Starting a game site...

[NFG]

It's stupid.  It won't fly, it won't last, there's no money in it, and no one's going to give us games.

But we want to do it, don't we?  For reasons bizarre we want to chain ourselves to this wheel again and again, keep trying, have a home for our musings, an audience for our prattle.

Or at least I do.  I think I's a good riter.  Or at least I can be, on occasion, less of a sucky writer than many others.  As is often done in the sandbox a few of us are considering creating yet another games site.

For the sake of posterity, here's some snippets of the discussions involved, and my thoughts on the issue (those will be first, 'cause I intend to run the place and I'm more important because of my ego).

Personally I believe there's room for another game site written by intelligent, passionate people who are able to not only write literate prose about games, but also are able to include actual facts.  Cross references and historical similarities.  Too many game sites are written by people who love games and can speak english moderately well.  That's not, IMHO, enough.

You gots to know your shit.

What I'm envisioning is a site not unlike what I've started here.  Content rich.  Updated on a schedule, not haphazardly whenever someone's gotten around to uploading a document.  Old games, new games.  Reviews, commentary.  Analysis.

That's what I want.  Here's some of the things discussed.  As always a steady flow of quality content is the paramount concern.

<bloodf> screenshots might be a problem - they always are though
<DJH> pictures are for the illiterate.

Not necessarily always, maybe...

<bloodf> a tech questions section would be good, pick some good ones each time

<corpsicle> neo : you need to call it GASM

<bloodf> i mean one with letters pages and stuff.  a tech questions section would be good, pick some good ones each time.   theres pretty much nothing i dont know about jamma games now.

<jef_> constant content is key to keeping the mag going, I think that's the toughest part.

<bloodf> its not enough to say "it sucks but i like it", in both cases there should be quantifying reasons
<jef_> man, you guys are asking alot of your average reviewer...

<haohmaru>whoever makes an online zine needs to be seriously committed.

<DJH> and doubly so, since I agree with neo: a brutal editor is critical to maintaining quality.  which will inevitably alienate some of the potential contributors.
<jef_> Editors NEED to be brutal, isn't that their job?

<jef_> You need to plan like 2-3 mags in advance, so any delays can be absorbed more easily.

<bloodf> freebie policy then - use them for competitions
<bloodf> or burn them
<jef_> Sell them on ebay to pay for bandwidth

[exodus]

my thoughts -
there's a glut right now.   Unless you're damn sure you have the best writers on the internet, it seems foolish to start a new site where the only new thing is tech tech stuff.  You've already got a perfectly good tech site, and a perfectly good games site.

So you're talking about an online mag?  Like a monthly thing?  Tokidoki journal does that too...

Seriously, unless you've got a solid group of fantastic writers who you know will come through, it's sort of a fantasy.

But hey...whatever you want to do, eh?

[edit] that is to say - are you going to do anyting significantly different, or just refine the current news/reviews/features averageness that permeates the net?

[Gord]

I'd like to see Next Generation reborn.  Only better.

Take the news, and explain what it means.  Take history, and explain the future.  That sort of thing.

And my favorite, interviews.  Many interviews.  Interviews that are actually intelligent like what Next Gen used to have, and not just feel-good-but-say-nothing-interesting interviews.

That way everything goes in a new diection instead of rehashing what every other site already does.

[NFG]

that is to say - are you going to do anyting significantly different, or just refine the current news/reviews/features averageness that permeates the net?

Well that's the key, isn't it?  That's what this thread was, to discuss the whole idea, and determine if there's room or even a need.  

There IS a glut, and the large majority is the same old shit: press releases, reviews of new releases, and fanboy bullshit.  Basically our expectations are practically zero: A unified page to get our soapbox on, with no expectation of payment beyond the adulations of the masses and babes by the truckload.

Or at least that's how I looked at it.

And yes, there's a long way to go to beat some of the slobbering fanboys spouting the usual crap, but we're scrappy.

Naturally only one article will end up written and the idea will die the usual death from lack of participation, but it's PLANNING the castle that's fun, no?  

L.

[Gord]

I find it odd that no one really does interviews.  I used to talk to people all the time to ask questions and generally find out what was really going on.  Though I have a name bonus and most people really want to meet me, so perhaps my experience with interviews is bias.  Still informative though.

But things like my essays on what the GameCube and Xbox market realities I wrote two years ago have been read in the millions of times, not including reposts on other forums.  

Intelligent essays will get read.  The people want them.

