NES Video options

[D-Lite]

OK, what the hell.

I can't find any info on video output options for the regular old toaster style NES decks.  No RGB, no S-Video.

Help?

No, not info on the top loader, nor the SNES.  My 18 month old found those already.

[Endymion]

It's because it seems that the only place RGB exists in the NES is inside the video chip, which pretty much makes tapping it is impossible.

[Moosmann]

You can swap the PPU from the Famicom Titler or Playchoice 10 Arcade PCB to get RGB on a AV-Famicom or US-NES.

At the moment, I still received no answer from Japan, so which I describe here the same problem:

I bought some Playchoice/Unisystem PPUs (RP2C03B) last year. The PPUs works all great without any problem on my AV-Famicom. On my (frontloader) US NES, only Life Force/Salamander from Konami have graphic glitches. I modified 2 another US Consoles, on one, all games have graphic glitches, other on US Console some games have graphic glitches. If I test the 2 modified US PCBs with the normal Video PPU RP2C02 or the (palette incompatible) VS. Hogans Alley PPU RP2C04-0001 I never have this problem. I also connect the Pin 22 to 5V (like from the famicom reset) without a better solution.

I cannot understand why :-(((

Bye Markus

[atom]

D-Lite i thought you were a reguluar user, this has been covered so many times before. The NES PPU doesnt put out anything but composite, it sucks! If you destroy a rare arcade PPU to do this to your nes, thats your decision. But I think the cost greatly outweighs the benefits of RGB. Just use an emulator! Thats my reccomendation.

[D-Lite]

D-Lite i thought you were a reguluar user, this has been covered so many times before. The NES PPU doesnt put out anything but composite, it sucks! If you destroy a rare arcade PPU to do this to your nes, thats your decision. But I think the cost greatly outweighs the benefits of RGB. Just use an emulator! Thats my reccomendation.

Yep, regular for the most part these days, but was off and on for a while.

And the Search feature is largely crap on the forums.

Just wanted some clarification on the topic as there is scant info out there for the NES.

[Scan]

D-Lite i thought you were a reguluar user, this has been covered so many times before. The NES PPU doesnt put out anything but composite, it sucks! If you destroy a rare arcade PPU to do this to your nes, thats your decision. But I think the cost greatly outweighs the benefits of RGB. Just use an emulator! Thats my reccomendation.

Yep, regular for the most part these days, but was off and on for a while.

And the Search feature is largely crap on the forums.

Just wanted some clarification on the topic as there is scant info out there for the NES.

Doesn't the "Nes on a Chip" output  RGB without too much trouble?

D-lite, how is the Keene encoder working out for you?  

[School_Atom]

Hmm, thats a good question, the only problem is there are several different brands of "NES ON A CHIP". The one that I have was bought from QVC! If they simply have the same PPU that the NES has, then no it wouldnt, but its possible they use different chips with the same functionality.

[Martin]

rip a chip from another console cnd shove it in.  

[Scan]

Hmm, thats a good question, the only problem is there are several different brands of "NES ON A CHIP". The one that I have was bought from QVC! If they simply have the same PPU that the NES has, then no it wouldnt, but its possible they use different chips with the same functionality.

Right however, I've got a vague memory of a famicom clone that *definitely* output RGB. I'll see if I can remember where I saw it and or at least what it looks like    

[benzaldehyde]

Well, in my renewed sense of tinkering today, I found what was up with the glitching on my mod. I was having graphical glitches with games here and there, and couldn't figure out why. I had a hunch, and so made an adapter to emulate the top-loading mechanism of an NES2 (which hasn't any trouble with success). Doing this cleared up the problem almost completely on every glitchy game. The problem now is that the card edge slot has no way of stabilizing the cart, so it's even harder to get games to work with this over the old "toaster" build. :lol:

Could proper contact be the culprit for our glitch issues? Maybe the NES2 really is the best candidate for this mod? Any thoughts (looks to Moosmann)?

[atom]

Yeah, you can easily repair that toaster connector! Just pull it out and lift up all the pins with a small screwdriver or something. Just dont pull them up too far or your game wont even need to be pushed down to run.

[Guest]

Well, the issue isn't repair (though I've done my share of those). For some reason, the toaster configuration just doesn't achieve proper contact for glitch-free play. Though now that you say it, maybe I could maul the connector in there to get good contact. It's crazy enough to work.

But then, I'd feel like an idiot for soldering ~300 points. :lol:

[benzaldehyde]

Damnit! That was me.

