahf]

LCDs are ok for slow moving games, but the quality just isnt there. For faster moving stuff, forget it. CRT all the way.

[mr. newbie]

any of you played on a 2ms lcd? personally i dont have much experience with them but most people say the response time problem isn't an issue nowadays. the hybrid technology is sed. i'm waiting for that.  and with an lcd you want to run everything at it's native resolution or else the lcd will scale it for you which you do not want.

personally, i feel a state of the art lcd should be comparable to a 25 year old rgb whatever. i cant say for sure since i dont own an lcd though.

your gonna want an lcd if your cab has a lindberg in it  

[NFG]

The problem isn't only the response time, in fact that's really not as much an issue now as it was (But it's still worse than CRT, which for all intents and purposes has no pixel activation lag at all).

The big problem is that fixed resolution displays cannot cope gracefully with other, non-standard resolutions.  The PC Engine can display different resolutions, from 256 pixels to 512 pixels horizontally, in 8 pixel steps (a total of 32 different horizontal resolutions).  A CRT can speed up or slow down its electron sweep to cope with these changes without any loss of quality, but an LCD has only one resolution.  Any attempts to use a different resolution causes the LCD to resample the image, degrading the image quality.  Often this degradation is extreme, and even in the best of examples it will make the image look blurry.

Arcade PCBs have even more resolutions than consoles, they're free from debilitating 'standards'.   Arcade PCBs play fast and loose with framerates too, and LCDs have fixed refresh rates - usually 60Hz where a CRT often supports from 50Hz, way up to 85 Hz or even higher.

LCDs cannot change resolution, and cannot change refresh.  Asking them to do it results in all kinds of visual artifacts.

And that, in a nutshell, is why you need a CRT if you really care about the visual quality of your games.

[Fudoh]

LCDs cannot change resolution, and cannot change refresh. Asking them to do it results in all kinds of visual artifacts.

I won't argue about the resolution problem, but just to put things right: there are LCD panels now which can run natively in 50, 60 & 72Hz without any artefacts. (Mine for example: LG M3200C).

This point is extremely important for running a LCD as a homecinema screen. You need 50Hz for PAL Video & Film, 60Hz for NTSC Video and 72Hz for NTSC Film.

Fudoh

[NFG]

I can't find any specs about that monitor that suggest it has a native sync rate of anything but 60, only that it will ACCEPT sync rates from a 56-75Hz (not from 50 as you suggest).  

I'm not aware of any multi-rate LCD, I do encourage you to prove me wrong, I'd be quite interested in seeing it.

[Fudoh]

I'm not aware of any multi-rate LCD, I do encourage you to prove me wrong, I'd be quite interested in seeing it.

You're welcome to join us (hometheater fans) on avsforums.com (USA) or avforums.com (UK). As soon as you're talking external scaling solutions there's nothing more important than a perfect internal sync to the incoming refreshrates.

There are tons of display which either work fixed at 60Hz or 50Hz internally (or somewhere in between, e.g. 56.25Hz for Pioneer Plasmas), but especially here in Europa, 50Hz internally are a must if using an external scaler.

The Panasonic Professional Plasmas for example (PHD8 series) sync to 50 and 60Hz via VGA. The Nec LCDs (3210, 4010) sync to 50, 60 & 72 Hz. Even some LGs home LCD units do 50 and 60Hz natively.

Running test applications for these refresh rates (e.g. Juddertest on the PC) is the first and utmost important thing you need to always first. The specs - unfortunately - tell nothing about the internal refresh - it's all hard work testing...

I'm running a dynamic output from my videoscaler, outputting 50Hz for PAL, 60Hz for NTSC Video and 72Hz for NTSC Film (well, actually 50, 59.94, 71.92) for perfectly smooth transitions with all kind of materials on the LG M3200.

I know that the internal 60Hz refresh has been the MENACE of LCDs and Plasmas for years, but believe me, the manufacturers are learning - fast.

Fudoh

[Endymion]

The Panasonic Professional Plasmas for example (PHD8 series) sync to 50 and 60Hz via VGA.

I have this. (Damn nice telly for three grand by the way.)

Near as I can see from the manual it states "Applicable input signals" over VGA from 50Hz all the way to 85 with several various syncs in between, even oddball ones like 56 and 72. I'd be shocked if it's actually displaying anything other than 60Hz which is smack on where in the chart? Paired with the native resolution of the screen of course, 1366x768.

I think "applicable input signal" means exactly what they say it means--that it can work with that input. Not that it is giving you that output.

[blackevilweredragon]

My LCD monitor can sync as low as 54Hz, but the picture seems odd when that low (via VGA and DVI)...  The LCDs refreshing on mine will infact go low, and you can see the pixels alternating columns (I believe it's the screen matrix)...

I run my LCD in 60Hz, even though it can do 75Hz, mainly because I play Genesis games on it, and prefer it to be synced perfectly...

[-Martin-]

I will argue here.

Not ALL LCDs have a Lag time, only ones with utterly rubbish Upscalers and DSPs have that.  And I seriously doubt professional Arcade LCDs would even have DSP... seriously - if you're feeding it native resolution RGB, why the hell would you need to filter it?

Playing OutRun 2006 on my LCD (which needs no lag otherwise it is not playable, even with a few milsec lag) is fine and playable as it is on any CRT.


THe sharpness of an LCD in it's native resolution is generally better than that of a CRT - however due to the inability to alter pixel placement because they are fixed - it will look notably blurrier when fed something outwith the monitors native spec.

However, one thing is that - you will be shelling out a great deal of money for an LCD with a response time equal to that of a CRT refreshing at 60Hz, however remember that LCDs do cause less eye strain because there is no flicker.


IMO the only disadvantages with LCD are the upscaling, and the price.

If LCDs as good as LG's XDTVs and Sharps Aquos displays cost the same as a good CRT, I would seriously consider using them instead.

However - they don't.

[Fudoh]

I think "applicable input signal" means exactly what they say it means--that it can work with that input. Not that it is giving you that output.

I have installed quite a few PHD8 displays. While they can ACCEPT a wide range of refreh rates and "display" lots of them, only 50 *AND* 60Hz are correctly displayed. The PHD8 series does show perfectly smooth 50Hz and 60Hz signals via VGA (not on the digital domain though).

Tobias

[blackevilweredragon]

Geez, if one spam bot wasn't enough, I don't know what is...

If you guys want to hire another mod, i'm willing to rid this place of spam (i visit every day, almost every hour)

[kendrick]

Sorry guys, I just got back from Botcon so I'm a little behind on moderator duties. I'm closing this topic, so please start a new thread if you wish to continue discussion of arcade LCD screens.

-KKC