I've been working on doing the RGB NES mod on and off for quite a while now. Anyways, I finally got to the point where I try to hook it up to my TV. So I get everything plugged in and turned on, but all I get a nice black screen. Sometimes after I leave it on for a little bit the screen will turn gray and start flickering. I turn it off after that happens because I don't know what's going on.
What I'm trying to figure out now is how to diagnose the problem.
First, some info about what I've done so far for the mod:
1. Desoldered the original PPU from the NES
2. Soldered a 40-pin IC socket where the PPU used to be
3. Soldered wires to pins 14,15,16,and 21 (red, green, blue, and sync, respectively)
4. Took the RP2C03B chip off a Playchoice PCB and plugged it into the IC socket on the NES board
5. Connected the four wires (RGBS) to two stereo headphone jacks. The wires are just twisted on for now, but these will be soldered if I can actually get this mod working.
6. Each stereo headphone jack has a 3.5mm stereo to 2x RCA adapter plugged into it.
7. Each adapter has an RCA stereo audio cable connecting it to a RGB+composite to SCART adapter. Sync is connected to the composite video input.
8. The SCART adapter is plugged into my RGB to component transcoder. (Keene RGB2C, which I have tested on other systems and it works)
9. The output of the transcoder goes through a SCART to 3x RCA (component) adapter then into my TV.
Now, here is what I've tried so far to troubleshoot:
1. Verified the NES power light is not flashing, so it should have a good connection to the cart.
2. Checked the connections of my 4 wires. I actually tested these connections at the ends of the RCA cables where they plug into the SCART adapter. The way I tested these connections was by setting my multimeter to measure resistance. I touched one probe to the tip of the RCA cable and the other probe to the NES motherboard. All four showed a very low resistance--sync was about 5 Ohms; red, green, and blue were about 0.7 Ohms.
3. Checked the connections on the PPU chip to the board using the same technique. I touched one probe to the pin on the chip itself (not the socket) and touched the other probe to the motherboard.
Is there a way I can test the PPU chip itself to see if it might be dead? I'm running out of ideas for things to try. Thanks in advance.
1. Desoldered the original PPU from the NES
2. Soldered a 40-pin IC socket where the PPU used to be
You need a praecision instead a standard IC socket for a good connection.
3. Soldered wires to pins 14,15,16,and 21 (red, green, blue, and sync, respectively)
The RGB Pins should not connect from the socket to the pcb, because it is ground.
You have also ONLY lift the 3 RGB pins, not Pin 21.
Take composite sync from the yellow Video RC Socket from the HF-Modulator.
You need an amplifier for the RGB signal.
5. Connected the four wires (RGBS) to two stereo headphone jacks. The wires are just twisted on for now, but these will be soldered if I can actually get this mod working.
6. Each stereo headphone jack has a 3.5mm stereo to 2x RCA adapter plugged into it.
You need a ground connection. You also need the 68pf or 120pf capacitor for the OE/WR line.
Is there a way I can test the PPU chip itself to see if it might be dead? I'm running out of ideas for things to try. Thanks in advance.
Don`t connect the NES to the transcoder and check, if you get audio (music from the game) from the red Audio Chinch socket. If you get music, it is a signal problem, if you don`t get music, mostly the PPU is broken or a wrong PPU inmstallation (Lift RGB Pins from ground).
Post or send me photos please.
Bye Markus
Thanks for the reply, Moosmann!
QuoteYou need a praecision instead a standard IC socket for a good connection.
Here's the one I bought: http://www.cascadesurplus.com/catalog/prod...47e08156fff9910 (http://www.cascadesurplus.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/836?osCsid=5ad7b8de594e2c18347e08156fff9910)
Should this one work? I'm not actually sure what to look for, aside from the number of pins and the pin spacing.
QuoteThe RGB Pins should not connect from the socket to the pcb, because it is ground.
You have also ONLY lift the 3 RGB pins, not Pin 21.
Please bear with me as I'm not quite familiar with the terminology. When you say "lift" a pin, do you mean to bend it in such a way that it does not make contact with the PCB?
QuoteYou need an amplifier for the RGB signal.
I was kind of thinking that after reading through a couple of threads regarding the NES RGB mod. Should I be able to see anything without the amplifier? If I can at least get something without the amp, even a dim picture, I will at least know I'm on the right track.
QuoteYou need a ground connection. You also need the 68pf or 120pf capacitor for the OE/WR line.
I was wondering about the ground connection. Where should ground be connected to? I had tried connecting it to the RF shield, but I have no idea if that is a good place. Also, I'm not sure what OE or WR stands for. Can you provide a bit more clarification?
Here are a couple of pictures, although I realize I will have a change a few things. For starters I soldered the wires to the back side of the board (less to work around). However, I wasn't thinking about the cartridge tray. It won't fit back on! Anyways, after reading what you mentioned about lifting the pins (if I'm interpretting that correctly), there's no way it could work the way I have it wired. My digital camera doesn't have optical zoom so I tried to get as close as possible without making it too blurry. It actually takes decent pics at a distance...I guess this is the first time I really tried to take a picture of something this close up.
The back side of the board, with the 4 wires (I realize this will probably have to change):
[picture deleted]
The front side of the board, with the PlayChoice PPU sitting in the socket:
[picture deleted]
EDIT: pictures deleted since they are incorrect.
QuoteHere's the one I bought: http://www.cascadesurplus.com/catalog/prod...47e08156fff9910 (http://www.cascadesurplus.com/catalog/prod...47e08156fff9910)
It is a standard lowcost version. It`s not the best, but should work.
QuoteQUOTE (Moosmann @ Aug 29 2005, 10:42 AM)
The RGB Pins should not connect from the socket to the pcb, because it is ground.
You have also ONLY lift the 3 RGB pins, not Pin 21.
Please bear with me as I'm not quite familiar with the terminology. When you say "lift" a pin, do you mean to bend it in such a way that it does not make contact with the PCB?
Yes, because Pin 14-17 is connect to GND. If you solder all Pins to the PCB, the 3 RGB Pins make contact with the pcb (Ground).
You can take GND from every place from the PCB.
I send photos comming next 2 days.
Bye Markus
wait wait wait....
a RGB mod for NES? Nintendo Entertainment System 86?
o_O
You're late to the party.
The PlayChoice 10, essentially the NES/Famicom hardware, outputs RGB. The concept here is to remove the components for RGB from the PlayChoice 10 and add them to an NES to provide RGB.
lol
ok thx
Moosmann, were you planning on posting those pictures in this thread or were you going to email them to me? I just noticed the email address in my profile was out of date so I updated it.
Oh...I forgot
RGB Amplifier:
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/moosmann/electronic/NEW-RPG-Amplifier.jpg)
RGB Lift from ground:
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/moosmann/electronic/NES022.jpg)
Sync and Audio:
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/moosmann/electronic/NES032.jpg)
Final (black wire is 5V, brown wire is ground):
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/moosmann/electronic/NES046.jpg)
...and if you have some graphic glitches, use 120 pF:
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/moosmann/electronic/NES028.jpg)
Bye Markus
Awesome! Thanks for posting those pictures, Moosmann. I'll resume work on the mod this weekend.
I just have one more question (for now): what is that black material you have in the "RGB Lift from ground" picture? I assume it is just some type of non-conductive material?
Yes, it is. Cut the 3 Pins from the socket and solder the rgb wires directly.
Bye Markus
Moosmann do you have any screen shots you could post?
would you ever do this mod for money? if so how much
i would love to have an rgb nes!
QuoteMoosmann do you have any screen shots you could post?
(http://nescenter.de/features_sharpfctitler_rgb.jpg)
Quotewould you ever do this mod for money? if so how much
i would love to have an rgb nes!
:)
Send me a PM please.
Bye Markus
i think i will try this rgb mod on a ntsc model 1 nes.
there are few things i was hopping to find out.
were is the best place to get the playchoice 10 ppu? checked ebay a few times only can find the games.
with out the rgb amp will there be a stable image. i want to worry about the amp after the rgb is all functional.
also i wanted to know if the same rgb amp for the turbo duo/pc-engine and or the n64 would work.
i have made both. the n64 amp is mush easier to make than the pc-engine amp.
the n64 amp even works great on my turbo duo. wish i would have know this earlier.
i just did the rgb mod to my n64 and fig i would make a few amps cuz it was so simple. then i tested it in my duo and it worked :)
why was the composite video used as sync instead of pin 21 from the ppu?
thats what it looks like in the picture.
i have had no luck with using composite video as sync. my xrgb2 plus always creates a pixel crawl effect even if i use the lm1881 chip.
check my blocky rgb artifact post on this forum to see what i was getting just from composite noise.
has any one here tried the stereo mod for the nes?
is it even worth the effort?
thanks in advance
Quotewere is the best place to get the playchoice 10 ppu? checked ebay a few times only can find the games.
Search the VS. Games Kit Duckhunt or Tennis.
Quotealso i wanted to know if the same rgb amp for the turbo duo/pc-engine and or the n64 would work.
N64/PCE Amps works, but the picture quality is a little to dark. Take my amplifier.
Quotewhy was the composite video used as sync instead of pin 21 from the ppu?
thats what it looks like in the picture.
Pin 21 from the regular RP2C02/RP2C07 PPU output PAL/NTSC composite video, RP2C03/4/5 PPUs output composite sync. But this signal is unamplified, so that you take the amplified signal from the point in the picture.
Stereo Mod works great.
Bye Markus
QuotePin 21 from the regular RP2C02/RP2C07 PPU output PAL/NTSC composite video, RP2C03/4/5 PPUs output composite sync. But this signal is unamplified, so that you take the amplified signal from the point in the picture.
ok so if i understand correctly the RP2C03/4/5 PPUs are from the playchoice 10 pcb. and when installed in the nes pin 21 is amplifiyed by an amp in the nes that would normaly amplify the composite video?
Yes :)
However, Playchoice 10 PPUs are only RP2C03B.
Vs. PPUs are difference each game.
Bye Markus
QuoteHowever, Playchoice 10 PPUs are only RP2C03B.
Vs. PPUs are difference each game.
will any of these ppus work good?
or is one better than the others?
Only the PPUs from Vs. Duck Hunt / Tennis works (...the 2C03).
The 2C04 PPUs do not works.
http://www.crazykong.com/pins/NintendoVsChips.pin.txt (http://www.crazykong.com/pins/NintendoVsChips.pin.txt)
Bye Markus
Hello, I live in Tokyo, and I was wondering if it was possible to convert my Famicom to RGB as at the moment the picture is awful. Thanks.
You can modified your AV Famicom here:
http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/?07290000 (http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/?07290000)
Bye Markus
QuoteHowever, Playchoice 10 PPUs are only RP2C03B.
Vs. PPUs are difference each game.
QuoteOnly the PPUs from Vs. Duck Hunt / Tennis works (...the 2C03).
The 2C04 PPUs do not works.
if i under stand i can only use the vs tennis or duck hunt and that
uses a RP2C03 ppu ?
the stand alone play choice 10 duck hunt and tennis will not work and they use a RP2C03B ppu?
if any one is willing to sell a vs tennis or duck hunt pm thanks.
ebay has come up with nothing so far.
Some words :)
-Playchoice PCBs is a Hardware witch all parts and ONE PPU (works witch NES RGB Mod), the games is ~like a nes cartridge and do not have a PPU.
-VS. Unisystem PCBs are "nacked" witch not all parts (I mean, witchout a PPU). The games comes witch the ROM-Chips and every game comes witch a PPU. If you buy a VS. Duckhunt Rom-Kit, you get some ROM-Chips and the RP2C03 PPU (works witch NES RGB Mod). However, you also can get a VS. PCB witch a installed game.
It doesn`t matter, how labled is the PPU or if its in grey or white ceramic package. Only Rx2C03x is the right part, RP2C04-000x do not work.
x=difference
Bye Markus
QuotePlaychoice PCBs is a Hardware witch all parts and ONE PPU (works witch NES RGB Mod), the games is ~like a nes cartridge and do not have a PPU
ok i can buy the playchoice pcb and use its ppu?
so the playchoice 10 ppu will work just as good as the vs rom kit of duck hunt or tennis?
thanks again.
Moosmann:
Have you noticed any problems from using this PPU when compared to the original? According to Kevin Horton, the playchoice PPU has a different color template than the home system, resulting in some colors looking different and other games not working at all.
A good test would be to run Kid Icarus on the system and compare the colors (especially the brown of the walls) and see the difference.
Looking forward to your reply.
Has anyone put a NES PPU on a Playchoice-10 board? It seems a shame to plunder a working board just for one chip, even if it is a Playchoice-10.
QuoteHas anyone put a NES PPU on a Playchoice-10 board? It seems a shame to plunder a working board just for one chip, even if it is a Playchoice-10.
Yes I did it, but the output is only black&white because an normal NES use an variable cap on the clk line of the PPU for adjusting the color. Since this cap is not present, the output is B&W. But if you rebuilt the nes clk line on your PC10 it sould work fine.
QuoteRockard:
Have you noticed any problems from using this PPU when compared to the original? According to Kevin Horton, the playchoice PPU has a different color template than the home system, resulting in some colors looking different and other games not working at all.
A good test would be to run Kid Icarus on the system and compare the colors (especially the brown of the walls) and see the difference.
Looking forward to your reply.
Well thank you! I'm happy to answer! 8)
I think there is n���thing you can do about it! I tried myself screwing around with pots to adjust the colorvalue on each rgb-line to match the nes, but it was just foolish, since grey won't be gray when adjusting one color.
By using Marcus Brandells guide, there is only about 1 or 2 games that have real problems with the ppu. (that I am aware of, anyway)
Hack on! I think it is totally worth it. The colors are an insy bit off, but you'll get used to it. Certain combination of colors looks ugly, like brown and red, but for the most time it is just a bliss to look at the sharp, glorius screen.
QuoteHave you noticed any problems from using this PPU when compared to the original? According to Kevin Horton, the playchoice PPU has a different color template than the home system, resulting in some colors looking different and other games not working at all.
A good test would be to run Kid Icarus on the system and compare the colors (especially the brown of the walls) and see the difference.
Looking forward to your reply.
Yes and no.
I mean, the color brown from Kid Icarus is a little brighter with the PC10 PPU, but if you take a look on the Boxartwork from this game, the color brown (hair from Kid Icarus) is the same like the brown from the PC10 PPU.
I think, red and brown is difference between the NES and PC10 PPU because you get quality lost with the NES PPU (Video or Antenna) instead RGB.
99% the games take the right palette because Nintendo also use this PC10 PPU to make screenshots for the Nintendo Magazin or boxartworks.
From many games, only Totally Rad from Jaleco have wrong colors (background from the first Stage black instead white) but this game is unlicensed in Japan. The boxartwork screenshot from the japanese version have also a black background :)
If you have a USA NES and solder the 68-120 pF capacitor, all games run glitchfree.
Bye Markus
Any game that uses the color emphasis bits of the 2C02 NTSC PPU will have problems with a system that uses a 2C03 RGB PPU. These include Konami's Noah's Ark (unplayable), The Immortal (unplayable), Just Breed (unplayable), Super Spy Hunter (glitch), Airwolf (unplayable) The Fantastic Adventures of Dizzy (glitch). Any use of the color emphasis bits will turn graphics completely white for those graphics which use them on a 2C03 RGB PPU.
Also, the 2C03 has a somewhat different palette colors, and three entries which appear as gray on an NTSC PPU will appear as black on a RGB PPU. This accounts for the loss of detail in several games.
Thanks for this info.
I know, "The Immortal" don`t work.
The PPU from "Sharp Famicom Titler" use the same color palette and it is a licensed Famicom.
Bye Markus
finally got the playchoice 10 ppu for my nes rgb mod!
i used the simple n64 rgb amp to boost the brightness as you can see it works great.
it looks great. i also did the stereo mod and love the new stereo sound.
here are some pics of the nes with out rgb then with rgb hooked up to my samsung dlp through a xrgb2 plus.
thanks a lot Moosmann your help made this mod very fast and simple to do.
composite :(
(http://home.adelphia.net/~acem77/nes_composite.jpg)
rgb B)
(http://home.adelphia.net/~acem77/nes_rgb.jpg)
now i have to work on a rgb mod for my final rgbless system the 3do......
the post above was from me ..Grrrrr i hate when i post and did not sign in...
Do you see vertikal stripes lines from Castlevania 2 -Simons Quest (title screen only) ?
Bye Markus
i do not have that game to test.
Holy crap, this is awesome! I still have a lot left to do on the mod, but I'm actually getting a picture now. I haven't built the RGB amp yet, so the picture is really dark...I just played around with my TV's settings a bit just to test it out. I also need to install the capacitor to pin 24 (haven't been able to find the right cap locally so I'll have to order online...just haven't gotten around to it yet).