[exodus]

Yeah...well I think that's the site everyone wants to make.  I'm close enough to it for my own comfort.  And by the way, I've got lots of interviews ^_^

Do I think there are sites extant that meet your criteria?  Yes, I do actually, and a fair number of them.  This is why my angle was alternative journalism - not just dealing with crap that others don't talk about, but different writing styles, formats, and dare I say, paradigms.

There's just too much stuff out there for anyone to know of all of them.  Though admittedly, a lot of these folks are off on their own, doing their own thing.  But the coverage is there, the intellect is there, it's just not all centralized.  But I don't think it needs to be, either.

And - reviewing new releases is a good thing.  I think that reviewing old crap is overrated.  People like to hide behind that, saying that they're you know...rebelling against the norm and shit.  But most sites around have old games reviewed, because they're just some kids talking about the games they already own.  Something about the new experience can inspire different writing than that which is experienced largely in hindsight.

[NFG]

I'm close enough to it for my own comfort.

Your site is awesome, it makes me very jealous.  One of the main reasons I want to flesh out this idea first is that I honestly don't think I could top your site.  I don't have the dedication or the content or, it seems, the number of qualified contributors that you do.  That angers me, and I want you to know I'm gonna kick your ass next time you're in Japan.

it's just not all centralized. But I don't think it needs to be, either.

I do.  I think there's too much self-published quality content out there, and it's being ignored.  A primary goal of mine with this project, should it ever start rolling, is precisely that: A hub, a network, a (dare I say it) portal to quality content.  Too many sites have more rough cuts than gems, and I think there's a serious need on the internet for a site that has ONLY quality content.  Yours is close.  A few articles make me go "WTF?  Slow news day or what?"but by and large, as I say, you make me thrash about in a jealous rage.

reviewing new releases is a good thing. I think that reviewing old crap is overrated. People like to hide behind that, saying that they're you know...rebelling against the norm and shit.

This is a phenomenally good point.  This is a great point.  Your point is good, and it's not bad either.  One lesson I always knew but had reinforced with GameGo is that old content is nice, but the new stuff is what drives.  I believe old content has a real value - hindsight is, as they say, 20/20.  

There's also a real value in retrospective, and I think there's definitely value in opening people's eyes to things they've missed.  The HiSaturn is old, the Neo Geo is old, and Battle Balls is old, but there's a lot of interest still in real focused information on these things.  A site that can balance the old and new, with seriously quality content, and an ability to place new games in their historical context...  That's something worth pursuing.

Q. How many video game 'journalists' have been playing games since Space Invaders?
A. Not enough.

How can you trust someone to give you accurate info on games if they spent their formative years being a console advocate for the NES?  

Losing... focus...  Must...stop!!

[exodus]

yeah, one thing about the content on my site is that not everyone came with us in the evolution...some of the guys are still stuck in the normal mindset - and I don't want to drop them just because of that.  It's a touchy situation.

Plus sometimes we're too sleepy to be smart.  

I think there's too much self-published quality content out there, and it's being ignored. A primary goal of mine with this project, should it ever start rolling, is precisely that: A hub, a network, a (dare I say it) portal to quality content.

Yeah...I do agree actually.  That's sort of why I started thinking about the magazine thingy.  The other tough part is getting noticed enough to make a difference.  You need some 'names' attatched in order to create a buzz, or else you wind up with fifty viewers or something.  That sucks of course...but it's true.

There's also a real value in retrospective, and I think there's definitely value in opening people's eyes to things they've missed.

Yeah, definitely.  But nowadays it's a tough road to forge, outside of obsolete hardware.  Nearly everything is emulated and available to people...
That can be good or bad - it might inspire people to look up the game you're discussing, etc.  Or they might just think...Doggyun??  I played that shize in MAME already, who cares?

I'm just saying this in terms of catching people's interest.  I personally think it's cool, because I don't emulate systems I don't own.  But others...

Q. How many video game 'journalists' have been playing games since Space Invaders?
A. Not enough.

yeah, totally.  I'm buying that retrospective release thingy when it comes out on PS2.  gogogo!
We're in the unique position where we've been able to play games nearly our entire lives.  They've been around since before I was even born...so we're the new breed.  We should have something different to say.

Did I tell you I'm inteviewing Arnie Katz, Bill Kunkel and Joyce Worley of EGM path-forging fame?  Well I am.  And it's going to rock, friend.  Because this is the stuff I'm going to bring up with them.

Yeah, so the most difficult thing is finding the audience of course.  And convincing these diamonds in the rough to affiliate with you.  And...keeping it going.  But if you can, it could be a pretty durn good thing.

Just make sure you keep the writing fresh man.  That's my complaint with everybody.