For some reason, my adapter doesn't play games as reliably as the toaster config. When it does play them, though, the picture is perfect. Blarg! If only I could have the best of both worlds.

...

*Goes to eBay and searches for NES2.*

*Dies.*

[Moosmann]

The pinconnector is not the problem, because I had tested much NEW ONE connectors and with the RP2C02 Chip all games works fine.

I suspect, the difference RAM-Chips is the problem (see Datasheet from PC10 Arcade PCB).

Bye Markus

[benzaldehyde]

I don't know about that. I'm not meaning to contradict anyone here, but I've found this to be the case in my situation. With my modded NES and a new toaster style connector, I get massive glitching. With an adapter (essentially another toaster style pin connector with every pin soldered to a cut-up IDE cable, which is then soldered to a project board-bound 72-pin card edge connector which fits NES games), the glitches disappear, but without additional hardware to physically stabilize the cart, the game is very unstable in play.

I'll take some pictures later. But fair warning, my camera sucks. :lol:

[Aidan]

Sounds like signal integrity or timing problems to be honest. Adding a bit of cable increases the inductance and flight time of the signals. If that is the case, then you might find adding a resistor line with each of the signal connector could help to increase the flight time, and thus help fix the issue. Alternatively (but less of a good idea) you might be able to add a small capacitor on each line to increase the capacitance and hence slow signal propagation.

Now, there is no promises here, as no-one has actually taken a look at the signals through a scope or logic analyser to see what is really wrong!

[Moosmann]

@ benzaldehyde:
Can you tell me, how exactly labled the S-Ram Chips in your NES ?

The datasheet from the PC10 S-Ram Chips:
connecto to CPU: 2K TMM 2115BP-15
connect to PPU: 4K 6116 200ns

The Result from 3 modified US-Consoles:

The Chips in my >working< US-NES with RGB PPU:
CPU: BR 6116-100
PPU: HY 6116AP-12 (-->the same like PC10 ?)

Half games works/half rom them with glitching:
CPU: LH5216A-10L
PPU: LH5216A-10L

All games have massive gliching:
CPU: GM76C28-10
PPU: GM76C28-10

The SRam for the PPU is U4, for the CPU U1 (labled US Console)

@Aidan: Thanks for the info

Bye Markus

[atom]

Did you try taking the pcb out of the cart and sticking it in your makeshift connector? That would take care of any instability issues.

Here is how id make my connector if i were to do that:
The NES mobo has an edge connector on the end of it. SOOOOO...
Use a female edge connector soldered directly (with short wires) to another female to accept the cartridge. You could face it up, but that would require the lid being off. You could face it the same direction (out), and modify the spring loader to accept the new angle.

Or, perhaps by some acrylic and make a new, uglier, square case.

Or just buy an nes2 like you mentioned.





I love it when these threads get way off topic.

[Moosmann]

@Aidan:
Very interesting....
I have a gamekey adaptor and with this on my near all working NES (the first from my list, 2 topics before) Life Force works fine without glitches.

On the other NES (1/2 games works good), it fixed the glitches from Megaman 2, but not from Life Force

All lines within the adaptor have around 0,8 Ohm.

I don`t understand, the lines in a small AV-Famicom are much shorter as in a US-NES and I never have any problems on a AV-Famicom.

And again: With the same 72P connector and the original video PPU, all games works great (not a problem from a old connector)

Bye Markus

[Aidan]

I'm assuming that the PPU gets involved in addressing the cart directly at some point here - I don't have a good grasp on the NES design.

It sounds like the Playchoice/Unisystem PPU has slightly different timing requirements, and may not be getting on or off the memory bus when it should be. Adding the IDE cable as an extension seems shift that timing just enough that the Playchoice/Unisystem PPU has no problems reading data off the bus, which is why I made that suggestion.

[Moosmann]

NEWS FOR TOASTER US NES:

I compared the datasheet from the old Famicom, Playchoice10 PCB and the old US-NES. I found out, a 68 pF condensator from PPU Pin 24 and S-Ram /OE Pin 20 are connect parallel to ground. This condensator is not present on a toaster US NES.

The additional 68 pF are needed ONLY for the old US-NES, not for the japanese Famicoms
http://markus.brandel.bei.t-online.de/NES-...mpatibility.bmp

All games works great without any graphic glitchen on all S-Ram or Mainboard revisions, no long flat cable are needed.

Bye Markus

[Dr.Wily]

where can i find PC10PPU for my NES ?

is it working whith PAL NES ?

thank !