At any rate, I just played through a couple of levels of SMB2. Despite the picture being dark with wavy lines, I can still tell it is going to look a lot better than composite once it's all done. :)
lucky me i did not need the cap.
OK, so I finally got the RGB amp put together. (Yeah, I guess that makes me kind of slow, but I blame Dragon Warrior 7 :) ) Anyways, the picture is definitely brighter now, although I am seeing a strange effect. It looks like everything is smeared horizontally. This makes the picture look blurry, although the horizontal edges of things are still sharp. (i.e., no blurring/smearing vertically)
I have tried connecting each of the red, green, and blue signals individually and noticed the effect is present on all of them. This makes me think it isn't a case of me making a bad connection by accident.
I was following Moosmann's schematic when building the amp, although I made a few deviations:
1. I used transistors NTE 123AP and NTE 159. According to the cross reference I was using, I think they should be equivalent to BC 33725 and BC 557, respectively. NTE Cross Reference (http://nte01.nteinc.com/nte/NTExRefSemiProd.nsf/$$Search?OpenForm)
2. My resistors are 2% tolerance. I was having a hard enough time tracking down all the right values in 2%, let alone 1%, so I went with 2%. I didn't think this should make too much of a difference.
3. I used non-polarized capacitors. I wasn't sure how to tell + from - on a regular capacitor, so I thought it would be safer to get a non-polarized. I had read somewhere that a non-polarized capacitor could always be used in place of a polarized capacitor, so I didn't think this would be an issue.
I went ahead and took a picture, although it didn't really capture the effect very well. First of all, I don't see those vertical lines on my TV so I'm not sure why they showed up in the picture. Secondly, the smearing effect is a lot worse looking at the TV than what the picture shows. You can still see it a little in the picture though. Anything with black on the right edge has a noticeable smearing effect in the picture (it looks worse on the TV).
Yoshi Title Screen (http://bostich.no-ip.com:81/Yoshi_TitleScreen_RGB.jpg)
Has anyone ever encountered this sort of problem when building an RGB amp? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
You need an 10 uF Electrolyt Capacitor (also works uop to 220uF) with polarity, and you get a nice quality ;)
The short Pin is -, the long pin is +
Bye Markus
I went and picked up a 10 uF Electrolytic capacitor with polarity today. I removed one of the non-polarized capacitors I had used and replaced it with the polarized capacitor. I only did this to one amp just to test it out. Red happened to be the most convenient. I am still seeing the same smearing effect, even with the polarized capacitor.
After a little digging around it sounds like the slew rate of the amplifier isn't fast enough. I don't know enough about amps to know how to speed it up or even which component(s) would be responsible.
Would the transistors be responsible for something like this? Perhaps that cross reference I was using was wrong. I think the only reason I used those NTE transistors is that I was having trouble finding the BC33725/BC557...or maybe the place I wanted to buy from just didn't have them. (I originally wanted to try and order all the components from the same place to save on shipping, but that proved to be a futile effort.)
Replace >all< 3 Amps with a 10uF Electrolyt capacitor, very important. You can also use:
BC557 = 2SA1015
BC33725 = BC546
R6 is difference, you can also use a 100 Ohm poth to adjust the brightness. And add a 4,7uF Capacitor (without polarity) between +5V and GND.
Bye Markus
I think I just figured out the problem! I had the transistors hooked up backwards. :( I just flipped both transistors around on the red amp (the one using the polarized capacitor) and the picture is now crystal clear.
The diagram on the packaging for these transistors is a little confusing, IMO. It is a straight top-down view of the transistor, but it doesn't indicate if the curved side is up or down. Apparently the diagram is drawn curved side down. I originally interpretted it the other way around.
Thanks a lot for all your help Moosmann! I may try your other suggestions if the picture is too bright once I fix the green and blue amps. (I only have red connected right now.)
For some strange reason, I can't post while I'm logged in now.
I get the following error page: "Error 400"
I also can't seem to post more than one sentence at a time.
Anyways, I finished the NES RGB mod.
http://bostich.no-ip.com:81/RGB_mod.html (http://bostich.no-ip.com:81/RGB_mod.html)
I've been noticing a slight issue when playing my RGB modded NES. It has faint lines creeping across the screen. These are most noticeable in large patches of solid color.
At first glance, these lines would appear to be interference of some sort. However, there is no variation in the spacing or movement of the lines. When I have seen interference in the past (back when I used to use RF switches for all my systems) it seemed to be fairly unpredictable.
These are horizontal lines moving from bottom to top. There are approximately 30 lines on screen at a time and it takes roughly 20 seconds for them to travel the height of the screen.
I remember seeing these lines before I had built the amp, so I don't think the amp is introducing the lines. The lines were a lot more noticeable without the amp.
Has anyone seen an effect like this before?
Never on my nes and famicom.
I only notice vertikal stripes lines in some games like Castlevania 2. However, when I play Castlevania 2 on the FDS, it`s no vertikal lines. I think, it is some difference in the cartridges, but I haven`t found out "why" at the moment.
Bye Markus
Can anyone give me some detailed information on the NES stereo mod? I want to mod my NES to have a 1/4" stereo output and would like to have a pot to control the mono-stereo mix. Also, does this mid dropout some of the volume?
I can' find a good resource to learn this mod. Pictures and instruction would be great!
my email is censoredpromo@ msn.com if you have any info or I'll try to check back here.
Michael, as your question isn't strictly relevant to the RGB discussion, please start a new thread. Or better yet, please use the search function to look for two previous discussions of the NES stereo mod to see if that answers your question.
-KKC
finally got the playchoice 10 ppu for my nes rgb mod!
i used the simple n64 rgb amp to boost the brightness as you can see it works great.
it looks great. i also did the stereo mod and love the new stereo sound.
here are some pics of the nes with out rgb then with rgb hooked up to my samsung dlp through a xrgb2 plus.
thanks a lot Moosmann your help made this mod very fast and simple to do.
composite :rolleyes:
(http://www.greatlakesvista.com/rgb/nes/nes_composite.jpg)
rgb B)
(http://www.greatlakesvista.com/rgb/nes/nes_rgb.jpg)
stereo sample
stereo_nes.zip (http://www.greatlakesvista.com/rgb/nes/stereo_nes.zip)
sorry for the repeat bump but i had to make a new post cuz i could not edit my original post.
re-edit fixed the link.
You put http:// twice in that stereo nes link. ^^
Hi guys,
I've been attempting to do this mod for some time now and it just doesn't seem to working and I ned some ideas.
I've replaced the PAL NES PPU with a RP2C03B, build the amp and all but the graphics are scrambled. I can see the game playing and the picture is stable (not rolling) but it seems like there's about 8 little screens in the picture, everyone displaying a different set of random lines. I don't know how to describe it better, I'll try to get a picture of it soon.
I've done the mod using Moosmann's directions, I've tapped the sync from the RF Unit like in Moosmann's picture. I've tried it with and without 68-120 caps but they don't seem to affect the problem at all. The NES still works well with original PPU.
Any help or ideas would be great.
I might be wrong but i'm pretty sure you need an NTSC nes to do this mod cause pal nes have a special cpu and ppu witch run at a different speed than NTSC NES/FC.
For modding a pal nes with RGB ppu you will need to swap both cpu and ppu and also change the clock.
Quote from: DarthCloud on December 02, 2007, 04:11:32 AM
I might be wrong but i'm pretty sure you need an NTSC nes to do this mod cause pal nes have a special cpu and ppu witch run at a different speed than NTSC NES/FC.
For modding a pal nes with RGB ppu you will need to swap both cpu and ppu and also change the clock.
Thanks, don't know why the thought never crossed my mind before starting the mod. ::) So I did some quick reading about the CPU's and it seems the US/PAL CPU's have a different divider (12/16) respectively) to achieve the clock. I just was thinking what if I change the crystal to 28,636363Mhz which then would be divided by 16 to get the NTSC clock 1,79Mhz, would that work? Or would I then need a separate clock for the PPU?
Or does someone have a spare NTSC CPU they want to sell me? :)
Quote from: davidleeroth on December 03, 2007, 08:00:00 AM
Thanks, don't know why the thought never crossed my mind before starting the mod. ::) So I did some quick reading about the CPU's and it seems the US/PAL CPU's have a different divider (12/16) respectively) to achieve the clock. I just was thinking what if I change the crystal to 28,636363Mhz which then would be divided by 16 to get the NTSC clock 1,79Mhz, would that work? Or would I then need a separate clock for the PPU?
Or does someone have a spare NTSC CPU they want to sell me? :)
How did you get your RGB PPU?, if you get it from an arcade board then you can find your NTSC CPU here. Otherwise just get an US NES of eBay, it would be a lot easier...
Also You really need to swap the CPU, changing only the clock will not work since the CPU is designed to work at a certain speed. So changing the clock for a lower or faster one is likely to fail. And you cannot use two different clock in a system cause clock never really run at exacly the fequence they are rated. So even if you use two clock that are common divider this will not work. Like one of my professor said in my course of digital design: " Don't fuck with the clock" ;)
I don't know if swapping CPU+PPU+Clock will work, maybe the PCB layout of Pal nes is different.
Quote from: DarthCloud on December 03, 2007, 08:46:53 AM
Also You really need to swap the CPU, changing only the clock will not work since the CPU is designed to work at a certain speed. So changing the clock for a lower or faster one is likely to fail.
If the CPU has a higher ratio clock divider inside then increasing the speed of the clock to compensate will result in the CPU running at the correct speed. That's the whole point.
The PPU came with Duck Hunt ROMs so it didn't include the CPU. I did, however, manage to buy a NTSC CPU from a local video game store. Man, that store is amazing.
I'm gonna try to change the crystal to 28MHz first and if that won't work, I'll tackle CPU. It seems though that no-one here stocks either 28 or 21MHz crystals. ???
@davidleeroth: I have a NTSC CPU & Crystal for sale, please send me an eMail.
Greetings Markus
moosmann seems to have everything :)
did you every do the rgb 3do mod and put that pcb board i made to use moosmann?
did you check out my post about the powerpak not working correctly with the rgb ppu in my rgb modded nes?
if so any ideas?
Quote from: Moosmann on December 07, 2007, 06:14:21 AM
@davidleeroth: I have a NTSC CPU & Crystal for sale, please send me an eMail.
Greetings Markus
Thanks for the offer but I already got the CPU and I took a 21MHz crystal from a broken FDS ROM adapter. I see the PC-Engine had one as well.
Ok, changed the CPU and the crystal to NTSC's so now this bad boy is working! The composite picture on the NES had a huge issue with dot crawl and it's all gone now. The improvement is clear in pics but you can really appreciate when there's movement i.e. the first scene of Life Force, which in composite looked ridiculous. I'm very impressed.
The RP2C03 palette does make some games look a bit different, like some Konami games look like they're on MSX but that's to be expected. Games with cartoony colors and graphics like Mega Man seem to come out the best. All in all, the trade-off is well worth it.
Moosmann, I get vertical stripes in some games as well, but they only appear with my RGB monitor. My Sony TV doesn't have even a trace. The stripes are grey on black areas like intro screen in Probotector II.
QuoteMoosmann, I get vertical stripes in some games as well, but they only appear with my RGB monitor. My Sony TV doesn't have even a trace. The stripes are grey on black areas like intro screen in Probotector II.
It`s normal. I haven`t found a way to reduce these lines. The lines come directly from the ppu. You can compare "Castlevania 2 " Title Screen with Start/Select Screen (last right vertikal line). To get the best quality without grey lines on black areas, recuce the "brightness" on your monitor.
Greetings Markus
Quote from: Moosmann on November 12, 2005, 07:19:54 PM
Thanks for this info.
I know, "The Immortal" don`t work.
The PPU from "Sharp Famicom Titler" use the same color palette and it is a licensed Famicom.
Bye Markus
If I understand correctly (especially after looking at your website (http://mbrandel.vizionaires.net/?page_id=40), even though I don't understand German ;D), the RGB PPUs that are compatible (closest color palette) with the NES are:
-- Any of the Rx2C03x PPUs (available from Vs. Tennis, Vs. Duck Hunt, Vs. Ice Climber (JP), PlayChoice-10, and the Sharp C1 Television)
-- And the RC2C05-99 PPU (available from the Sharp Famicom Titler)
Right? I hope I got that correct...
Now, I have another question:
Although the color palettes on these RGB PPUs are different from native NES PPUs (RP2C02 for NTSC systems and PR2C07 for PAL systems), between each other, are they all the same? I mean, is the RGB color palette the same on all of the R-x2C03x PPUs and on the PC2C05-99 PPU?
Please ask if I should clarify my question more...
Quotedid you every do the rgb 3do mod and put that pcb board i made to use moosmann?
Unfortunately not :(
I was to busy last year, but I will finish all begun modding projects this year.
Quotedid you check out my post about the powerpak not working correctly with the rgb ppu in my rgb modded nes?
if so any ideas?
Yes, I read your posting. I have no idea, but I see this problem with my Action Replay pro.
QuoteRight? I hope I got that correct...
Yes.
QuoteI mean, is the RGB color palette the same on all of the R-x2C03x PPUs and on the PC2C05-99 PPU?
It`s the same.
BTW: I use an Iscan HD Videoprocessor/Scaler since 6 Months. I reduce the colors a little to get a little natural colors like the colors from NTSC Video.
Greetings Markus
I know it's an old post but... anyone managed to solve all this?
http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-15270.html
http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/gotRGB/fctitler.html
Why not just get a famicom titler (yea, i know they are $$$) and mod it for RGB? Wouldn't that work better? Or perhaps consolize a Playchoice board?
All those system use the same PPU so whatever way you use to get RGB from a nes it's alway going to look the same.
I ordered some 200 ohm pots to put in line with the data points on the powerpak.
My plan is to remove all the components from a game genie and use it as a pass through. Then solder the 200 ohm pots on to the game genie.
i do not feel like messing with/messing up the powerpak its self.
Does any company sell straight pass though connectors that would work with a nes. That would be great then i could skip messing with the game genie.
Does anyone know if bunnyboy/ the creator of the powerpak is still alive?
He still has not replied to my email.
I have not asked too much from him. I see this as being very rude if he is choosing not to write back.
Has anyone exactly replicated the color palette of the NES-compatible RGB PPUs for use in an emulator?
Alternatively, does anyone know where I can find exactly which colors are in this "official" palette so I can make a custom palette to use in an emulator myself?
Fortunatelly i have an rgb modded av famicom, with stereo that i was able to get from japan for quite a penny, the rgb chip was from a broken titler. The jail bar lines are visible, but doesnt really get in the way if you mess with the settings... I absolutely loooooove it! and it kills me at the thought of anything happening to this gem...
http://bp0.blogger.com/_2N-HuuZ5Otk/RjKXhjBKd3I/AAAAAAAAAB0/o_Uk5wQDMi4/s1600-h/DSC07982.JPG (http://bp0.blogger.com/_2N-HuuZ5Otk/RjKXhjBKd3I/AAAAAAAAAB0/o_Uk5wQDMi4/s1600-h/DSC07982.JPG)
http://bp2.blogger.com/_2N-HuuZ5Otk/RjKXiDBKd5I/AAAAAAAAACE/reo_PtmffTA/s1600-h/DSC07986.JPG (http://bp2.blogger.com/_2N-HuuZ5Otk/RjKXiDBKd5I/AAAAAAAAACE/reo_PtmffTA/s1600-h/DSC07986.JPG)
(http://bp2.blogger.com/_2N-HuuZ5Otk/RjKXiDBKd5I/AAAAAAAAACE/reo_PtmffTA/s1600-h/DSC07986.JPG)
soo...
after reading through the forums, are any of you guys willing to do this mod for $$$? i have a virgin famicom av that needs modding, and was wondering if any of you guys are interested in doing it?? im not as skilled in soldering to do this job, but was wondering if there are any for sale? even the original US nes is fine by me, please message me thanks, any help will be much appreciated.
tsenzen
If anyone is able to tackle this mod, I have an AV famicom I want RGB modded. Just wonder if my PowerPak will work with it though...
QuoteJust wonder if my PowerPak will work with it though...
yes the power pak works perfectly, i have to reset every now and then if theres some random horizontal line distortion which is just a powerpak symptom... otherwise than that its a godsend ;)
Quote from: tsenzen on June 08, 2008, 10:28:04 AM
QuoteJust wonder if my PowerPak will work with it though...
yes the power pak works perfectly, i have to reset every now and then if theres some random horizontal line distortion which is just a powerpak symptom... otherwise than that its a godsend ;)
Your power pak works aon a RGB modded NES?
If so i would love to get some info from you! :)
So far i have had no luck
I finally got around to getting a game genie and gutting it to make a straight through converter.