And don't read the preview I'm about to put up, because it makes me look like a slight hypocrite.

[NFG]

The path is obvious.  You should throw in with me.  I've got big ...  uh, <thinks>  balls.  No, wait.  <reads back> names!  Yeah!  

Oh, no, wait, those are egos.

OK, I've got nothing, but if you join up I'll have you!  

[Guest_exodus]

give up everything I've worked for and join you as an underling??  SOUNDS BRILLIANT!

WHERE DO I SIGN?

because I want to sign right now ^_^

[Millartime]

I've thought about starting an ambitious online gaming site (such as what's been mentioned here) for quite some time. The main reason that I'll never do it is because I can't justify putting that much effort into something like that unless it puts food on my table and games on my shelves. And I refuse to sacrifice the remainder of my spare time (which is taken up with going out with friends, gym, playing games, listening to music etc.) for such an endeavor.

Another reason is that as each year passes there are less and less games that I'm REALLY passionate about. I'm all for covering the classic / collectable stuff but that only gets you so far.

It's also hard to find people that know their shit and know how to write well. This is evident from all the bullshit fanboy sites out there.

In the end, I've somewhat satisfied my desire to create an online project with my own site, Millartime.com. It offers a portal to unique / awesome gaming sites (such as this one) along with a marketplace directory for the best places to buy games. It offers some of my opinions and a couple of unique features as well.

So it's safe to say, given my current priorities in life, I'd be setting myself up for a fall if I committed to anything more than what I'm doing now.

I'm sure many of you can relate.  

[NFG]

give up everything I've worked for and join you as an underling?? SOUNDS BRILLIANT!
WHERE DO I SIGN?  because I want to sign right now

Call me crazy, but I'm kind of thinking this might be at least partially sarcastic.

[Haohmaru]

I'm involved with a few online sites (besides my own, smartasss) and I'd have to say that I would have to drop those in order to start something fresh and that wouldn't be easy, to start all over *again*.

But...

It's always intrigued me - GameGO! should be evidence enough of that. It would have to be database driven, have excellent moderated and busy forums, have much information about orphaned platforms and games that he/she/it might not have ever heard of or seen a review about.

Equally, you have to have a name (takes time) to get software from developers, who are tightening their grip even more around their "review" copies of software. Current reviews and previews are very important to the survival and, more importantly, the poplularity of a site.

Reviving GameGO! was suggested to me about 8 months ago by a site that probably could've supported it. I passed because it didn't seem like it would be "serious" enough, for lack of a better term.

I'm into it, but only if it's done the right way from the beginning.

[Gord]

The other tough part is getting noticed enough to make a difference.  You need some 'names' attatched in order to create a buzz, or else you wind up with fifty viewers or something.  That sucks of course...but it's true.

If only we knew someone who runs a popular site that gets tens of thousands of visitors a week.  Someone with a website already known throughout the entire gaming industry and that would drawn tens of thousands to the new gaming site.   If only we could find just one such person, all our problems would be solved...

[Guest_exodus]

??

[NFG]

He's talking about himself, exodus (BTW: If you sign in you won't be Guest_Exodus).  Gord = TheGord, a lazy goodfornothing I've known for a long, long time.

He's very modest.

[Gord]

Gord = TheGord, a lazy goodfornothing I've known for a long, long time.

Mom?

He's very modest.

Exceptionally brilliant too, I might add.

Though, in all seriousness, I've been putting a fair bit of thought into this project.  I think it could fly since you already know enough people who can contribute to make it go.

Let's break down what we need:

1 - Publiciticy
2 - PR
3 - Excellent Design
4 - News content
5 - Original content
6 - Cash Income

1.  Publicity.  This is the easiest.  Between the traffic Lawrence already gets to his GameSX site and myself, we've got tens of thousands of people right there who at the very least will check in once.  A slick presentation coupled with good content will compliment the image we have of being bright fellows.  That means respect and it just gets far easier to deal with everyone.  PR people will know of us, so they will spend more time with us.  Developers will know of us, so it will be easier to get interviews and whatnot.  

We are gifted with having the publicity before the product.

2.  PR.   If we namedrop my name of this project, instant credability until the site is known well enough that one can phone up X at Y and say "Hey, this is Z from L's gamesite of the future" without the PR person going "WOW!  Another website written by someone living his his parent's basement with eight readers wanting a free game or to waste my time".  As such, getting interviews and promo-product should be fairly easy.  As long as the company knows their product will get a fair review and some publicity regardless, they'll happily send out everything we ask for.  Review product is exceptionally cheaper than buying advertising.

