N64 joystick replacement

[NES-Luke]

I'm looking for alternative replacements for the N64 joystick. I was thinking of robbing the stick from a Playstation controller, but they seem to be potentiometers, while the N64 uses a ball-mouse style sensor...

Has anyone got any suggestions as to a suitable alternate?

or even just a way to prevent the standard one from grinding down into powder?

I'm not interested in the replacement joysticks that are on ebay all the time, I want a permanent fix.

[kendrick]

For clarity's sake... You want to swap out the analog stick on an OEM Nintendo 64 controller for a superior one, right? That's not inconceivably difficult, but I don't think a lot of people have bothered to do it. If memory serves, the N64 controller uses optics to measure the distance of stick travel, rather than hall effect sensors or some other mechanical potentiometer. Replacing all the LED and sensor components would be fiddly and frustrating, to say nothing of translating pot resistance output into something the encoder chip could relate to.

Two thoughts come to mind. I once knew a guy who got so fed up with the N64 analog stick that he went and fabricated titanium replacement components for all the moving parts. Most of us are not mechanical engineering students with access to a state-of-the-art machine shop, so this solution isn't quite practical. The other thought is the use of a third-party N64 controller encoder, since most of the off-brand controllers used pots for the analog stick. Swapping that chip into a Nintendo-branded controller would allow you to drop a more ordinary analog joystick in place of the optical one, since the third-party encoder expects that kind of input already.

Can I find a link? Not a very damned informative one, but it does describe the replacement of the analog stick, albeit not in the way you're describing. Have a look at a guy's portable N64 project, where he actually did swap in a PS2 analog stick for the N64 one:

http://gannon.tk/page.php?n64p=

-KKC, who can't find a crappy controller to trade in with this first-run Genesis so he can make his money back on the investment. :)

[NFG]

Why not just buy another controller?  Aren't they so cheap they're practically free by now?

[phreak97]

im wondering what kind of signal leaves the stick module.. could it be possible it's voltage levels? if so then you could substitue it for something which uses pots, like a ps2 controller.. it's something i've been meaning to look into myself, but i havnt had time lately.

[kendrick]

I think the rationale is that for some people, the N64 controller is perfect in every way except for the analog stick. The motivation is to improve once and forever, rather than to repair or to replace every six months of intensive Goldeneye action.

-KKC, who is neck-in-neck with SegaSonicFan for the number ten spot on GamesX for number of posts to the forum. :)

[NFG]

I've found that greasing up the fulcrum on a new stick allows it to live more or less forever.  The reason they get sloppy is friction wearing out the plastic nubs that create the fulcrum.

[NES-Luke]

im wondering what kind of signal leaves the stick module.. could it be possible it's voltage levels? if so then you could substitue it for something which uses pots, like a ps2 controller.. it's something i've been meaning to look into myself, but i havnt had time lately.

I ripped both the N64 pad, and a PS pad apart, they're different, as I stated in my original post.

The N64 uses optics similar to the way a ball mouse registers movement.

While the PS pad uses potentiometers. obviously the seperate encoders are the problem with that swap.

The problem with just getting a new controller is that they're not manufactured anymore, as one might expect, and finding one that isn't already dead is quite a task.

I have greased the one I have, but it was already starting to go loose on me, and it's making for less than ideal gameplay.

[Aidan]

im wondering what kind of signal leaves the stick module.. could it be possible it's voltage levels?

A set of quadrature pulses. Therein lies the problem. To interface the PS2 potentiometer based joystick would require something that would take the voltage, work out the change in position, encode it as quadrature pulses and send it to the controller.

Possible, yes.

[kendrick]

Yes, possible. But do we really want to add that amount of software to a controller? And an N64 controller, of all things.

I was thinking about swapping in the third-party encoder, and it got me wondering... Are there any known compatibility problems with the off brand controllers? That would be a show stopper, especially if there are issues of calibration to consider.

-KKC, who must think of a way to hide all the boxes of overpriced gaming hardware from the girlfriend.