I cut PPU D0-7 (pins 30-33, 66-69), and soldered 200 ohm pots in between.
It does nothing I can notice. Even When I set the pots all the way to 200ohms
I have tested it in both a RGB and stock nes with the power pak and a retail cart. Everything works as if the pots had not been there.
Now i need a new idea to try..??
since my av famicom is a japanese RGB modded famicom, the pins are obviously different, im using a 72-60 pin converter for the powerpak, which turns the cartridge the opposite direction... but works instantly and perfectly :)
i did some comparisions between some carts, and noticed that only roughly 1% of quality is changed with feedback noise.. i mean this is very minuscule (your basically sitting 5 inches from the rgb monitor trying to desect the signal) however this doesnt affect the actual rgb.. I realized its the powerpaks interference.
Im using a 20"pvm, and an rgb titler/stereo modded AV Famicom.
Quote from: tsenzen on June 11, 2008, 01:36:15 PM
since my av famicom is a japanese RGB modded famicom, the pins are obviously different, im using a 72-60 pin converter for the powerpak, which turns the cartridge the opposite direction... but works instantly and perfectly :)
i did some comparisions between some carts, and noticed that only roughly 1% of quality is changed with feedback noise.. i mean this is very minuscule (your basically sitting 5 inches from the rgb monitor trying to desect the signal) however this doesnt affect the actual rgb.. I realized its the powerpaks interference.
Im using a 20"pvm, and an rgb titler/stereo modded AV Famicom.
What generation of power pak are you using. i am using the newest one.
Does any one here know what the famicom is doing different from the nes.
QuoteWhat generation of power pak are you using. i am using the newest one.
i actually have the first run, when the powerpak was just released.. and i am also running the first set of files.. im not sure what has been updated, since i didnt really have a reason to update. i know any non-official, or bootleg versions of games hardly if any ever work..
I just modded a nes for someone else and the powerpak does work on that nes.
The nes that works with the powerpak has a mother board rev nes-cpu-4 and its serial is around 1,280,000.
My nes that does not work has a mother board rev nes-cpu-7 and its serial is
around 11,000,000.
does any one have the real details on how nes serials tie in with the rev of nes mother boards
i just bought a nes that was on ebay.
Its serial is N1,394,910 and it has a Ver 4 Mother board.
The guy was nice enough to take it a part and take pics for me.
i am now looking into a way to make the nes have both ppus on a switch.
i am thinking about using pull-down resistors.
I have used something like this to have 2 switchable bioses in my neo-geo aes system and 2 switchable firmwares in my xbox 360 dvd rom.
Does any one have any idea on the limits the nes ppu may have when trying this?
Son of a bitch >:(
I just got my new nes with the v4 Motherboard... it has the same problem with the powerpak
as my v7 MB nes.
I was up till 3am all happy thinking it was going to work with the powerpak just like the last nes i modded with the v4 MB.
I did take high rez pics of the v4 nes that does work with the powerpak.
The main difference I see is in the daughter board with the av,rf and power connections.
There are some small brand name changes for some components.
This v4 nes is the 1st nes I did the does need the cap from pin 24 on the ppu to gnd.
Things I have tried to do when i had the v4 nes that did work with the powerpak.
Switched rgb ppus, cart slots, removed the rgb amp, used the the cap on on pin 24 to gnd.
Listed below are Things I can tell are different between the two nintendos
The biggest differences I found are the use of 74LSXXX and 74HCXXX ICs
And the missing 4Mhz CIC. Not really sure what the part is called? Ceramic Resonator?
I am leaning toward the 74XXXXX ICs.
(http://www.greatlakesvista.com/rgb/nes/V4_nes_NonWorking.jpg)
The NES that does not work with the powerpak when rgb modded.
nes-cpu-04
SN# N1394910
Different part numbers
U3 HD74LS139P
U2 HD74LS373P
this system is also missing a few components.
C11 .01u Ceramic Cap (near the blue power connector)
C12 .01u Ceramic Cap (near the blue power connector)
4Mhz Out CIC (circuitry/lockout chip clock line). runs to pin 71 on the cart. It has 2 empty holes. (near the 3193a lockout chip)
Any other newer nes-cpu-07 Nintendos I looked at have a 3pin(one pin to gnd) light blue 4Mhz cic on them.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(http://www.greatlakesvista.com/rgb/nes/V4_nes_Working.jpg)
The NES that does work with the powerpak when rgb modded.
nes-cpu-04
SN# N1284385
Different part numbers
U3 TC74HC139P
U2 TC74HC373P
This nes 4Mhz looks like a Ceramic Resonator. It is red/orange in color.
I would guess it uses 2 pins. I mailed the nintendo back and can not verify that any more.
but the v4 nes I have now only has 2 holes on the pc
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a difference between the power/RF/AV daughter board.
There are only 5 pins going to that. 2 for power, 1 gnd, 1 composite video and 1 mono audio.
I have a hard time believing that will effect the ppu or the powerpaks graphic abilities.
Both nintendos have 74LSXXX silk screened on the pcb by U2 and U3.
The working nes uses 74HCXXX ICs even though the silk screen calls for the the other 74LSXXX.
while looking for info on 74 ICs I found this on a site.
The 74LS (Low-power Schottky) family (like the original) uses TTL (Transistor-Transistor Logic) circuitry which is fast but requires more power than later families. The 74 series is often still called the 'TTL series' even though the latest ICs do not use TTL!
The 74HC family has High-speed CMOS circuitry, combining the speed of TTL with the very low power consumption of the 4000 series. They are CMOS ICs with the same pin arrangements as the older 74LS family. Note that 74HC inputs cannot be reliably driven by 74LS outputs because the voltage ranges used for logic 0 are not quite compatible, use 74HCT instead.
It sounds like the all nintendos really should only use 74LSXXX ICs. But I have saw one with 74LSXXX ICs.
Does any one have any feed back on this. Expecially the 4Mhz part and 74XXXXX ICs.
Is it safe to user the RGB PPUs without an heatsink ???
Nintendo used to be so cheap... Why would they install one if it wasn't needed?
QuoteI am leaning toward the 74XXXXX ICs.
My bet is on the '373 :)
http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?FS=TRUE&Ntt=*TC74HC373P*&N=1323038&Ntx=mode%2bmatchall&Ns=P_SField&OriginalKeyword=TC74HC373P+&Ntk=Mouser_Wildcards (http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?FS=TRUE&Ntt=*TC74HC373P*&N=1323038&Ntx=mode%2bmatchall&Ns=P_SField&OriginalKeyword=TC74HC373P+&Ntk=Mouser_Wildcards)
I wounder if any of these are good replacments for the TC74HC373P.
I would like to find the original part.
It doesn't matter which brand, they're all the same. BTW, my Famicom has 74LS parts and it works fine with the PowerPak. Besides, the PowerPak should be able to be driven by either logic family, so perhaps just that specific batch of 74LS can't pull down the PowerPak's pullups.
Is there a chance you could post a high rez picture of your famicom PCB or email me it?
if not what is the full part number of the 74 ICs on your famicom.
tsenzen
if you are still checking this post could you do the same thanks.
Thanks
Success!!!!
I found the fix at least for the v4 nes pcb. I bought a Toshiba 74HC373AP at a local electronics supply store and replaced the 74LS373P.
The powerpak started to work after a few tries. it seems to be a little touchy. I do have every thing in pieces now so that could be the problem.
I will have to look in to it a bit more but I feel for the most part the problems is solved.
next I will replace the same chip in my v7 nes pcb and see if this is a universal fix.
Ace, I've stumbled upon your work and I'm very impressed. For the longest time, I have wanted to figure out to do the type of mod that you have successfully done. I also would be very interested in your services and would love for you to help me achieve a special project that I have in mind. Please let me know if it would be of any interest to you. -Legendaryacts Legendaryacts@hotmail.com
New update I have added a 74HC373 to my ver 7 NES and it works great with the powerpak.
everything seems to work great. Most of my problems seem to have been from bad connections.
at this point I would say this is a universal fix for any front loading NES with a RGB mod to enable powerpak compatibility
I tried a duo ppu mod Rgb/composite+RF.
For the most part I piggy backed both PPUs then I select the ppu I want by supplying it with 5V from a switch.
I was also going to use a rgb led for the power led. If I am in rgb mode it will light up blue and red for composite video mode.
I Had everything working but it added more vertical lines/noise.
I went back just used the RGB PPU to minimize the vertical lines.
A funny /dangerous /stupid thing I did was piggy back both with PPUs to see what would happen.
I got no video but the sound would still play but it was playing very fast.
After playing around I noticed older v4 NES systems have more vertical line noise in the image than the ver 7 NES.
this is something to consider when RGB modding a NES.
Games run from the powerpak display vertical lines more intensely.
RP2C05 ppu sharp twin famicom rgb
will these work with each other?
RC2C05-01
Ninja Jajamaru Kun (Japan)
RC2C05-02
Mighty Bomb Jack (Japan)
RC2C05-03
Gumshoe
RPC05-04
Top Gun
QuoteRP2C05 ppu sharp twin famicom rgb
What do you mean ?
Quotewill these work with each other?
RC2C05-01
Ninja Jajamaru Kun (Japan)
RC2C05-02
Mighty Bomb Jack (Japan)
RC2C05-03
Gumshoe
RPC05-04
Top Gun
It doesn`t work (afaik and afair). The #5 PPUs have the same NES Colors, but a Rom-Check/Protection except the -99 PPu from Titler.
Greetings Markus
Hey guys,
New here ;D
I got a few questions about this mod that I am not sure on.
1: When using the chip off of the PlayerChoice 10, which capacitor is used to clean up the signal? Is it the 68uf or the 120uf? Also, does this capacitor need to be polarized or non-polarized?
2: Once the chip from the PlayerChoice 10 is in the NES, does it need a heatsink or not?
Thanks,
Gamester
Does anyone know the answer to these questions?
Perhaps Moosmann is still around?
I would like to know soon so I can place my Digikey order.
Thanks,
Gamester
I`m not every day here, sorry for the late reply.
You need ceramic capacitors (without polarity). Try 68pf, when you still get some problems with graphics, take 120pf. It doesn`t matter with or without heatsinks.
Greetings Markus
Ok, cool, thanks for that info!
So, are all Ceramic Capacitors non-polar then? Just wondering as non-polar is not a feature selection for ceramic capacitors at Digikey.
Thanks again,
Gamester
In general, ceramic capacitors are not polarized, whereas electrolytic and tantalum ones are mostly polarized. There are always exceptions, but you're looking at fewer than one percent of the available components.
Awesome, thanks guys!
Thanks again,
Gamester
One other thing comes to mind. When soldering on the IC socket, how can you be sure that the solder is getting to the upper part of the pin? What I mean is since the IC socket sets flat against the pcb, I can't really visually tell if the solder got to the upper part of the pin or not.
There are traces for the top and bottom of a pin hole that go to separate locations isn't there, or is there not?
Is this even important for this mod? I assume it is, but not sure.
Thanks,
Gamester
Surely someone here can verify this question? I tried to explain it as good as possible...
Quote from: Gamester on March 25, 2009, 03:28:57 AM
One other thing comes to mind. When soldering on the IC socket, how can you be sure that the solder is getting to the upper part of the pin? What I mean is since the IC socket sets flat against the pcb, I can't really visually tell if the solder got to the upper part of the pin or not.
There are traces for the top and bottom of a pin hole that go to separate locations isn't there, or is there not?
Is this even important for this mod? I assume it is, but not sure.
Thanks,
Gamester
Dont worry about it the hole is lined from top to bottom.
just solder the bottom the best you can.
I have done a lot rgb mods never had a problem.
Awesome, I never knew that.
Thanks a bunch for all of the help guys!
I will be attempting this project as soon as all of my stuff I ordered comes in :)
Thanks again,
Gamester
I just read this concerning the color output...
QuoteJust thought I'd mention a few things, mainly concerning the "inverted colors" on the PC10 boards, and the "inverting of the color emphasis bits". If the colors appear inverted on your PC10 board, it's because most of the old Nintendo arcade boards have a video amplifier that sends an inverted signal to a monitor that accepts inverted signals. But the PPU itself does not produce these inverted colors. I found a simple way to modify vs. boards to have non-inverted output, simply by adding 6 resistors (3 if you only intend to use it for a single monitor); I haven't tried this mod on a PC10 board, but I'd imagine it can be modded the same way.
Now about the color emphasis bits - what they do on the RGB PPUs is they force the red, green, and/or blue channels to full brightness, affecting every color. The composite PPUs on the other hand add a weak red, green, and/or blue color to the screen and darken the luminance values of certain colors - except for colors xE and xF (these are unaffected). I've heard that some games use all 3 emphasis bits. While this simply darkens the picture on the composite PPU, it unfortunately makes the screen on an RGB PPU go solid white - not a good thing. This, along with some bad colors, especially 0B and 3B, are reasons why some people frown at the RGB PPU, but for most games I think it looks great.
http://assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7546
I got the Info, that add some 3,3K resistors (parallel to the RGB-Pins - before the signal go into the amplifier) to get a more accurate NES palette. I test this some weeks ago very shortly, but I still have to test it with much more games and with my own amplifier circuit.
The other method is to use an action replay. This makes some non rgb compatible games working (e.g. Bubble Bobble wrongred background to black).
If I have check them all and the additional resistors don´t damage the PPU, I update my page.
Greetings Markus
Quote from: Moosmann on May 03, 2009, 12:31:24 AM
I got the Info, that add some 3,3K resistors (parallel to the RGB-Pins - before the signal go into the amplifier) to get a more accurate NES palette. I test this some weeks ago very shortly, but I still have to test it with much more games and with my own amplifier circuit.
The other method is to use an action replay. This makes some non rgb compatible games working (e.g. Bubble Bobble wrongred background to black).
If I have check them all and the additional resistors don´t damage the PPU, I update my page.
Greetings Markus
Hey MoosMann, any update on this? I just got my Vs. Duck Hunt ppu in the mail this morning, so I'm getting ready to do the mod.
Thanks,
Chris
I ran this through a jamma adapter to run on my arcade monitor (works fine)..
However, im able to power the famicom without plugging in the AC? so when i disconnect the av, its like power off, and when i reconnect the av it turns the system on?
should i disconnect the 5+ cable from the wiring? or is this just a symptom of the jamma fingerboard?
Just finished the mod. I had the same problem as Bostitch, with the blurry picture. I also had to flip all of my transistors around, as I was using NTE brand components. The order of the legs on those is opposite of what Moosman uses, so for anyone else doing this mod, make sure you have the transistors situated properly.
This was easily the most challenging electronics project I have ever worked on. I can't even guess how many hours I sent soldering, desoldering, and troubleshooting and how much money I wasted re-buying components. I got really frustrated a lot, and stayed up past my bedtime several times to "finish it up" only to go to bed frustrated because it still wasn't working. Today I worked on it literally all day from about 11AM until sometime around midnight, and finally got everything working and properly put back together after about 3 weeks of working on it on and off. I can say without hesitation that it was easily all worth it. The comparison pictures I have seen online do not even come close to doing it justice. The NES has a beautiful RGB picture; just as good as any other console. The colors being "off" don't bother me at all because now the games match the back of the box, screenshots in the official NES players guide, etc. The colors don;t seen off to me, but seem correct now.
Sorry for the long post, but I hope it provides inspiration to anyone else who is either on the fence about this, or is getting frustrated mid-mod.
Thanks a lot Moosman,
Chris
I would really like to have this mod done to my NES. I know its way over my head. Maybe someone would be willing to do it for some financial compensation?
Has anyone tried using the NJM2267 amp in their NES yet? I'm wondering if it will help with the jail bars. I just built the amp on a bread board tonight to use with my TG16 and it looks awesome, so I was thinking about replacing the Moosman amp that I have in my NES (no offense, Moos.)
Chris
Quote from: Jibbajaba on May 06, 2010, 03:05:40 PM
Has anyone tried using the NJM2267 amp in their NES yet? I'm wondering if it will help with the jail bars. I just built the amp on a bread board tonight to use with my TG16 and it looks awesome, so I was thinking about replacing the Moosman amp that I have in my NES (no offense, Moos.)
Chris
I'm the one who posted that info around here. Yes, you can use the very same amp on the NES RGB mod. You can also use the circuit for CSYNC too (both TG and NES). I have found that running CSYNC through the NJM (for both systems) improves compatiblity with my XRGB-3. Also, for both systems, putting 1000 to 1200 pF caps on the outputs to ground reduces JBs (caps work as a first order LPF). I haven't found a way to completely eliminate the problem. JBs are also present in the arcade (I have seen VS and PC10 cabs recently and they do this too). Enjoy!