That said, some companies will be exceptionally pissy over negative reviews if they feel the site is an attack site.  Elitist sites that say "Every game is a bad game" and that every game ten years ago was better will not get much co-operation.  If you treat the people in PR like real people and actually try running stories by them before publishing them, they will work with you forever.

3.  Excellent design.  Lawrence has that down pretty damn good.  Coming up with a clean format will be an obstacle easily overcome.

4.  News content.  In theory, the news will come to us.  With a popular site, people will email the news.  Or just fleece a popular forum for news like most other site does.   I like how Exodus's site just links to interesting stories instead of GameSpot's link to every single press release ever.  

Remember Next-Gen Online?  That was run by two guys with zero help from the magazine.  They got no support at all.  No games, no editorial help, nothing.  But because they were liked and not a shapeless corporate machine, people emailed them all the news from everywhere.  That would be the end goal we would want.

5. Original content.  This is the most important part that is needed to separate from the masses.   There are a billion fan sites already out there relisting the days news they read on other sites, so if you read one you've read them all.  Original content takes time.  Be it overseas crap, interviews, or huge explanation on how things work.  I had thought of doing a dedicated site of "The Word of Gord" that would be nothing but essays much like the three already on my site, but I ran out of time.  Those three essays have been read millions of times.  People will read intelligent essays.

Exodus's site is a mixxed bag in this regard.  Some things like the GP32 sum up is good.  Direct, big, and tells me what I want to know.  Sadly, most of the features are washed out by too much "blog noise" contained within.  I don't care how they got the store or that they saved a nickel on a gallon of gas to get there by using a coupon.  I don't care that there was six people in the store and that the price tag was on the left side of the box.  I don't care their neighbor has a lovely dog and that their sofa is blue.  (that was a dramatic recreation).  Please don't take this as an attack, but just an observation.  The actual foundation of the messages are fine, just the delivery needs less "blog noise".  

I do however especially like the custom graphic headers over each page on Insert Credit though.

Back to the L. project.  A site that can deliver multiple essays/full length a week (dare I say one day?) will have traffic unlike the world has ever seen because no one does that anymore.

Of note: Interviews should be done early Next Gen style.  Actual revisiting of things said before, reality checks, and basically a real discussion rather than a multi-page advertisement.  

6.  Cash income.  Turning traffic into dollars.  In theory if we have the traffic, we could solicite advertising.  I suspect that advertising will have to come after the site has traffic proven.  If everyone says "oh, L's site is great" and every company has heard of it, I suspect they will be far more receptive to paying money to advertise than if we ask while they think it's some hack site with no traffic.

7.  Other.   I would vote in favor of a closed forum.  Make it so all can read, but the only people who can post have either:
 1. Worked in the industry and we like.  
 2. Submitted an original essay worthy of publication.
 3. Paid money (thus if one acts retarded will be banned and lose their money, so good behavior is encouraged).
 4. Demonstrate that they are not retarded and are worthy of a free pass.

Game forums are flamewar magnets.  By having such rules, we could have a forum that intelligent people would want to post in and keeps the millions upon millions of people who would pollute the forum with noise out.  If we can pull off a news site that is intelligent and respected, people in the industry will want to be a part of it.

Sadly I banged this off in about 10 minutes before I head off to work, so I apologize for grammar mistakes and unclear concepts I may have typed.

In conclusion, we have the traffic.  We have the talent.  We have the writers.  We can make this work.

Assuming we have L., myself, and Exodus on board, how many others can we expect to help lay the foundation to what will be Next Generation Online 2.0?

[Guest]

If only we could find just one such person, all our problems would be solved...

Nah, all we need is good content, a good URL, a good site design. Fuck the names - we've got a few anyway (not the 10,000/week level though). Between Neo's sites and my sites, I think we could draw enough folk to at least get started. If we did a halfway decent job with further support from many that we know, I think it would grow.

[Haohmaru]

Crap, not only did I not read your post before posting, I also posted as a guest. SFNewbie.

Anyway, I'm interested, I have a name, have some PR contacts, etc...
I'm unfamiliar with "Gord's" site, please enlighten me - I don't see it in your profile either.

I see the biggest problems for the site being:

1.) Developing any kind of relevant cash flow
2.) Developing the right kind of relationships with the right kind of developers
3.) Getting enough content to get the thing going.
4.) Contributing enough (all of us) without neglecting all of the other crap that we do (gamesx, dchistory, nfg, etc...)
5.) Name

[NFG]

http://www.ActsOfGord.com

Little known fact: I wrote, but am not credited for, the intro on the mainpage.