[Endymion]

The problem with just getting a new controller is that they're not manufactured anymore, as one might expect, and finding one that isn't already dead is quite a task.

Where are you located? Every time I walk into Gamestop stores here in the USA they have brand new N64 pads made by Pelican. The sticks' mechanism appears to be metal rather than plastic, I'd reckon they live a lot longer than Nintendo's pads. They only cost 9.99.

[kendrick]

American retailers were largely bamboozled by game distribution companies, even the dedicated chains. When they ordered X number of a popular game, they were sometimes also forced to orer Y number of ratty peripheral at risk of not getting any of the game. This, and not popularity or usefulness, is why we see shelves full of unloved N64 controllers and Gameboy screen magnifiers and bizarre Playstation cleaning tools and so forth. Phreak is in Australia, and from what I've heard second-hand, stores there don't put up with that kind of crap.

-KKC, who wishes the American consumer didn't fall for that kind of crap either.

[NES-Luke]

Where are you located? Every time I walk into Gamestop stores here in the USA they have brand new N64 pads made by Pelican. The sticks' mechanism appears to be metal rather than plastic, I'd reckon they live a lot longer than Nintendo's pads. They only cost 9.99.

From my experience, the third party pads aren't very ergonomic. I had considered that option. I have no great attraction to, or opposition to the N64 pad, but I would like to keep it original.

I wonder about the stick in the third party pads though, it is possible that it uses the same method to send the signal to the encoder? if that were the case it would just be a simple swap.

[kendrick]

Yeah, that's the point of the encoder swap. The optical thing in the Nintendo-branded controller is an expensive part, though arguably more precise than the equivalent potentiometer stick. The only problem is that there's no good way to tell what kind of analog stick a third-party N64 controller wil have unless you open it up and see the pot mechanism for yourself.

On the other hand, in the right store an off-brand N64 controller is less than five bucks, so you can take a chance without breaking the bank.

-KKC, performing strange tricks with backup tapes.

[Endymion]

From my experience, the third party pads aren't very ergonomic. I had considered that option. I have no great attraction to, or opposition to the N64 pad, but I would like to keep it original.

Near as I can tell the one I saw was identical to Nintendo's mold. I'll pick one up to compare.

[NES-Luke]

This just came to me...

is it at all possible that the encoder chip from a PlayStation controller would send/recieve data via the same line/format?

in the event that it did, the encoders could be swapped, the functionality of the "controller pak" slot would be lost, but it's rarely used anyway...

Not likely possible, but it's a thought...

[kendrick]

Input would be wonderful. Output would not. The N64 has a different serial signal and would not be able to make use of the output from a Playstation controller encoder. Not without some level of secondary conversion.

-KKC, awake too early.

[NES-Luke]

it's seeming more and more like just getting one of those crap third party pads is my best bet...

[Guest]

i have never, ever, found a third party controller as good as an original.
swapping the encoder from a third party pad will be quite a task, since you have the expansion slot to deal with. also the encoder in third party stuff is generally made onto the pcb, so you have to cut it out and solder to the traces, you dont get any leads. this is a pain when youre working with many traces.

dont get me wrong, i'd love to see it done.

is converting levels to quadrature pulses so hard with a microcontroller? if someone were to write a pic program and post it here, it wouldnt be so hard once youre past the programming side..

[Aidan]

It's not amazingly difficult to do - It could be implemented on a PIC for example. Basically, the code would need to sample the pot output, compare to the output last time, and generate the necessary pulse chain if there's a change in the value.

A PIC with a built-in ADC would make life a bit easier - it's possible to do analog conversions without an ADC, but component tolerence makes each setup unique.

[phreak97]

i have never, ever, found a third party controller as good as an original.
swapping the encoder from a third party pad will be quite a task, since you have the expansion slot to deal with. also the encoder in third party stuff is generally made onto the pcb, so you have to cut it out and solder to the traces, you dont get any leads. this is a pain when youre working with many traces.

dont get me wrong, i'd love to see it done.

is converting levels to quadrature pulses so hard with a microcontroller? if someone were to write a pic program and post it here, it wouldnt be so hard once youre past the programming side..

damnit, that was me.. something lost me my cookies.. i bet it was norton..

if someone with pic knowledge would do a writeup and the programming, im sure it would be happily hosted here, and theres the wiki aswel

[Aidan]

There's some details needed unfortunately - like how far the joystick movement is end to end in terms of the pulse chain produced. I don't have an N64 pad (although I do have a half dead N64), so it's a bit hard...