Just finished the mod, the most annoying problems with the RGB PPU palette are when skin colors are off, overall the picture quality improvement is well worth it, I noticed anything by Konami looks amazing.
I greatly reduced jailbars by tapping sync off of the PPU to a LM1881 instead of using the amplified output on the NES. I am however using a CRT, when using my X-RGB2 with an LCD they are stil pretty visible.
Has anyone attempted to order the RGB amp/CXA1645 kits from http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO (http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO)? I wonder if they ship out of the country. I clicked the order link, but XP/Firefox can't display the page properly...so I can't run it through babelfish :( I'm going to do my re-designed Famicom next and would like it use their CXA1645 kit rather than wiring the whole thing up with a breadboard.
QuoteI haven't found a way to completely eliminate the problem.
This isn`t a problem with the amplifiers, it is a problem from the games. An example: Compare the JB (completly right) between Title screen and Start/Password Screen from Castlevania 2. Or compare Chip`n Dale 2, so that you can understand what i mean.
Greetings Markus
Quote from: Moosmann on August 10, 2010, 07:32:04 PM
QuoteI haven't found a way to completely eliminate the problem.
This isn`t a problem with the amplifiers, it is a problem from the games. An example: Compare the JB (completly right) between Title screen and Start/Password Screen from Castlevania 2. Or compare Chip`n Dale 2, so that you can understand what i mean.
Greetings Markus
Yeah, some games have more JBs than others... though I still intend to determine as to WHY! ??? :D
JBs look more defined with some colors more than others.
Also different NES revs have less defined JBs.
Same with the SNES, my launch SNES has mild JBs, a later rev I modded for some one
Did not have any.
Duo ppus in the NES will increase the JBs, tried this to have an all in one system, not worth the JBs increase
to keep composite video... :P
Quote from: acem77 on August 14, 2010, 02:56:34 AM
JBs look more defined with some colors more than others.
Also different NES revs have less defined JBs.
Same with the SNES, my launch SNES has mild JBs, a later rev I modded for some one
Did not have any.
Duo ppus in the NES will increase the JBs, tried this to have an all in one system, not worth the JBs increase
to keep composite video... :P
Did you just GTranslate your post through several different languages before posting? ??? :P
I wish i could say yes.... :-*
Quote from: RGB32E on August 14, 2010, 07:42:20 AM
Quote from: acem77 on August 14, 2010, 02:56:34 AM
JBs look more defined with some colors more than others.
Also different NES revs have less defined JBs.
Same with the SNES, my launch SNES has mild JBs, a later rev I modded for some one
Did not have any.
Duo ppus in the NES will increase the JBs, tried this to have an all in one system, not worth the JBs increase
to keep composite video... :P
Did you just GTranslate your post through several different languages before posting? ??? :P
Quote from: Hamburglar on August 10, 2010, 12:33:29 PM
Has anyone attempted to order the RGB amp/CXA1645 kits from http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO (http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO)? I wonder if they ship out of the country. I clicked the order link, but XP/Firefox can't display the page properly...so I can't run it through babelfish :( I'm going to do my re-designed Famicom next and would like it use their CXA1645 kit rather than wiring the whole thing up with a breadboard.
In response to your question, I used a shipping proxy based in Japan called http://www.sutocorp.com (http://www.sutocorp.com). I linked the specific order form link (http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/OrderForm.html (http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/OrderForm.html)) and specified which item I wanted (New Famicom RGB remodeling kit) and just to make sure, I left a note in the order pointing out which item I wanted on the product list page (http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/ProductsList.html (http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/ProductsList.html)).
It worked perfectly for me. You pay a 3000 yen deposit then pay the rest of the cost of the item + shipping once they receive it. No problems whatsoever. Unfortunately, I haven't had the chance to test the kit out between moving, work, trying to go back to school, etc. I have assembled the amp/components and obtained the proper PPU, but have yet to get my hands on a Famicom AV.
Anyways, I hope this info helps.
Thanks, I will definately give that a try next time I do another AV Famicom, I just went ahead and wired up a CXA1645 to a blank pcb, not difficult but time consuming.
Quote from: xenomus on August 17, 2010, 02:47:58 PM
Quote from: Hamburglar on August 10, 2010, 12:33:29 PM
Has anyone attempted to order the RGB amp/CXA1645 kits from http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO (http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO)? I wonder if they ship out of the country. I clicked the order link, but XP/Firefox can't display the page properly...so I can't run it through babelfish :( I'm going to do my re-designed Famicom next and would like it use their CXA1645 kit rather than wiring the whole thing up with a breadboard.
In response to your question, I used a shipping proxy based in Japan called http://www.sutocorp.com (http://www.sutocorp.com). I linked the specific order form link (http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/OrderForm.html (http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/OrderForm.html)) and specified which item I wanted (New Famicom RGB remodeling kit) and just to make sure, I left a note in the order pointing out which item I wanted on the product list page (http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/ProductsList.html (http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/ProductsList.html)).
It worked perfectly for me. You pay a 3000 yen deposit then pay the rest of the cost of the item + shipping once they receive it. No problems whatsoever. Unfortunately, I haven't had the chance to test the kit out between moving, work, trying to go back to school, etc. I have assembled the amp/components and obtained the proper PPU, but have yet to get my hands on a Famicom AV.
Anyways, I hope this info helps.
okay whatever I wired 5v into my encoder psu. I made a mishmash amp for the rgb signals here's the diagram lol
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff253/TheDrakon/tech/rgb%20nes/Drakonsuperampwrarv13.jpg)
???
Quote from: Drakon on August 31, 2010, 01:36:32 PM
okay whatever I wired 5v into my encoder psu. I made a mishmash amp for the intensity in my s-video cable to make the brightness correct here's the diagram lol
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff253/TheDrakon/tech/Drakonsuperampwrar.jpg)
so what's the best solution to remove the jailbars? Aside from that my picture quality is perfect
also what causes the jailbars? Is it something to do with the sync? Or is it the rgb lines? or both?
And is there a particular amp that's better at removing them?
my rig is an arcade rgb to s-video encoder. It works flawlessly with snes (needed 220uf 10v cap on rgb AND sync lines blah), genesis (needs nothing), arcade (needs nothing). But for some reason my rgb modded nes is on jailbar crack. Right now I'm using the pce amp and the amping is awesome but the bars aren't. For some reason my s-video encoder has the same issue with the playchoice ppu as it does with my snes....it needs a 100-220uf 10 v cap on the sync line otherwise it doesn't get sync. I'll try using a lm1881 and if that doesn't work...well.....the njm amp would be better?
my amp is this amp http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/console/nintendo/n64rgbbooster.htm (http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/console/nintendo/n64rgbbooster.htm) with a few added parts which is then fed into this amp http://playoffline.wordpress.com/mod/nesrgb/ (http://playoffline.wordpress.com/mod/nesrgb/) also with a lot of changed parts. It works amazingly
I'm using a rgb modded us toaster nes (pcb says 1987 not sure which revision that is). Anyway here's some pics of the painful work I've been doing
Here's a couple of pics of the system just after the ppu was finished being wired up
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff253/TheDrakon/tech/rgb%20nes/allwiredup.jpg)
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff253/TheDrakon/tech/rgb%20nes/allwiredup2.jpg)
Here's the workbench with my amps all wired up
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff253/TheDrakon/tech/rgb%20nes/workbench.jpg)
here's the rest of the workspace (mostly)
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff253/TheDrakon/tech/rgb%20nes/workbenchpartduex.jpg)
hmm....any way of making a high pass filter to get rid of the bars?
So, I'm working on my RGB kit for the Famicom AV and I'm getting close! But all I seem to get is pictures like these:
http://imgur.com/hqxwt.jpg (http://imgur.com/hqxwt.jpg)
http://imgur.com/hkDzg.jpg (http://imgur.com/hkDzg.jpg)
http://imgur.com/UK3CT.jpg (http://imgur.com/UK3CT.jpg)
It appears to be pulling sprite information from the wrong addresses, or something like that. It should be noted that I can't get the one actual Famicom game I have to load up. The only games that I can get to load are NES games thru a NES-to-Famicom converter. Sound comes through just fine. It's just the pictures are garbled. At least the colors are crisp and bold thanks to the RGB! But, yeah, this is something of an issue.
And I'm pretty sure it's not the fault of the converter, since I got NES games to play on the system with it just fine before I started the modding. The PPU I'm using is RP2C03B, which I think is compatible but I'm not 100% sure since my Japanese is rusty. (For reference: http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/ProductsList.html (http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/ProductsList.html) ; third item down.)
Any advice?
Quote from: xenomus on September 21, 2010, 12:32:16 PM
So, I'm working on my RGB kit for the Famicom AV and I'm getting close! But all I seem to get is pictures like these:
http://imgur.com/hqxwt.jpg (http://imgur.com/hqxwt.jpg)
http://imgur.com/hkDzg.jpg (http://imgur.com/hkDzg.jpg)
http://imgur.com/UK3CT.jpg (http://imgur.com/UK3CT.jpg)
It appears to be pulling sprite information from the wrong addresses, or something like that. It should be noted that I can't get the one actual Famicom game I have to load up. The only games that I can get to load are NES games thru a NES-to-Famicom converter. Sound comes through just fine. It's just the pictures are garbled. At least the colors are crisp and bold thanks to the RGB! But, yeah, this is something of an issue.
And I'm pretty sure it's not the fault of the converter, since I got NES games to play on the system with it just fine before I started the modding. The PPU I'm using is RP2C03B, which I think is compatible but I'm not 100% sure since my Japanese is rusty. (For reference: http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/ProductsList.html (http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/ProductsList.html) ; third item down.)
Any advice?
yikes, only time I had stuff like that happen was when some pins weren't connected, check your connections. I really gotta find a way to make a low pass filter to get rid of these stupid lines...
Did you order this kit?
(http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/images/FCRGBkit_L_010501.jpg)
I'd really like to get just the PCBs for this kit!!! I suppose I could just design my own.... hmmm... ??? :P
Quote from: xenomus on September 21, 2010, 12:32:16 PM
So, I'm working on my RGB kit for the Famicom AV and I'm getting close! But all I seem to get is pictures like these:
http://imgur.com/hqxwt.jpg (http://imgur.com/hqxwt.jpg)
http://imgur.com/hkDzg.jpg (http://imgur.com/hkDzg.jpg)
http://imgur.com/UK3CT.jpg (http://imgur.com/UK3CT.jpg)
It appears to be pulling sprite information from the wrong addresses, or something like that. It should be noted that I can't get the one actual Famicom game I have to load up. The only games that I can get to load are NES games thru a NES-to-Famicom converter. Sound comes through just fine. It's just the pictures are garbled. At least the colors are crisp and bold thanks to the RGB! But, yeah, this is something of an issue.
And I'm pretty sure it's not the fault of the converter, since I got NES games to play on the system with it just fine before I started the modding. The PPU I'm using is RP2C03B, which I think is compatible but I'm not 100% sure since my Japanese is rusty. (For reference: http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/ProductsList.html (http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/ProductsList.html) ; third item down.)
Any advice?
(http://gamesx.com/wiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=av:njmamp3.jpg)
Yes, that is the kit I got. I told of a way to order it through a shipping proxy on the previous page, if you are interested.
A minor update on my situation: I swapped the kit out for the original PPU and got the same graphical glitches which confirms that it's probably just some bad contacts between the socket and the board and not a problem on the RGB kit side. So next, I shall try cleaning and resoldering the contacts to the best of my ability.
I finally got around to give this new NES RGB mod a try. Video and color saturation wise is excellent, but It seems that I'm not the only one having the horrible "Jair bars" issue :( . Which is basically killing the purpose of having RGB :'( ...Here are a few pics showing my NES with the new RGB mod (gameplay taken directly from a crt tv screen, and using a RGB to component converter):
Super Mario Bros 3
(http://usera.imagecave.com/capcom2000/hpim0923.jpg)
Metroid
(http://usera.imagecave.com/capcom2000/hpim0927.jpg)
The camera didn't get the best video quality details on these shots, but you can clearly see the bars effect...
Also, I noticed that those bars get even worse if the recommended 68pf ceramic cap is installed in pin 24 (RD/OE) of the RP2CO3B (which seems to be necessary either way).So the problem is around that area....
Quick question, do the previous NES RGB amps also show the problem?...
Quote from: xenomus on September 24, 2010, 08:39:07 AM
Yes, that is the kit I got. I told of a way to order it through a shipping proxy on the previous page, if you are interested.
A minor update on my situation: I swapped the kit out for the original PPU and got the same graphical glitches which confirms that it's probably just some bad contacts between the socket and the board and not a problem on the RGB kit side. So next, I shall try cleaning and resoldering the contacts to the best of my ability.
On a brighter note, I can't see any jail bars! I'm eagerly waiting to see your final results for this =] By the way, which of the kits did you get, the multi av or RGB-only. It looks like they have 3 versions of each with different prices...is this for pre-assembled vs un-assembled or something else?
I'm having quite a jailbar problem here too. I'm also looking for a solution
Which amp design are you using? The NES seems to be very sensitive to noise, and many caps might have gone bad, so there could be a number of contributing factors. Here's what mine looks like (via XRGB-3):
(http://gamesx.com/wiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=av:nes_rgb_whatjbs_000.jpg)
Quote from: capcom2010 on October 01, 2010, 04:33:06 PM
I finally got around to give this new NES RGB mod a try. Video and color saturation wise is excellent, but It seems that I'm not the only one having the horrible "Jair bars" issue :( . Which is basically killing the purpose of having RGB :'( ...Here are a few pics showing my NES with the new RGB mod (gameplay taken directly from a crt tv screen, and using a RGB to component converter):
Metroid
(http://usera.imagecave.com/capcom2000/hpim0927.jpg)
Quote from: RGB32E on October 08, 2010, 11:13:08 PM
Which amp design are you using? The NES seems to be very sensitive to noise, and many caps might have gone bad, so there could be a number of contributing factors....
The latest RGB amplifier ( using the pair of NJM2267's)... :-\
Is that photo of yours taken out of a NES or Av Famicom system?....
...
Quote from: capcom2010 on October 09, 2010, 03:31:41 PM
The latest RGB amplifier ( using the pair of NJM2267's)... :-\
Is that photo of yours taken out of a NES or Av Famicom system?....
...
well that saves me a bit of work. I didn't make a njm based amp and I wasn't sure if it was my amp that was the problem. From what I found on the internet it seems certain models of the nes have this issue. So it LOOKS like the problem isn't the ppu or the amp but something to do with the system (bleh)
Quote from: capcom2010 on October 09, 2010, 03:31:41 PM
Quick question, do the previous NES RGB amps also show the problem?...
Yes it does. I've built 2 different types of amps and both had the lines. Heck even when I hookup my system without any amp I still get the lines.
I've tried this one that I made out of a modded mooseman amp
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff253/TheDrakon/tech/rgb%20nes/Drakonsuperampwrarv13.jpg)
And I've also tried the simple pce amp
http://www.gamesx.com/grafx/pce_rgb.jpg (http://www.gamesx.com/grafx/pce_rgb.jpg)
both have jailbars
And what do you mean that the 68pf cap is necessary? I don't have it installed at my graphics are fine except for the jailbars. I wonder if using a resistor on the rd/oe line would do anything?
Quote from: Drakon on October 10, 2010, 01:42:31 AM
So it LOOKS like the problem isn't the ppu or the amp but something to do with the system (bleh)
Seems to be a PPU digital inteference..
QuoteAnd what do you mean that the 68pf cap is necessary? I don't have it installed at my graphics are fine except for the jailbars. I wonder if using a resistor on the rd/oe line would do anything?
Well, most games work just fine with the RGB PPU , but others excibit some graphic problems (glitches or scrambled screen)....I can't recall who suggested adding a 68pf -and up ceramic cap to the RD / OE line , pin 24 to fix these problems....And it definitely works, I was having troubles with Megaman 2, added the cap, and the game worked perfectly afterwards....