[Gord]

Fuck the names - we've got a few anyway (not the 10,000/week level though).

Last week I had over 30K distinct IPs visit my site, and I haven't even done an update in months.  When I actually do a big update, the server actually hits a limit at around 60,000 people a week.  

The comic I tossed up in June has already had 50,000+ distinct IP views in three weeks.   I would wager that I could funnel an equal amount of traffic to L.'s site if we get all this together.

Trust me when I say that the traffic isn't going to be a problem.

If we did a halfway decent job with further support from many that we know, I think it would grow.

Take what we're doing and now and throw it under one roof and organize it is Lawrence's grand plan.  I believe it is workable, so I'll sign up.

[Haohmaru]

Actually, I think my point was that traffic was something that I wasn't really concerned about. =)

In any event, if it's done right (as with everything else in this world) it'll probably succeed.

[bloodflowers]

A few times people have mentioned cash flow.

Er - why?

When I suggested this idea on IRC, the intent was not to make any money.  If we can't find free hosting (while actually we probably can), I'd be more than happy to contribute to the space rental.  Anyone who believes in what we wanted to do will feel the same way.  Adverts are hideous things, and sites are better left untainted wherever possible.  This isn't a commercial endeavor.

Also with regards to working with companies - a double edged sword.  Getting friendly with developers for some interviews might be interesting, but core content is always going to be well informed and well /written/ reviews of games, new and old.  I would suggest that since the kind of relevant people we'd have on staff naturally have a high games exposure anyway, that we should only ever be covering software we bought in end form, and not accepting any freebies of any kind.  You need to have the freedom to stamp on games without regard as to how the company feels about it.  Feel a game is possibly the worst travesty ever to grace the system?  Tell it like it is.  This is a prime fault with most real magazines, and their ties to producers mean they have to walk a balance between honesty and the need not to piss off companies.  End users have no such issues.

[exodus]

Bloodflowers - I agree with you about the advertisements.

But while the pitfall of pandering to companies you get free games from is very prevalent on the web (fan based, especially), print magazines' reviews suck for different reasons.

They do *not* have to pander.  Say you're gamepro, #1 or #2 magazine, depending on who you ask.  If...let's say Agetec sends you a shitty game, and you review it accordingly, are they going to stop sending you review product?  Not at all.  They want their game out there, and if they make a stink about it *themselves*, they run the risk of insulting the magazine, thus destroying their free publicity.

Realize that magazines are truly free advertisement.  Often just the fact that the name of the game gets out is enough for some companies.  I mean...think what would happen if Acclaim got pissed every time someone gave them a poor review?

Just something to think about.

[Haohmaru]

Sorry, but in the real world companies CAN and DO get upset with poor reviews of their products. Especially if they are sending you preview betas or Works in Progress, so to speak. It's a fine line to walk, and honestly, it's generally goes without saying that the reviewing sites need the material more than the publishers need bad press.

Sad, but true. I've been in the middle of it and there's no dancing around it.

[NFG]

This would appear to me to be a bit of a power struggle.  Really large magazines are probably a lot more free with their ability to say what they think, 'cause all the companies need massive press.  Smaller magazines most likely have to play nice or shut up.  I think when Nintendo power said "You'll only see the good games in our pages, if a game is bad we simply won't cover it" they were right on the money for a lot of mags.

[exodus]

yeah, that's basically what I think as well.

But the way I see it, you start out getting the free stuff.  If they get pissed at a poor review and you lose them, so be it.  You can go back to buying the products.  But there's no reason you can't speak your mind till then, and still get the games for free.

One other thing - I think that oft-times indy websites will be easier on games they get for free simply because they didn't have to pay for them.  So they don't have that feeling of wanting their money back.

And in fact, I got $30 credit for Galerians: Ash, so...it's like Sammy sent me $30 in the mail in exchange for five hours of annoyance.  That may have altered my judgement a bit, who knows.

[Haohmaru]

So, er, are we done talking about this?

[NFG]

No, we moved on to the mailing list, which some of us are content to ignore <Poke>.

[Haohmaru]

But, but, I'm trying to pad my post count because I just can't wait to see what comes after "member".  :lol:  

[exodus]

beat my post count will you?  We'll see about that, mr 13 posts.

[Haohmaru]

I wish I could beat that post count, but I'm too busy writing this article for "inert edit" or something like that.

[exodus]

hehe...when we had about three weeks of downtime (crippled the reader base, wheee!), I kept referring to it as 'inert credit'.  Because that's what it was.

looking forward to reading your piece ^_^