[phreak97]

anyone close to aidan want to lend him a controller for a while? i would, but i dont have any new controllers, and im very far away. if a broken one will do (it might, just open it and move the wheels, not the stick.) then i have one you can have for free.

[NES-Luke]

I've since aquired a busted third party N64 pad, unfortunately the encoder is a "glop top" But it does use pots, and they're clearly labeled as "10k" So I'm thinking I may be able to swap the whole PCB into an official controller casing, and replce the busted analog stick assembly with that of a Playstation or something similar.

As I see it, if the buttons all line up, the casing swap should be a non-issue. and if the pots are also 10k on the PS stick, or can be swapped to be 10k, it should be fairly painless. may look a bit messy, depending on how things fit, but it SHOULD work.

[Vertigo]

Sorry, I know the original topic is a couple of months old now but you really don't need to buy another stick when your old one gets cranky. I had a black controller that the stick was really stiff, squeaky and crunchy on and made accurate aiming in Goldeneye a real pain, took it apart on sunday night while watching tv (it's so easy even I can do it while doing something else), gave it a good clean to get rid of all the dust and shite encrusted in there, gave it a wipe around the octagonal gate on the controller top itself and now the stick's good as new, just the same as another pad I have that barely got used.
Just do that.
Besides, give you a clue: PlayStation analogues are shit.

[NES-Luke]

Sorry, I know the original topic is a couple of months old now but you really don't need to buy another stick when your old one gets cranky. I had a black controller that the stick was really stiff, squeaky and crunchy on and made accurate aiming in Goldeneye a real pain, took it apart on sunday night while watching tv (it's so easy even I can do it while doing something else), gave it a good clean to get rid of all the dust and shite encrusted in there, gave it a wipe around the octagonal gate on the controller top itself and now the stick's good as new, just the same as another pad I have that barely got used.
Just do that.
Besides, give you a clue: PlayStation analogues are shit.

Cleaning is all well and good, but if there's no plastic there to keep the stick upright and allow full movement, cleaning isn't going to fix it. Believe me, I tried.

[phreak97]

Sorry, I know the original topic is a couple of months old now but you really don't need to buy another stick when your old one gets cranky. I had a black controller that the stick was really stiff, squeaky and crunchy on and made accurate aiming in Goldeneye a real pain, took it apart on sunday night while watching tv (it's so easy even I can do it while doing something else), gave it a good clean to get rid of all the dust and shite encrusted in there, gave it a wipe around the octagonal gate on the controller top itself and now the stick's good as new, just the same as another pad I have that barely got used.
Just do that.
Besides, give you a clue: PlayStation analogues are shit.

Cleaning is all well and good, but if there's no plastic there to keep the stick upright and allow full movement, cleaning isn't going to fix it. Believe me, I tried.

yeah, me too.. i have two controllers which are ~90% dead zone, meaning you can tell the n64 youre holding it 10% in any direction by pushing as hard as you can into an edge. your stiff stick wasnt from heavy usage, you most likely spilled some crap in there. with both those controlelrs if you hold the controller on its side the stick sits roughly a millimeter away from the octagonal surrounding. theyre fucked. you can walk slowly in zelda. thats all.

[NES-Luke]

I must have forgotten to mention the adapter I found...

One end is a female Playstation controller port, the other is a male N64 plug. I saw it in the store and got all excited, so I bought it.

of course it didn't work, and today I ripped it open to see if there was some form of re-encoder chip in there or something... foolishly enough, it's a direct cable adapter, no encoder, no anything. It just runs the 3 pins from the N64 to the three centre pins on the PS.

Does anyone have any idea what this adapter was SUPPOSED to do?