Quote from: capcom2010 on October 10, 2010, 08:26:48 AM
Well, most games work just fine with the RGB PPU , but others excibit some graphic problems (glitches or scrambled screen)....I can't recall who suggested adding a 68pf -and up ceramic cap to the RD / OE line , pin 24 to fix these problems....And it definitely works, I was having troubles with Megaman 2, added the cap, and the game worked perfectly afterwards....
it was mooseman who came up with the 68 pf cap idea
http://playoffline.wordpress.com/mod/nesrgb/ (http://playoffline.wordpress.com/mod/nesrgb/)
My megaman 2 plays flawlessly except for the bubbleman stage which has some very minor graphic randomness. But it's so small that it's not even worth bothering with installing the cap. Right now my concern is just removing those stupid jailbars. I find it strange that adding the 68pf cap made the jailbars worse. Right now I'm grounding my video just to a random ground on the nes pcb instead of a ground wire on the ppu slot. Would that possibly be a part of the problem? Also my amp has power coming from a seperate psu. And I amp sync with an amp I built instead of using the nes video amp.
also step 5 of this site
http://jpx72.detailne.sk/modd_files/fc/avmod.htm (http://jpx72.detailne.sk/modd_files/fc/avmod.htm)
suggests that adding a cap on two ppu pins reduces the vertical bars when using a composite signal. Would doing this also help a rgb signal?
here's another POSSIBLE solution
http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=3057.msg42243#msg42243 (http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=3057.msg42243#msg42243)
again it's based on a composite signal and not rgb
I FIXED THE VERTICAL BARS/LINES/JAILBARS. Very exciting. All thanks to a brilliant idea from rt9342. The reason you get crazy lines is because moosman said you're supposed to keep pin 17 of the ppu attached to the nes pcb. This is INCORRECT (atleast for me). You should disconnect pin 17 from the nes pcb and wire it straight into your rgb connector as video ground. If you connect pin 17 of the ppu to the ground of the nes pcb that's what causes the noise making the massive vertical lines on the picture. When you keep pin 17 it on a seperate ground from the nes pcb the lines are still there but BARELY noticable and definitely not enough to make the picture look bad. rt9342, hats off to you sir.
Basically this rgb ppu (rp2c03b) has 2 ground pins. Pins 17 and pin 20. Pin 20 seems to be just a regular ground like the ground you get from a regular nes ppu. However pin 17 is NOT a regular common ground pin. According to rt9342 pins 17 and 20 are NOT connected inside the ppu. The reason is that pin 17 is a video ground ONLY. In fact it's ultra sensitive to everything so it should be ONLY hooked into video signal connections. On the regular nes ppu pin 17 doesn't do anything that's why the pcb has this pin connected to common ground.
Also major thanks to RGB32E. He also had some great ideas that wound up not really fixing the problem but still he was totally willing to help me in any way he could. Very great member on this forum
Okay this PPU is EXTREMELY sensitive. I hooked up the positive audio wire and got sound and the picture was still perfect but there was a slight buzz noise because the audio wasn't grounded. As soon as I hooked up the audio ground wire the picture goes a little off. The lines come back a tiny bit and other small things happen. In mario 3 if you scroll the screen during a stage faint diagonal lines appear. If the audio ground is left disconnected the picture is perfect and the diagonal lines go away. But you have to deal with a slight buzzing sound....man this is weird.
Which RGB amp did you used in the end?.. :o
I tried this, but it doesn`t work. The lines are still visible in Castlevania 2 and other "problem" titles.
I also tried lift Pin 17 without ground, but don`t make a difference.
Greetings Markus
Quote from: Moosmann on October 13, 2010, 02:37:58 AM
I tried this, but it doesn`t work. The lines are still visible in Castlevania 2 and other "problem" titles.
I also tried lift Pin 17 without ground, but don`t make a difference.
Greetings Markus
maybe your nes is a different model. Or maybe your setup is different. I'm using a rgb to s-video converter and when I had pin 17 connected to the nes pcb I was having the exact same type of picture as capcom2010. As soon as I removed pin 17 from the pcb and wired it into video ground the image completely cleaned up. I don't have a castlevania 2 but my mario 2 was by far the worst game I had in terms of video image full of lines. Switching between using pin 17 and the common ground for my video signal is really like night and day for that game and any other game. Using pin 17 doesn't 100% get rid of the lines but on my rig it gets rid of about 95% of them.
And capcom2010 for some reason amping the rgb on my rig works but doesn't look quite right. Since I'm using s-video I just wound up using the amp I made on the brightness of the s-video signal. Strangely the unamped signal that comes from the ppu is dark but has super strong colour saturation. So I actually didn't need to amp the colour at all just the brightness to make the picture perfect
Moosmann I read from other posts that different versions of the nes apparently have worse lines than others. And disconnecting pin 17 from the nes pcb and wiring it into video ground doesn't make anything worse. So there's really no harm in doing what I did. Maybe for your system it doesn't make a difference but for me it makes a MASSIVE difference. I hope other people who have lines as bad as capcom2010 try what I did to see how well this really works.
(by the way moosmann your amp rocks it's much stronger than the pce one I built)
Okay I did some more testing and wiring the pin 17 ground into the ground for my video amp does not damage to the picture. Not a big issues but someone pmed me asking about this so that's now the 3rd person who's come forward with this exact same issue.
Drakon, thanks for answering my questions. I just finished giving the mod a try.
Unfortunately, at least on my NES deck lifting pin 17 and grounding it (or leaving ti ungrounded) made no difference in signal quality for me. The jailbars in Megaman 2 stayed the same as normal.
Perhaps this mod hinges on differences between NES motherboard revisions.
Quote from: Arasoi on October 13, 2010, 10:14:33 AM
Drakon, thanks for answering my questions. I just finished giving the mod a try.
Unfortunately, at least on my NES deck lifting pin 17 and grounding it (or leaving ti ungrounded) made no difference in signal quality for me. The jailbars in Megaman 2 stayed the same as normal.
Perhaps this mod hinges on differences between NES motherboard revisions.
really? That's really weird. What's it grounded to? Make sure that whatever it's grounded to doesn't connect to the common ground of the nes (any ground connection that's not pin 17 from the ppu and make sure that pin 17 is DISCONNECTED from the nes pcb and not connected to the nes in any way.)
Maybe this also has to do with the type of rgb ppu you're using? I'm using a rp2c03b (atleast that's what it says on the chip). That's very odd because on my system it makes a massive difference on the picture quality. There's nothing I want more than to find a way to fix this problem for everyone. I wonder if it only shows up on a signal that's converted to s-video etc. Capcom2010 those line-tastic screenshots you took is that on a tv accepting the rgb signal or has it been converted into something else like s-video?
I can confirm I connected to a completely separate ground, it was not in any way associated/attached to the NES motherboard. No difference. I have RGB and svideo (through the JROK encoder in my NES) going to two monitors I am looking at, it made no difference in either.
The PPU I have is also a RP2C03B.
Quote from: Arasoi on October 13, 2010, 10:38:45 AM
I can confirm I connected to a completely separate ground, it was not in any way associated/attached to the NES motherboard. No difference. I have RGB and svideo (through the JROK encoder in my NES) going to two monitors I am looking at, it made no difference in either.
The PPU I have is also a RP2C03B.
I'm also using a rp2c03b
oh poo that's terrible. As you can see from my screenshots my picture's pretty darn perfect. Anyway my nes pcb says copyright 1987. Any other ways I can verify what revision of the nes pcb I'm using? I was really hoping this would be a universal fix and not something that would make people have to buy a certain model of the nes.....
wait.....you get a picture if pin 17 is connected to nothing?????
I do. I used Moosman's diagram on his site to make sure I was lifting the right pin. From his last post in here it seems he did also, though he would need to confirm.
Quote from: Arasoi on October 13, 2010, 11:03:13 AM
I do. I used Moosman's diagram on his site to make sure I was lifting the right pin. From his last post in here it seems he did also, though he would need to confirm.
I've never tried connecting pin 17 to nothing and seeing if I still get a picture. However here's the e-mail I got from rt9342
"I learned about the PPU's separate grounds by accident. When I first put a PPU socket in my NES, I left pins 14-17 disconnected, for the RGB outputs, and I figured, well, the PPU is already grounded by pin 20, so no need to ground pin 17. And there was no picture..... until I grounded pin 17, and all of a sudden, picture! Later, I pulled out the PPU and connected an ohm-meter across pins 17 and 20, and they were definitely not connected. That's how I found out - I'd doubt that any info on that exists on the internet - maybe you and I can help change that."
As you can see he didn't get any picture with pin 17 connected to nothing. So it's kinda strange that you do......
My playchoice board that the ppu came from says copyright 1986 and it's got a rp2a03e cpu. It's a dual moniter board. Don't know if there's something about that year/revision/type of pcb that gives me a different ppu...
took a pic of my tv it's much brighter than that it's just my camera being strange but you can still see the clearness
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff253/TheDrakon/tech/rgb%20nes/megaman2selectscreen.jpg)
Turn off the lights and photo the screen with no flash.
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n310/Protogem/MM2_RGB.jpg)
Anyway, I'm not sure why pin 17 doesnt need to be grounded on my NES and does on rt9342's. I double checked that I had the right pin, and tried everything again, and got the same result. Go figure.
I turned off the lights and took a pic with no flash. Probably need to adjust something on my camera :D
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n310/Protogem/mm2_ss_rgb.jpg)
Snapped this from my Holo3dgraph's RGBs input. The JBs are fairly negligible, at least compared to some other shots I've seen of folks trying to reduce them.
Quote from: Arasoi on October 14, 2010, 07:41:20 AM
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n310/Protogem/mm2_ss_rgb.jpg)
Snapped this from my Holo3dgraph's RGBs input. The JBs are fairly negligible, at least compared to some other shots I've seen of folks trying to reduce them.
that doesn't look half bad at all. Have any games that really make them go bad?
Oddly enough, not really. Megaman 2 is one of the games where JBs are more prevalent, along with Castlevania 2 so thats about as evident as they get. Games like Metroid seem to have none at all. Some of the interference there in the screencaps is due to the cheap Genesis 1 SCART cable I'm using, which puts a bit of a crosshatch pattern onto the image. I need to build a better one but haven't quite gotten around to it.
The JBs show up much more via the holo3dgraph, as opposed to my Sony PVM monitors where a few tweaks of the controls can erase them almost completely.
Quote from: Arasoi on October 15, 2010, 10:56:21 AM
Oddly enough, not really. Megaman 2 is one of the games where JBs are more prevalent, along with Castlevania 2 so thats about as evident as they get. Games like Metroid seem to have none at all. Some of the interference there in the screencaps is due to the cheap Genesis 1 SCART cable I'm using, which puts a bit of a crosshatch pattern onto the image. I need to build a better one but haven't quite gotten around to it.
The JBs show up much more via the holo3dgraph, as opposed to my Sony PVM monitors where a few tweaks of the controls can erase them almost completely.
okay that's really interesting. When I still had the bars megaman 2 was one of the games that didn't have it badly except for some bosses with all black backgrounds. But in comparison to other games like mario 2 and even tmnt the arcade game megaman 2 was much much better. I get the exact same cross hatch pattern on my image.
*edit* here's some screens
My capture card picks up some very very minor lines which don't show up on my tv
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff253/TheDrakon/tech/rgb%20nes/megaman2quick.jpg)
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff253/TheDrakon/tech/rgb%20nes/megaman2heat.jpg)
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff253/TheDrakon/tech/rgb%20nes/megaman2freeze.jpg)
Can the PPU swap be done on a NES toploader?
Drakon are you saying your wired pin 17 directly to the Scart socket ground? Or are you grounding it to a location on the NES PCB? The humming you get comes from the ground sharing of audio and video in a scart socket. I think there is a way to eliminate the humming if you can separate the ground pins in the socket from the ground pins for audio and run a separate ground wire for the length of the cable...need to research it more.
Hi, new to this thread, and I'm going to attempt this mod pretty soon. Anyways, I was reading about pin 17 being connected on a separate ground. So, I grabbed my PC10 board and took the ohm-meter to pins 17 and 20 on the DIP socket... and found that they are connected together on the board... So, great, another wrench in the jailbar puzzle?
Quote from: FA-MAS on October 19, 2010, 07:52:22 AM
Can the PPU swap be done on a NES toploader?
yes, it can be done on any model of the nes and famicom
Quote from: Xenogias on October 20, 2010, 09:53:47 AM
Drakon are you saying your wired pin 17 directly to the Scart socket ground? Or are you grounding it to a location on the NES PCB? The humming you get comes from the ground sharing of audio and video in a scart socket. I think there is a way to eliminate the humming if you can separate the ground pins in the socket from the ground pins for audio and run a separate ground wire for the length of the cable...need to research it more.
wired pin 17 straight into the scart socket and don't connect it to the nes pcb at all. First thing I tried was seperating the audio ground but it didn't work. The humming is caused by the fact that my audio isn't grounded at all.
If anyone bothers attempting my jailbar fix please remember not to ground the audio. In fact the only things my system has grounded is pin 17 of the ppu is grounded to my scart cord and obviously the ground of the ac adapter for the system. You have to make sure that no other grounds on the system are connected to anything external otherwise my jailbar fix doesn't work. As soon as I wire up the ground of the audio to anything the picture looks terrible but if I leave it disconnect things're rocking. Also keep in mind I amp my sync signal outside of the console and not through the internal amp as moosmann's guide suggests. Whatever causes the jailbars I'm guessing that it has something to do with the power in the machine. I've found some interesting threads on theories of what causes the vertical lines and how to fix them. The best one I found is on famicomworld but I can't access it right now for some reason (will post when it works again). Basically it's a thread where someone claims that a big capacitor that has something to do with converting the ac to dc is dried out and doesn't do a smooth job converting the electricity causing slight fluxuations in what's supposed to be smooth dc power. There's many guides out there like this one:
http://jpx72.detailne.sk/modd_files/fc/avmod.htm (http://jpx72.detailne.sk/modd_files/fc/avmod.htm)
telling you to wire a cap between the 5v and ground lines of the ppu. I'm guessing that this fix smoothes out the fluxuating power that's supposed to be smoothed out by a capacitor elsewhere on the system but has supposedly dried up and stopped working right because it's umpteen years old. I'm way too chicken to try these fixes right now especially considering that I've got things pretty much perfect by basically bypassing as much of the fluxuating ground connections of the system as possible.
another odd thing that happens is if I amp the rgb lines then the image has a white border on the right side of the graphics. It doesn't matter which amp I use they all give me the white border. I'm guessing this's caused by the same image distortion that creates the jailbars. I didn't fart around much with trying to fix this issue since I'm using s-video and amping the s-video brightness requires just one amp instead of 3. And amping the brightness of the image after it's been converted to s-video doesn't give me that weird white border on the right side.
This does concern me a bit and possibly my jailbar fix might only work on an image that's been converted to s-video and amped after it's converted. I don't have a rgb tv to test this fix on so keep that in mind when trying my work-around. If the problem is the power of the system (which RGB32E suspected all along) then my fix doesn't really eliminate the issue it just sort of works around it. Probably a better solution for this would be finding a way to measure the dc power going through the system and seeing exactly how smooth it's flowing. And if the power is a fluxuating dc instead of a proper one then as RGB32E suggested giving the system a new source of power might be the TRUE fix to this nasty problem.
I'd be interested to know which capacitors on the board are the ones that supposedly fail and create the noise that makes the JBs. It's not really hard to replace a cap or two and I'd be willing to give the fixes a try and post results.
Quote from: Arasoi on October 23, 2010, 05:45:05 AM
I'd be interested to know which capacitors on the board are the ones that supposedly fail and create the noise that makes the JBs. It's not really hard to replace a cap or two and I'd be willing to give the fixes a try and post results.
here's the thread discussing it
http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=3057.msg42243#msg42243 (http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=3057.msg42243#msg42243)
the nes has this cap too but it's inside of the system instead of the ac adapter. I'm guessing it's the big one sticking outside of the ac part of the system. But I can't say for sure. Good luck. I tried pming this guy asking him if it will work on a rgb system but his response was that something's wrong with my rgb setup even though lots of people have the same problem as me.... So I very much think this is worth trying
Well it's definitely not the power adapter, I plugged in a Genesis 1 AC adapter and the JBs remained.
The Genesis 1 adapter is DC though, would this bypass the AC/DC conversion cap inside? Or should I still try replacing the cap?
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n310/Protogem/cap.jpg)
I believe the two points to desolder are these:
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n310/Protogem/joints.jpg)
Quote from: Arasoi on October 23, 2010, 09:39:11 AM
Well it's definitely not the power adapter, I plugged in a Genesis 1 AC adapter and the JBs remained.
The Genesis 1 adapter is DC though, would this bypass the AC/DC conversion cap inside? Or should I still try replacing the cap?
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n310/Protogem/cap.jpg)
I believe the two points to desolder are these:
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n310/Protogem/joints.jpg)
yes that's the cap try giving that one a swap. I mentioned before the cap should be inside the system and not the ac adapter. I dunno if a genesis adapter would bypass it. The above thread from famicomworld mentioning this fix is meant for a composite video signal but I figure it's worth a try.
I'm no expert on this but I'm guessing that this fix here:
http://jpx72.detailne.sk/modd_files/fc/avmod.htm (http://jpx72.detailne.sk/modd_files/fc/avmod.htm)
at step 5 is the same concept? Using a cap to smooth the electricity going into the ppu?