[atom]

Moosman are you saying this improves cart reliabilty?
I will test this out, add it to my site and give you credit. Will a capacitor work?

[Moosmann]

@ Dr. Wily:
www.eBay.com some broken PC10 PCBs have still working PPUs. Don`t touch the Pins from the Chip with the fingers, because its a old unprotected Chip (...ESD, Antistatic carefull handling).

It works only on NTSC Console because PAL-NES have difference PPU, CPU and Crystal.

@ Atom:
Yes, you need ONLY the 68 pF capacitor to fix the problem on a frontloader USA NES. You don`t need the capacitor for the famicoms (because they has already them from factory production) or >maybe< NES2 (?) (...i never modified a NES2). I make a photo in 1-2 days.

Bye Markus

[atom]

In your pic is that the standard US NES PPU or is that a Playchoice PPU? I couldn't help but notice you have RGB pins in your diagram...

[Moosmann]

My words are not good enough

You need the capacitor ONLY for the RGB Mod (Playchoice PPU in a US-NES) to make the PC10 PPU >us_nes< compatibel (all games works without graphic glitches).

The capacitor don`t replace old wear 72 Pin Connector to run cartridges better.

The pic is from the PC10 PPU, because the PC10 PPU have RGB and Sync instead Video from the normal NES PPU.

Bye Markus

[atom]

Oh! I misunderstood what you were telling me.

[Rockard]

Hmm..

As I understands it, above matters only apply to the toploader NES.


but, I have modified an original US-NES with the playchoicechip. Anyway,
most games work perfectly, but some still have glitches.

As these thread seem to imply, is it possible to make it TOTALLY glitch-free?

Currently, these games have weird graphical artifacts and works in pal-console.
(yes, my connector is new and my games are clean) Ntsc if not noted:
* Immortal - starts up, music is heard, but screen is just white.
* Legendary Wings - Works - garbled graphics - shows fine on my pal console
* PAL Metroid - Works - garbled graphics
* PAL Kid Icarus - Works - Small blinking lines all over the place
* Burai Figher - works - sprites are a bit unstable, sprites flashes by at wrong x-cordinate at times.


Are there some other solderings that may need to be made?
Moosmann, was this cpu-ppu-combination-compability-thing only about the top loader?

Thanks for any help.

[Moosmann]

Again, again, again
If you have some glitches like this http://markus.brandel.bei.t-online.de/NES-...icglitches1.JPG with Playchoice Chip into a >old< US NES, you need the condensator:

http://markus.brandel.bei.t-online.de/NES-...mpatibility.bmp

All Games works glitch free :-))

ONLY the oldstyle frontloader/toaster NES need the condensator, NOT the japanese AV-Famicom. I don`t know, if the newer US toploader need the condensator.

Bye Markus

[Guest]

Ah.. that's just totally great . Thanks a lot!

I'm going to add some pots so I can adjust the colorvalues also.. then I have the perfect rgb-nes! Weeeee! *feel geeky*

Moos, what's that fun zeldabox-pic I found at your webspace?
Wasn't the recieved box as MINT as described on ebay?


Hooplaaa! Nes-hack-madness underway!

[Rockard]

opppsss... that was me..  

[Moosmann]

:-)Yes, the Box from Zelda ist not mint :-)))

OK, a photo can answer all questions. And please let me know when it works

http://markus.brandel.bei.t-online.de/NES-US-68pF.bmp

Bye Markus

[Rockard]

MOD DONE!

Finally.

At first, I tried Legendary Wing. Bleerrr... the grapix was the SAME .
I pulled the cassette a bit, and voila! Now its perfect!

My connector is new, so. Well.. I don't know why it didn't work the first time around. Maybe it just needed to adjust to the new component..

I tried the other games, and now they works completely OK! =)
Except for that dang "Immortal".. it still only displays whiteness
with music going in the background.. weird.

Now.. next up is adding some "pots" to the rgbcolours output!

And well.. a 50/60hz switch would the the dream, or some way to slow those PAL games down.. but I guess that will never work.

Must... finish... the.. ULTIMATE NINTENDO! =)

[Moosmann]

Aaaaah, that`s nice

I got a Info from km (he sell very good RGB Amplifier for AV-Famicoms) that some games are incompatible with the RGB PPUs.

Is Importal a PAL Game ?

And Totally Rad from Jaleco is the only game i know, which works incorrect with RGB PPUs (First Level background is black instead of white).

At the moment I will made a little better colorbooster.
Please send me an Email or PM.

Bye Markus