I am willing to try both and ordered the components as such. I am a bit worried about the pin 20/40 mod as I already have the 68pf cap mod installed, which also goes to pin 20. It probably be allright (ground is ground) I suppose.
Quote from: Arasoi on October 23, 2010, 02:32:37 PM
I am willing to try both and ordered the components as such. I am a bit worried about the pin 20/40 mod as I already have the 68pf cap mod installed, which also goes to pin 20. It probably be allright (ground is ground) I suppose.
yeah obviously replacing the cap is the safer mod so try that one first. And yes ground is ground your system has many things tied into that very same ground. If you're worried you could disconnect the 68pf cap first it won't stop the system from running
That was one of the first things I tried when modifying my 1st version NES for RGB, replacing that cap, didn't do anything, lines were still there.
Quote from: Arasoi on October 23, 2010, 09:39:11 AM
Well it's definitely not the power adapter, I plugged in a Genesis 1 AC adapter and the JBs remained.
The Genesis 1 adapter is DC though, would this bypass the AC/DC conversion cap inside? Or should I still try replacing the cap?
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n310/Protogem/cap.jpg)
I believe the two points to desolder are these:
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n310/Protogem/joints.jpg)
Quote from: Hamburglar on October 24, 2010, 01:22:18 PM
That was one of the first things I tried when modifying my 1st version NES for RGB, replacing that cap, didn't do anything, lines were still there.
doh so I guess my fix is the only thing that works so far. Unless someone can find the trace(s) that're causing the interference and show us where to cut/rewire them.
Quote from: Drakon on October 24, 2010, 01:24:45 PM
Quote from: Hamburglar on October 24, 2010, 01:22:18 PM
That was one of the first things I tried when modifying my 1st version NES for RGB, replacing that cap, didn't do anything, lines were still there.
doh so I guess my fix is the only thing that works so far. Unless someone can find the trace(s) that're causing the interference and show us where to cut/rewire them.
The funny thing is the nicest picture I got from a RGB NES was from a NES top loader, even my AV Famicom has slight vertical bars.
One thing I never got around to trying was getting rid of that RF converter/regulator box and redoing the voltage regulator section.
I just performed the RGB mod, exactly as on mooseman's site and I'm having problems. I'm pulling sync off the yellow RCA jack and RGB from the correct pins off of the Playchoice 10 PPU. I've got it all running directly to an arcade monitor, no amp yet. And all i'm getting is white horizontal snow with some color thrown in. Anyone have any ideas on what would cause that?
Are the 68 or 120 cap required for the picture to be stable? That's the only thing I haven't done.
Quote from: Hamburglar on October 24, 2010, 01:22:18 PM
That was one of the first things I tried when modifying my 1st version NES for RGB, replacing that cap, didn't do anything, lines were still there.
Good to know. I will try the resistor mod for PPU pin 20/40 anyway and post my results.
Quote from: FA-MAS on October 24, 2010, 01:37:53 PM
I just performed the RGB mod, exactly as on mooseman's site and I'm having problems. I'm pulling sync off the yellow RCA jack and RGB from the correct pins off of the Playchoice 10 PPU. I've got it all running directly to an arcade monitor, no amp yet. And all i'm getting is white horizontal snow with some color thrown in. Anyone have any ideas on what would cause that?
Are the 68 or 120 cap required for the picture to be stable? That's the only thing I haven't done.
try adding a 100-220 uf 10v cap on the sync line with negative pointed towards the moniter. Mine wouldn't sync right until I did that. Either that or you wired something wrong (from how you describe it I think you wired something wrong).
anyway from reading this thread:
http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=601&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105 (http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=601&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105)
the only people who seem to have found a way to 100% get rid of the jailbars on a model 2 composite mod basically took the parts out of the model 1 that remove the jailbars. The two parts are a transistor used for amping and a filter.....I'm guessing the filter is what gets rid of the bars. They only label the filter has is "fc2" on the board and is doesn't say exactly what type of filter it is. I wish I could find some info on what this filter is and what it does. But anyway apparently adding these two parts to a model 2 completely eliminates the jailbars on composite video. So I'm wondering if it would do the same on rgb (except you'd need like 3 of them).
and oh look here's another composite mod chart with everyone's favourite filter. "fc2" is here as well.
(http://darthcloud.da.funpic.org/img/hvc-101_video.gif)
gonna e-mail darthcloud and ask if he knows
also arasoi on this thread
http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=2990.0 (http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=2990.0)
moosmann recommends wiring a 220 uf cap between 5v and gnd of the ppu. Doesn't mention which direction to solder it I assume the same way as that other site so that's something else to try maybe
lol found it again
(http://atariusa.com/Famicom_Schematics/FC%20RF%20Video%20(One%20Piece%20PCB)%20Schematic.png)
what are you fc2???
Quote from: Drakon on October 24, 2010, 10:45:01 PM
try adding a 100-220 uf 10v cap on the sync line with negative pointed towards the moniter. Mine wouldn't sync right until I did that. Either that or you wired something wrong (from how you describe it I think you wired something wrong).
There's absolutley no way I wired it wrong. Remove original NES PPU, place socket with pins 14-16 clipped and wires soldered to them. Wires soldered to their respective pins on a Jamma Fingerboard. Sync taken from the Yellow RCA jack also wired directly to it's respective pin on fingerboard. Verified continuity from PPU pins 14-16 to the fingerboard. Verified continuity of the rest of the pins to the NES board.
I will try the cap idea.
I built an RGB amp but I think I got a wrong transistor. I should get video without it right, just weaker?
Rebuilt the green channel of the RGB amp, and I still get the rolling snow, It's just green now.
Also, should the NES act just like an arcade board? If I only hook up green and sync, I should just get a black and white picture right?
I went direct, no amp no caps or anything and I adjusted the horizontal and vertical holds on my monitor and I am getting a picture. Think all I need is a functioning amp? Would someone be willing to build or sell me one? Anyone got a link to the ultimarc one if I decide to go that route?
(http://www.dappergamesmen.com/images/nes.jpg)
anyway I got in contact with darthcloud and he says fc2 is just a ferrite core. He says it's the entire amp that gets rid of the bars. I tried running an unamped s-video brightness wire through the nes composite video amp to see if it would clean up the image but it didn't display a picture. blah
why would green and sync give you a black and white picture?
Also did you try wiring the ground from the system onto your fingerboard at spots like video ground, audio ground?
ahh here we go
(http://www.nesmuseum.com/images/nesvideo.png)
ferrite bead
Yeah, I don't know enough to tell you that if you hook up just sync and green, you still get a picture, only black in white. It does work though.
I ordered an RGB amp from ultimarc. I figured it cost less than the parts I'd end up buying to build another one. I'll wait for it and post my results.
Quote from: FA-MAS on October 25, 2010, 09:36:38 AM
Yeah, I don't know enough to tell you that if you hook up just sync and green, you still get a picture, only black in white. It does work though.
I ordered an RGB amp from ultimarc. I figured it cost less than the parts I'd end up buying to build another one. I'll wait for it and post my results.
did you atleast get the picture looking less distorted than the above screenshot? And also with all 3 colours working?
It's actually a pretty old monitor. I'm thinking that's the best it's gonna get on that thing.
I got my Ultimarc RGB amp and hooked it up. I'm still not getting any video. I really need some help with this.
Do you use this Ultimarc amp? (the board on the right)
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n310/Protogem/NESguts.jpg)
I don't know about your setup, but the sync on mine needed to be run through a sync cleaner board before it was stable. If you aren't getting any signal at all it's problem a sync issue.
fa-mas when I said maybe you didn't wire it right I didn't mean you wired the ppu to the system wrong. I meant you wired the rgbs and ground to the moniter wrong maybe. Seriously try wiring up a lm1881 circuit to clean up the sync. And try adding a 220 uf 10v capacitor to the sync line with the negative connector going into the moniter. I found that wiring up a lm1881 removes the need for me to wire up a 220 uf cap. But a small cap is much cheaper than the sync cleaner :P
the issues you describe sound like the moniter isn't getting the right type of sync signal. Either the signal isn't clean enough for it or it isn't strong enough or maybe even both.
wait....am I the first person who got this working without building a sync cleaner or sync amp?
I actually already have a sync cleaner that I can try. I'm also gonna try the caps on the sync line. And yes I'm sure I'm hooking it up to the monitor right, I'm using a jamma fingerboard and I know the cab is jamma compliant, and I'm wiring to the correct contacts.
Arasoi, yep that's the amp I got.
I was reading up on the ultimarc and the site says it will also amp/filter sync. So maybe I should try putting sync in it directly from the ppu?
The sync from mine is tapped from the add on board near the yellow RCA jack (sync replaces composite video), it should work tapped off the PPU just fine though.
Woohoo, got it. What it ended up being was the way I was testing it. I wasn't drawing the +5v and GND from the NES itself to power my RGB amp and Sync Cleaner. Once I did that and tied both of them into those +5v and GND, the magic happened. Then I hooked it up to my RGB to YUV converter and it's all good. I see a couple of graphical glitches so I'll have to add the cap.
Thanks for the help guys.
RGB via composite connection
(http://www.dappergamesmen.com/images/composite.jpg)
RGB via component
(http://www.dappergamesmen.com/images/component.jpg)
fantastic fa-mas that looks soooooooo nice! You inspired me to try farting around with how stuff is powered since you fixed your system by powering the amp from the console. So I tried powering my amp from the console and that made the jailbars worse. Then I tried powering the ppu from a seperate psu outside of the console and that made the jailbars worse too. Then I wired everything back up.....and added a wire from ppu pin 20 outside of the system. I kept pin 20 connected to the pcb as well and attached the wire from it to my video circuit and wouldn't you know.....my picture is now 100% perfect and my audio buzzing went away....I have absolutely no idea why this worked. Strangely enough adding the ground connection from pin 20 of the ppu to my circuit has a different effect on the video than adding the ground from the audio plug. I figured since pin 20 is connected to the pcb that wiring it into my rig would be the same effect as wiring ground from anywhere on the board.....man was I wrong....
I'm now curious if wiring your amp power on different places on the pcb will have different effects. And I didn't get a good stable picture until everything was wired into the ground wire of my s-video cable. So there's a good chance that my jailbar fix only works on s-video
After I got it working, I was noticing slight jailbars and graphical glitches. So I put the 68uf cap on and it took away the graphical glitches but made the jailbars a little more noticable. I'm wondering since you connect the cap between the oe/od line and ground, if maybe the jailbars is actually a grounding issue, or some kind of interference along those lines.
Hi, does the NES Powerpak have Save States working perfectly when used with an RGB modded NES / Famicom on the games with supported mappers ? I ask since a someone has managed to get save states working with some games on the NES Powerpak (normally the NES Powerpak only supports saving your game in games that had a battery backed save feature to start with like Zelda 1, until this guy achieved the implementation of save states) ;-
http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=6024&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 (http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=6024&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)
Or does it lead to corruption in the game or other problems?
What a dream it would be... flash cart + save states + RGB + 29" Trinitron / IN76 projector :)
I got my hands on an "untested" RP2C03B from a PC10 board for a couple of GBP and I have a USA NES coming in the mail with serial number below 1 million, and I'm getting ready to do the mod.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Quote from: FA-MAS on October 30, 2010, 06:27:29 AM
After I got it working, I was noticing slight jailbars and graphical glitches. So I put the 68uf cap on and it took away the graphical glitches but made the jailbars a little more noticable. I'm wondering since you connect the cap between the oe/od line and ground, if maybe the jailbars is actually a grounding issue, or some kind of interference along those lines.
yes you're correct it's a grounding issue. I used to have huge jailbars on my image. I wired pin 17 of the ppu which is video ground into the video ground only and not into the pcb of the nes. I also added a wire from pin 20 of the ppu which is general ground to my circuit. I also left pin 20 connected to the nes pcb. This has made the jailbars go away. Strangely powering the ppu from an alternate power source makes the jailbars worse.
oh also fa-mas what model number is your ppu? I still havn't really seen any graphical glitches from my ppu that I wouldn't get from a normal composite ppu
*edit* okay I did some more testing and it seems that the majority of the problem was attaching video ground to different spots on the pcb. Keeping video ground wired onto pin 20 of the ppu while keeping that pin connected to the pcb as well gets rid of the jailbars for me and fixes all issues I was having.
Wow I just tried my newly arrived NTSC USA NES (I am in England) for the first time before modding it to RGB and boy is there a BIG difference between my PAL NES and this NTSC NES's picture with composite video.
Have a look at the picture below... the first one shows what PAL NES looks like in composite. It's HORRIBLE, nothing like the NTSC version (2nd and 3rd pictures). Note with PAL NES the VERY ragged edges on everything, the sprites being so 'pixel scrambled' that you can hardly appreciate them at all, and there is a herringbone pattern over all the colours. This is the output of my PAL NES, a late board revision version (NES CPU 11, 1987), a Mattel board version, serial number PM694040, model NESE001 (GBR).
Is it any wonder I was so desperate to get a much better RGB picture out of a NES LOL...
In contrast my newly arrived NTSC USA NES is so way better it's shocking. Picture is full screen on NTSC NES instead of having nasty black borders top and bottom on PAL NES, and the music on the NTSC NES (with NTSC USA Super Mario Bros 1) is the right speed (same as arcade) compared to PAL NES (with PAL UK Super Mario Bros 1) which plays the music too fast. I am getting slightly reluctant to convert the NTSC one to RGB now!
My NTSC NES is serial N0639771, i.e. below 1 million, and has a Toshiba TC74HC373P and all HC and H version chips, no LS ones. Should work with Powerpak when I finally buy one I suppose.
The NES is being displayed here on an Infocus IN76 projector. Any vertical or horizontal lines (very wide spacing!) that you see are a result of my DIY screen made from A3 sheets of paper LOL. NTSC picture is a bit softer than the PAL picture even with the heavy sharpening that I tend to use on the pj settings. On my NTSC NES I see only the tiniest hint of jail bars at all and only on the browns and then only when I see a large area of color. About a 5 percent amount of bars. I wonder how much bars I will see when it's RGB modded LOL. Also I see that the sky in Super Mario Bros is more purple than I would like, on the NTSC NES image, which should go back to a blue on RGB mod I think [later edit: nope, the RGB modded sky is purple on my IN72 projector but blue on my 14" Sony FD Trinitron TV!]
Also included a pic. of my PPU scavenged from a PC10 Single (?) monitor PCB sat waiting to be added. I have ordered the 40 pin socket for the PPU, I bought one like the one on the PC10 board (which was a standard one I think, very tight fit, was rather difficult to remove the PPU, I did it as carefully as I could, levering it out a little each side at a time with a penknife (I have no special tools to do this yet), and I also ordered a Turned pin socket which is the precision version (I think) of the same socket, with 4 connecting bridges of plastic for greatest strength, and gold plated inner for the pins for best contact.
I plan on buying a desoldering iron next. Hope I get the right one ???
Just thought some of you in NTSC land would like to see what the PAL NES's output looks like... ;D
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Rest of pic's ;-
This is my NTSC NES via composite, unmodded.
Rest of pic's. No jail bars on NTSC low serial number NES via composite, unmodded so far.
My PPU from PC10 Single (?) monitor pulled out of socket with my penknife, ready to go into my USA NES.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Thought it was important to add here just a few other things for those considering doing what I did and getting a USA NES from overseas... My used PAL UK NES came with a 9V DC (NOT AC) PSU of 2 Amp's capacity (was the power adapter from a BT Home Hub router apparently so it says on the upper side of it!) with centre positive (tip positive) and this PSU's plug fits perfectly in the PAL NES and works perfectly with my PAL NES, tested for many hours, NES does not get above a little warm and PSU stays just a little warm as well. UK NES takes (so it says on it's label) 9V AC 1.3A. I plugged it into my USA NES and it fits perfectly, no problems, USA NES seems to stay the same, getting hardly even a little warm after a couple of hours of use, and again PSU staying only a little warm. USA NES rating is AC 9V 850mA according to it's label. Also the original NES joypads from my PAL NES work perfectly on my USA NES.
When I tried to use my UK Game Genie for NES, with Super Mario Bros (UK PAL game) in my USA NES it didn't work despite many attempts at plugging and replugging. Even though I swapped over my known reliable 72 pin connector from my PAL to my NTSC NES. This seemed to be because you still need to use an NTSC USA game in the GG for it to detect the CIC chip (lockout chip correctly)? Just a guess. Anyway it was either that or connection problems from dirt or compatibility problem due to using UK GG on USA NES. I didn't know. So I ripped off pin 4 from the lockout chip from my USA NES using a medium sized safety pin, then the game loaded in the GG on my 2nd attempt. So I am guessing it was a region lockout issue? Anyway the SMB1 PAL UK game works on the USA NES full screen but the music runs far too fast on the USA NES. Same results with UK game used with GG, or by just the same UK game by itself (no GG used) in the USA NES console. So looks like I do have to buy USA games for it. Also did CIC chip lockout pin 4 removal on PAL NES but it bent my medium sized safety pin so I needed the next size up, and then it worked. I bent the leg of the chip a bit then cracked the leg off the chip with the tip of the safety pin by levering against the body of the chip lengthways (tricky) instead of levering against the other legs of the chip, so as not to break any of the other legs of the CIC chip.
Hope this helps anyone else who is thinking about doing this. Attached is a pic' of my UK mains adapter that I use with my USA NES model NES001.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
that's funny my ppu is......white.
anyway since I finally got rid of the jailbars here's some s-video eye candy
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff253/TheDrakon/tech/rgb%20nes/metalgear3.jpg)
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff253/TheDrakon/tech/rgb%20nes/megalgear.jpg)
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff253/TheDrakon/tech/rgb%20nes/megaman.jpg)
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff253/TheDrakon/tech/rgb%20nes/megaman5.jpg)
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff253/TheDrakon/tech/rgb%20nes/megaman4.jpg)
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff253/TheDrakon/tech/rgb%20nes/megaman3.jpg)
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff253/TheDrakon/tech/rgb%20nes/megaman2.jpg)
looks way better on my tv ;D
take a look, my ppu is white. Same thing as what you have? Mine came from a dual moniter playchoice that says 1986 on it
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff253/TheDrakon/tech/rgb%20nes/whiteppu.jpg)
@Drakon, I have 5 of these Playchoice 10 PCB's, I got them all for 3 GBP total (!), they are all untested :-\, and I chose the worst looking board amongst them to take the PPU from, in fact I just noticed that there is some white coloured powder deposit / dried liquid towards one end of this board around a few components which looks as if one of the capacitors may have leaked or something, I just hope that the PPU is not dead :-\. However if it is, no great loss for 3 quid.
I was told they were Twin monitor board(s?) but I'm not so sure, I think they are Single monitor versions, I got them off Ebay. I have a feeling that they are boards salvaged by a person who worked at the place where the cab's were and that the cab's were scrapped. Just a guess. Or else how does someone come to have 5 untested PC10 boards to sell?! ??? Anyway I snapped them up for peanuts.
I have taken a photo of the board that I took the PPU from, see picture below. It says copyright 1986 Nintendo and PCH1-04-CPU. Serial no. C013507. I have entered the rest of the boards' serial numbers in the KLOV link below (Killer List Of Videogames, Playchoice 10 Arcade machine / PCB Census). The PPU had NO heatsink (I have one other board where the PPU is without a heatsink), reason unknown unless it melted off LOL. The remaining 3 boards have heatsinks.
http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=9043 (http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=9043) , it's quite a popular system, and I see the boards and parts come up on Ebay regularly.
I have one board serial C-008239 which has the WHITE ceramic PPU on it like yours, the rest are the same browny purpley mix color (I assume ceramic). The white ceramic PPU is still RP2C03B, with gold legs on the chip. The PPU and CPU and Z80 CPU all have light blue colored sockets on them on this board (it's an early board and an early version of the chip, just like when someone on the forums had a Mostek 6502 white ceramic version chip from early production.
I decided to extract the rest of the PPU's from their PCB's. Actually, I just spent a rather irritating hour or more afterwards unbending the pins on some of the PPU's. When I remove a PPU with my penknife the legs don't seem to suffer hardly if at all, but just noticed as I was extracting the PPU's that one of the PPU's on one of the boards had been mashed into the board by some previous owner / idiot having something pressing hard against the board where it has pressed sideways heavily on the heatsink and even cracked the PPU socket and damaged it quite a bit. I'm still unbending the pins.
Maybe one of these PPU's works and is usable?! :-\
Cheers,
Alistair G.
I don't know how anyone else is taking out their PPU's from their sockets ??? but I used the small blade on my penknife pictured below, the blade is about an inch long. I put the top of the blade (the approx. 1mm thick part) against the very inside of the first few legs and lever the chip up by pressing the knife sideways just a little against the legs and pressing downwards a little against the socket, and lever the chip about 1mm up or less on the left then the right, by pulling up the handle end of the penknife, then repeat, then turn the board round 180 degrees and repeat until the chip comes out. It suprises me how powerful the grip of the socket is on the PC10 PCB, maybe because of heat and it being in so long, I think from a video I saw on Youtube (search for "NES RGB" and it's the first one that comes up) that the "turned pin" type is much easier to deal with i.e. the chip presses into the socket fairly easily with your thumb, but I dread to think how much force I would need to put these PPU's back into their sockets on the PC10 board...
Is there a special tool I should be using specifically for this exact PPU removal task? Anyone got a link?
Cheers.
Alistair G.
The PPU is shaped a little funny, but a standard IC puller should do the job. The idea is that you want all the pins to come up at the same time so that they don't get bent away from a straight Z-axis. If you do bend them, there also tools to straighten them.
"IC Puller" on Google has this link right up top, and I'm sure there are other vendors where you live:
http://www.futurlec.com/Tools-IC.shtml (http://www.futurlec.com/Tools-IC.shtml)
I used one of those small flat head screwdrivers. Just took my time and it came up no problem. The pins on the rgb ppu are MUCH stronger than the composite ppu pins. Yeah my playchoice board has the blue sockets too. Guess I got an older one. Anyway did a bit more testing today and disconnecting the pin 20 wire from my s-video ground almost had no effect on the picture. So I guess that maybe fixing the jailbars just has to do with what part of the pcb you wire video ground to? Maybe..
Allright, so I got in a set of 1000uf caps and tried the jailbar trick on this page:
http://jpx72.detailne.sk/modd_files/fc/avmod.htm (http://jpx72.detailne.sk/modd_files/fc/avmod.htm)
I had my doubts as this was meant for composite video, and unfortunately they were well founded as the cap had no effect on the jailbars.
Since the jailbars on my unit really are hardly noticeable I think I will end experimentation at this point and work on something else, namely adding the Famicom's 15 pin accessory port into my NES.
darn. Thanks for taking the time to test this out. I'm pretty convinced that the best solution for jailbars is how you have things grounded. When I rewire my grounds the picture noticably changes
*edit* okay so I picked up a copy of kirbys adventure and noticed some stages on it had weird glitches (bottom menu was moving up an down heavily). So I tried some rewiring. I made ppu pin 20 my video ground. Ppu pin 17 I wired into my sound amp ground just because the picture was mega messed if pin 17 was grounded into nothing. I kept audio ground from the system disconnected since wiring a ground from ppu pin 20 into my video circuit grounds audio anyway and connecting audio ground from the rca jack makes the picture worse for some reason. Doing this got rid of all the video glitches and the picture noticably improved. The jailbars and various other picture issues seem to be completely caused by how my grounds are wired. I'm gonna keep trial and erroring this and make a diagram of how my system grounds are wired once I'm done. The more I mess with the way things are grounded the better the picture becomes. That includes jailbars as well as various other video glitches/messed up effects depending on what's happening.
*edit* sorry for the delay in my progress I've been busy doing a commissioned nes rgb mod. I have improved things since I last posted will just have to wait for updates. Meanwhile check out my project log for comparison screenshots!
http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=4225.0 (http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=4225.0)
*edit*
Today I wired my custom amp into the nes power and it doesn't work right at all. But it works fine from an external psu. Weird.
Looking to sell off my RGB modded NES if anyone's interested
BTW I finally received my "standard" 40 pin IC sockets for the PPU (to be used as an alternative choice to the turned pin ones that I already have, depending on which I prefer) and the fit is lovely, just a nice moderate insertion force only needed, and looks to be a very good contact (contacts on both sides of the pin). All my sockets have gold contacts / pins. Unfortunately the seller's picture did not match the socket and I was expecting 3 cross braces on the socket (one in the middle) but mine only have 2, one at each end, so the socket bends easily :-[
I did one half of the "stereo" audio mod and it was nerve wracking so the other half will have to wait for a bit. My desoldering iron came from Maplin but it was 30W not 40W like they told me, so I have to return it. I have a 50W normal iron which works very fast and I don't want to heat up the board for a prolonged time with the low power iron...
My NTSC NES with early serial no. below 1 million seems to glitch every couple of minutes in my newly aquired first NTSC NES game (Super Mario Bros 1 revision A) i.e. the screen glitches but it's like a vertical blank problem and only lasts a fraction of a second and the game plays perfectly and is reliable otherwise and finally the music is playing at the correct speed compared to the PAL version.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Alistair,
Could you go into more detail about the glitch? I'm having some problems with my NES as well, but I am not sure what you mean when you say "vertical blanking".
I've been trying to catch my NES doing it so that I can record it, but it doesn't happen often enough.
Thanks,
Chris
okay so I've been rgb modding another nes and made some interesting discoveries. Yes it had jailbars, yes I got rid of them by my patented re-wiring of the video grounds. But here's the strange thing, after I made the amps/encoder board run off of the nes power I had to re-wire my grounds to make the jailbars go away and the picture very nice and clean. The ppu in this system is the darker coloured one (not the white one) and the nes pcb looks a little different from the first one. So there might not be a 100% perfect way to wire video grounds that will work on all systems and ppus. But luckily re-wiring grounds so far has fixed all combinations of ppus and nes you just have to do some trial and error. I've discovered that you need to connect all of your video circuit grounds either to ppu pin 17 or ppu pin 20 making sure that ppu pin 17 stays disconnected from the nes pcb. I can tell you what I know so far....
Keeping ppu pin 17 seperate from the nes pcb doesn't at all affect how the ppu runs. Also using this pin for ground on different parts of your video circuit really does help clean up the jailbars as long as it's kept seperate from the nes pcb. So keeping ppu pin 17 seperate from the nes pcb is very important.
Keeping ppu pin 20 attached to the nes pcb is necessary. Grounding parts of your video circuit to just a regular ground connection on the edge of the nes made the jailbars worse. But grounding video amps/encoder boards to ppu pin 20 instead of another spot cleans up the jailbars.
Using the nes to power amp/encoder boards changes the way that grounds need to be wired up. But for anything on your video circuit like general video ground, rgb amp, amps for s-video/encoded signals, and rgb to s-video/component encoder boards you SHOULD attach the grounds of these components to either ppu pin 20 or ppu pin 17 to clean up the video jailbars. Also keeping audio ground disconnected might help the jailbars.
I really hope this helps people who have annoying jailbars. I've only done these fixes on a system that's being encoded to s-video and havn't tested it on a rgb screen. Doing this won't 100% get rid of the jailbars but it gets rid of about 95% of them basically to the point where you really can't see them anymore. Also it fixes other video issues I came across like a bright white border on the right side of graphics. And in some cases a dark smear on the right side of graphics.
oh and ps. Don't run the ppu off of a seperate power supply from the nes this just makes the jailbars go into full blown insanity ;D
I am doing the NJM2267 circuit on a Turboduo and quick question. Everything on my PCB is sharing the same ground, is that sometimes a bad idea? I am just wondering if this is the cause of my jailbars and ghosting in my circuit. I am more wondering if it is necessary to split up the ground rails (although ground is ground so it shouldn't matter). I am also going to try and connect my ground to a different part of the PCB (although I have no idea why this would affect jailbars, unless there is alot of interference near there?). ???
Quote from: Jibbajaba on December 08, 2010, 08:11:38 AM
Alistair,
Could you go into more detail about the glitch? I'm having some problems with my NES as well, but I am not sure what you mean when you say "vertical blanking".
I've been trying to catch my NES doing it so that I can record it, but it doesn't happen often enough.
Thanks,
Chris
Certainly, sorry it took so long but I only just got round to filming it with my Sony PC110E video camera and then converting it. Here is what I am seeing ;-
Graphics glitch on USA NTSC NES with NES SMB 1 Rev. A, NES serial no. below 1 million (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlpz5OlXdB8#)
The rolling horizontal line is of course an artefact of my camera / TV interaction and is not the glitch itself. Read on LOL.
This is the Graphics glitch on my USA NTSC NES with NES Super Mario Bros. 1, Rev. A, i.e. USA region NTSC version of this game, my NES has serial no. below 1 million, actually N0639771, it's a revision 4 (NES-CPU-04) PCB. Look at 0:12 seconds in and 0:14 seconds in, there is a very brief black and white horizontal "stripe" half way up the screen in the middle, one mario height above Mario himself. Maybe a "vertical blanking" problem associated with the PPU? Not even sure what I mean myself really. This NES has a Toshiba TC74HC373P and all HC and H version chips, no LS ones. You are looking at the Composite output of the NES going into my Sony 29" KV-29K5U Trinitron TV with maximum sharpness on the TV. I thought at first that it was happening only with my Game Genie but it happens without it, as shown here.
The glitch is sometimes repeatable when you jump up at certain positions (well it's a bit transient even then!) and seems to happen once every minute or so (maybe less). It's quite annoying. Maybe they fixed this with a later PCB? Come to think of it, I don't remember ever seeing this on my late PAL NES with SMB 1 from SMB / Duck Hunt cart.
Here is a picture of my PAL PCB, and next post a pic' of my NTSC NES that has the glitch.
Does yours do this as well? Or is your glitch a different one?
Cheers,
Alistair G
Here is my USA NTSC NES that glitches.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Quote from: duo_r on December 14, 2010, 05:47:27 AM
I am doing the NJM2267 circuit on a Turboduo and quick question. Everything on my PCB is sharing the same ground, is that sometimes a bad idea? I am just wondering if this is the cause of my jailbars and ghosting in my circuit. I am more wondering if it is necessary to split up the ground rails (although ground is ground so it shouldn't matter). I am also going to try and connect my ground to a different part of the PCB (although I have no idea why this would affect jailbars, unless there is alot of interference near there?). ???
the njm circuit do you mean njm video amp? The video amp should have all grounds connected. I'm confused.....do you plan on using this amp on a rgb nes? Because this is the rgb nes mod thread not the turboduo thread. If you mean jailbars on a rgb nes then worry not. As I've been telling the rest of the internet my rgb nes had jailbars with no amp attached to it so obviously your amp isn't the cause of jailbars. Like I stated in the above post it has to do with the wiring of the grounds of your video circuit. Once I rewired my grounds magic happened and jailbars disappeared.
live_steam_mad: how often does that glitch happen? I don't have any nes models that're that old so I can't see for myself
*edit* okay I just made the njm amp from the wiki and man what an awesome amp! It's the perfect brightness
where can I get a good RGB PPU? I know they come out of playchoice, vs, titlers,
was it also included in the Sharp Famicom TV?
in any case, I'm having little luck on ebay or auctions.yahoo.co.jp I saw a kit on yahoo auctions japan yesterday but somebody sniped me when I was sleeping.
I also found this site,
http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/ProductsList.html (http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/ProductsList.html)
now do you need a specific type of Famicom or NES for these to work?
I have several Famicom Twins right now but nothing else. From google translate it seems that that guy sells kits for AV Famicoms so should I pick up an AV Famicom? or could I work it into one of my Famicom Twins (I would rather work it into one of my existing consoles)
I also found this site
http://moddedbybacteria.freeforums.org/the-rgb-nes-t994-10.html (http://moddedbybacteria.freeforums.org/the-rgb-nes-t994-10.html)
and this site
http://baku.homeunix.net/RGB/RGB_FC/RGB_FC.html (http://baku.homeunix.net/RGB/RGB_FC/RGB_FC.html)
so again, if anyone has any ideas on where to buy NES RGB PPUs that would be great, I am thinking that guy in the first link is selling kits, and I'll buy one from him, but I want to know if those will only work with AV Famicoms.
Thanks
Playchoice 10 PCB's (with RP2C03B PPU in a socket) come up on Ebay at least once every 3 or 4 weeks. Some go for about ten GBP, some for 30 GBP or so, but not much more than that. Most still have their PPU. Some have no heatsink on the PPU. Some have PPU missing. A lot are untested and seem to come from UK sellers (nearly all UK sourced ones have Brent Leisure stickers on them it seems, whoever they were?).
Cheers,
Alistair G.
ah, so I should be checking ebay.co.uk
thanks for the tip.
HVC-101 able to be modded?
I haven't seen any info other than someone selling this:
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16290 (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16290)
I've left my NES sitting in San Antonio, alongside my playchoice board, for at least a couple of years. I just don't have the time or drive to make the mod happen. Now that I've seen 1) the HVC-101 (which I didn't know existed, I though there was just the bubble-top NES2), and 2) that it has been RGB-modded, I'd prefer that for space, top-loading, standard Nintendo AV output, and lack of needing to hack up the case itself.
Drakon, what would you charge me to do every possibly improvement you've found to give me an amazing video output? I read your post elsewhere about the AV Famicom having a superior picture when modded, which is what lead me to shift gears on hardware desires. Stereo mixing would be amazing as well, if you're comfortable with that. A potentiometer for adjustment would be handy, so I can tweak to my liking.
I'm content with s-video output, if that's your forte. My Aptus-1 is a failure compared to running s-video right out of my SNES...unless you suggest that I shell out for the Premium RGB --> component converter from the same company, and go RGB all around from NES to N64.
On a side note, what would you charge me to fix the Japanese RGB N64 I purchased? I think it needs an amp at minimum. It works, but it's unplayable because of the dimness. The quality is unacceptable as well.
OK so I last night cut off my Composite PPU from my USA NTSC Toaster NES. Just checked the traces on the PCB and I did no damage yet. I checked the traces and solder pads with a magnifying loop (8x) (and also later on checked with the loupe that I did not bridge any connections with the desoldering of the legs that remained in the PCB that needed removing). When cutting the legs of the PPU I used the silver coloured tool which is shown in the picture attached. Not sure what this tool is actually for, it's made in Germany and probably more than 25 years old, I inherited it from my late father. It's jaws are curved upwards in the vertical axis which is very strange. Anyway it worked a treat for *almost* cutting through the legs at the top of the PPU chip. After I had used this silver tool on every leg of the PPU, I then used the Tamiya brand Modeller's Side Cutters (straight edged) as shown in the photo's that follow (Google Picassa link in next post, below) to snip completely through each leg at the top (you get a loud click as it cuts through each one, worked great).
Then I desoldered the legs which remained embedded in the PCB, by gripping the PCB by the top right corner of the component side of the board in a mini table vice (smooth jaws) and using an Antex 50W TCS series soldering iron set to medium temperature with the 1mm single eliptical faced, chamfered (angled) bit (they are interchangeable) (I prefer more powerful irons in general LOL) along with a little Deans brand Racing Solder (for RC cars) to get some heat conduction, I held the iron bit against each connection on the solder side of the board for about 8 seconds or so whilst simultaneously pulling on the leg of the chip left embedded in the board on the component side with a pair of Tamiya brand long nose pliers with smooth jaws, and pulled each PPU leg out. I only pulled at the leg whilst the leg was being heated. The smooth jaws limited the grip that I got on the leg on purpose so as not to tear a trace or bend the board or fracture anything.
I must say it was quite easy and enjoyable, except for pins 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, and 20 which were an absolute bitch to remove as they refused to come out without quite a few minutes total spent on each one pulling and twisting (without bending the board too much I hope). Of course, I only heated each connection for about 10 seconds maximum each time and tried removing it then waited for it to cool down and then repeated until each one of the difficult ones came out.
Pic's in the link in the following post of the operation and of how the board looks now.
I would like to get an RGB to component converter for use with my RGB modded NES and Infocus IN76 projector and use a component video switcher or my Sony STRDA1200ES AV amplifier to switch between the component connections, since I normally use a Component connection on my projector for my Pioneer LX60D DVD / HDD recorder. I use HDMI and analog audio for my PS3 at the moment LOL. I listen almost always on headphones to watch "TV" with.
NEStopia 1.40 has an option in options/video/palette to change from YUV to RGB so you can preview the change to using an RGB PPU in a NES emulator. Suddenly SMB becomes like the box art LOL.
BTW my video projector shows very vibrant composite colours from my NES with no interference on the picture at all. But it's got the Composite color palette and the "vertical lines have zig zags" problem that the Composite PPU generates.
Before I did this PPU removal I reconnected this my USA NTSC Toaster NES with serial number below 1 million (N0639771) to my Infocus IN76 projector via composite lead (after I had just modded it for stereo audio with a quick soldering of cables, just before my hot glue gun to arrived) and checked and I got no white borders anywhere with the standard composite PPU
Best Regards,
Alistair G.
More pic's ;-
https://picasaweb.google.com/LiveSteamMad/RGB_NES_mod02# (https://picasaweb.google.com/LiveSteamMad/RGB_NES_mod02#)
I tried to attach multiple pic's at once to this forum but it won't let me and to add them one by one is not practable. So Google Picassa it is then.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Just did this mod to my NES, but the jailbars are there :(
They aren't huge, and it's not noticeable in all games, but you can definitely see it in Super Mario Bros 1 and 2.
I am assuming that since I am using a toaster NES I have to live with it? :(
Can someone tell if there are any major differences on modding a Famicom, or is it basically the same procedures?
I modded mine for compositea good while ago, but if there won't be too many complications that arise from Famicom/NES differences, I'd love to try & replace the PPU on mine.
Thanks.
OK I first tried to remove the solder that was left in the PPU holes in the PCB by using my Antex 50W TCS iron @ medium temp with the 1mm single eliptical face (angled face) bit and thought against using braid or a solder sucker, and then instead was trying to do it using a pin made from a cut off section from a large Safety Pin, held in a pair of pliers, with the 3mm or 6mm single eliptical (angled / chamfered) face bit, slightly tinned, held against the pin to heat it, melting the solder in the holes, but the holes kept re-sealing with solder LOL so I removed all I could and then made sure each blind hole was a little depressed in the middle, and then drilled each hole out with a Swivel Head Pin Vice and a 0.7mm drill bit. Worked great, now my precision IC socket fits the PCB perfectly it seems. Not soldered it in yet...
Quote1. Desoldered the original PPU from the NES
2. Soldered a 40-pin IC socket where the PPU used to be
You need a praecision instead a standard IC socket for a good connection.
3. Soldered wires to pins 14,15,16,and 21 (red, green, blue, and sync, respectively)
The RGB Pins should not connect from the socket to the pcb, because it is ground.
You have also ONLY lift the 3 RGB pins, not Pin 21.
Take composite sync from the yellow Video RC Socket from the HF-Modulator.
You need an amplifier for the RGB signal.
I saw in a reply to the original poster that Mooseman mentioned "Take composite sync from the yellow Video RC Socket from the HF-Modulator", does that mean that I open the RF box and solder a yellow wire to this point in my attached picture? (picture to follow in a moment)
I just ordered 7/0.2 mm red, green, blue and yellow equipment wire (PVC insulation, eyuk I hate it, silicone is way easier to solder but seems only to be available in larger sizes of wire only?).
Cheers,
Alistair G.
> "Take composite sync from the yellow Video RC Socket from the HF-Modulator", does that mean that I open the RF box and solder a yellow wire to this point that I labelled with a red arrow, in my attached picture below?
Also, in which case, how does it manage to produce Composite Sync from there when I have cut out the Composite PPU ????
EDIT: Oh I see, because pin 21 of the RGB PPU generates Composite Sync which then gets amplified by the circuit inside the RF box that would normally amplify Composite Video from the Composite PPU. RGB Displays need this Composite Sync in addition to the raw RGB apparently, so the RGB PPU generates it always, to suit the RGB displays.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Quote from: Drakon on September 22, 2010, 12:43:32 PM
Quote from: xenomus on September 21, 2010, 12:32:16 PM
So, I'm working on my RGB kit for the Famicom AV and I'm getting close! But all I seem to get is pictures like these:
http://imgur.com/hqxwt.jpg (http://imgur.com/hqxwt.jpg)
http://imgur.com/hkDzg.jpg (http://imgur.com/hkDzg.jpg)
http://imgur.com/UK3CT.jpg (http://imgur.com/UK3CT.jpg)
It appears to be pulling sprite information from the wrong addresses, or something like that. It should be noted that I can't get the one actual Famicom game I have to load up. The only games that I can get to load are NES games thru a NES-to-Famicom converter. Sound comes through just fine. It's just the pictures are garbled. At least the colors are crisp and bold thanks to the RGB! But, yeah, this is something of an issue.
And I'm pretty sure it's not the fault of the converter, since I got NES games to play on the system with it just fine before I started the modding. The PPU I'm using is RP2C03B, which I think is compatible but I'm not 100% sure since my Japanese is rusty. (For reference: http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/ProductsList.html (http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/ProductsList.html) ; third item down.)
Any advice?
yikes, only time I had stuff like that happen was when some pins weren't connected, check your connections. I really gotta find a way to make a low pass filter to get rid of these stupid lines...
Did you ever find a solution?
I've been trying to get this mod to work on my Famicom (non-av) with the same results - garbled sprites. Games do play and sound good, just garbled all up.
After also ripping apart my NES, I got the PlayChoice PPU installed there, and the picture looks great! No sprite issues.
I do want an RGB famicom since I prefer the looks of the japanese console and it'd be easier to use the famicom disk system on it.
Please help!
Seems like some address/data lines are short-circuited or unconnected. I'd also check the cartridge connector pins. My famicom has similar issues if I push the cartridge full way down, but if I pull it a bit up from the bottom then it's fixed. I have RP2C03B inside the famicom so it shouldn't be a compatibility issue.
Quote from: marqs on May 30, 2011, 05:42:54 AM
Seems like some address/data lines are short-circuited or unconnected. I'd also check the cartridge connector pins. My famicom has similar issues if I push the cartridge full way down, but if I pull it a bit up from the bottom then it's fixed. I have RP2C03B inside the famicom so it shouldn't be a compatibility issue.
Thanks for the info, I'll give it a shot. Weird thing is that with the stock fami PPU it works fine - no glitches. I was thinking that maybe I screwed up a trace or crossed something somewhere but since the standard PPU works I'm not sure what could be wrong.
Followed this mod using the THS7314 but mostly Moosmann techniques (thanks much for putting all this info out there) and it looks amazing. While I was at it I got to wondering if it was possible to take the RGBS lines off the RP2C03B and, using an AD725, getting Chroma/Luma/Composite. I built the circuit following Ben Heck's diagram here...
http://www.engadget.com/2006/11/28/how-to-consolize-an-arcade-game/ (http://www.engadget.com/2006/11/28/how-to-consolize-an-arcade-game/)
Anyone else tried something similar to this?
The video signal I get out of the AD725 is basically a green screen with a faint image of what should be present but it's scrambled.
Instead of sending the CSync from the RP2C03B into the AD725 and sending it straight out the back to the television it produces this. Sort of Gameboy-ish but still not where I want to be ???
Success!!! AD725 apparently is fussy about the sync signals it receives so if you try this go with a sync cleaner. S-video shot of Castlevania which turns out quite nice from this encoder in my opinion. The Composite signal however is dot crawl paradise so be warned! I'm going to try the luma trap once the inductors show up but don't have high hopes for that end of this project.
One additional issue I notice while running S-Video...a faint herringbone type pattern that runs 2 o'clock-8 o'clock. I'd assume this is sync related as well but what residual issue could there possibly be after sending this through a JROK?
Oh Boy what a job that was. PPU socket now soldered in (I used my 50W Antex TCS iron on medium temperature and used the 1mm single eliptical face (angled face) bit, using Deans Racing Solder with ProFlux), RGB PPU inserted, and I can hear music coming from my speaker so looks like my early USA NES isn't dead :D And the first of my RGB PPU's worked!! :) Happy Days!!
The PPU I am using is RP2C03B with purple / brown body and Gold legs, marked 9F3 27, removed from my 1986 PlayChoice 10 PCB, PCH1-04-CPU, serial no. C-013507. EDIT: I have two RP2C03B's marked with this same 9F3 27 batch number, the other one had the mashed legs. The one I used here has the straight legs.
Now just got to tidy things up and figure out what the heck I'm going to connect the RGB to.
I found that although I filed down the 3 legs on my precision style IC socket for pins 14, 15, 16 and put 1 piece of PVC electric tape (should have used cloth tape like Markus but didn't realise that until later on doah!) on the PCB covering those 3 holes, I had soldered the 3 RGB wires to the bottom of where the pins used to be (before I filed them off), and the wires and solder had then to be filed down with a very fine file (you get them cheap from hobby shops) yet again as much as I could get away with, and even then only about 1mm of the full length pins or less came through on the other side protruding from the PCB above it's surface on the no-components side of the PCB.
Also had to smear the bits of solder with the iron around every hole on the component side of the PCB to flatten them down as best I could and then redrill (from the non-component side) some holes where it filled them back in by doing this. Still there was well enough of each pin sticking though on the non-component side to solder to, but I did find myself checking each pin on this side with a cheapo 8x magnifying loupe and refreshing the solder joints several times over for quite a few pins before I was happy with every joint, and I checked for bridged joints also. Fortunately the PPU that I used had already had the heatsink removed so that was one less stage that I had to do. Seems to work.
Can't tell at the moment whether I am going to get a picture out of this yet LOL.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Got the last of the video issues resolved and as it turns out the herringbone/crosshatch was being caused by the xtal. Replaced that and it's a herringbone free image so here's a little more eye candy to keep those working on this motivated (I hope). The infamous CV2 title screen, not so bad really, but it's for sure got the most noticeable jailbars of any game I have on hand to test.
Most games do seem to run glitchfree but the two problem titles I own are Megaman 2 and Kirby's Adventure though the issues are minor. There is currently a 120pf cap soldered in between pin 24 and gnd. Anybody tried further experimentation with values here to see if it can be totally resolved?
Quote from: Salamander on July 26, 2011, 01:00:40 AM
the herringbone/crosshatch was being caused by the xtal. Replaced that and it's a herringbone free image
You replaced the NES's 21.47727MHz Crystal with another crystal of the exact same frequency ? Which exact brand and item code of crystal did you use? Does it matter which way round you solder it in?
BTW I have a SNES with this herringbone pattern problem on the screen but only on the S-Video connection, composite seems to be almost entirely free of it, when viewed on my Infocus IN76 projector. The herringbone pattern is only visible on my In76 projector on S-Video from the SNES and never on my Sony 29" Trinitron TV when using S-Video from the same console. I have suspected the cheap (probably unshielded) S-Video custom SNES adapter cable in the past but could it be the SNES's crystal? In which case could I solder into the SNES the exact same replacement crystal that you soldered into your NES to remove the herringbone / crosshatch pattern on your NES?
Cheers,
Alistair G.
@Live_Steam_Mad: It's actually a separate but related issue with the s-video encoder. It requires a 4FSC xtal to generate the chroma/luma/composite and while experimenting to try and resolve the issue I discovered it was the problem. As for the herringbone issue on the SNES, are you getting an audible hum in the video? I ran into a similar issue using the 'cheap' multi-out -> SCART off eBay and wound up just building my own using high quality shielded cable with a drain wire. The unofficial cables on eBay are cheaply made 28 or 30 gauge using a common ground for everything with no shielding.
Quote from: Moosmann on September 23, 2005, 10:36:54 PM
RGB Amplifier:
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/moosmann/electronic/NEW-RPG-Amplifier.jpg)
Sync and Audio:
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/moosmann/electronic/NES032.jpg)
Final (black wire is 5V, brown wire is ground):
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/moosmann/electronic/NES046.jpg)
Bye Markus
Can I ask please Markus, in your picture labelled "Sync and Audio" above (which seems to be a picture of the RF modulator of the NES), it looks like your red wire has shielding around it and runs inside the left side of the double wire (figure 8 cross section) black cable, and connects to the audio ((red) left hand RCA socket in the picture i.e. amplified (by the RF box circuitry) mono sound (left and right audio channels mixed into one audio channel)) and the blue wire also looks like it has it's own individual shield and runs inside the right hand side of the double wire black cable, and connects to the ((yellow) right hand RCA socket in the picture, i.e. amplified composite sync from the RP2C03B PPU (as opposed to amplified composite PAL or NTSC video from RP2C02/RP2C07)) and that you have used one of the shields (the one from surrounding the red cable) to connect to the metal plate (is that ground?) that the 2 RCA audio and video sockets are attached to. And you seem to have put black PVC electrical insulation tape around this shield wire that connects to ground? Is that right?
Where does the other end of the red wire go to? I am guessing to your NES's stereo modification to mix with the 2 mono channels to get nice stereo mix effect like I and many others have done?
Where does the other end of the blue wire go to? I am assuming that it provides Composite sync on that 8 pin DIN that you installed on the back of the NES for any RGB to Component converter or RGB SCART connector or similar?
Where does the other end of the Ground cable on the left of the red wire go to? Does it connect to your 8 pin DIN connector to provide video ground for an RGB SCART cable for example?
In your photo labelled "Final", is that black wire I can see coming off your amplifier PCB going to the NES PCB to the last pin on the far right of the cartridge connector to get 5V off the cartridge connector to power the amplifier with? So your RGB amplifier is getting power from the NES? EDIT: Yes this must be true since I later connected this end pin of the NES edge (cart) connector to my Moosmann amplifier and the amp works so must be 5V.
In which case why is there another black wire going from near that wire on the amplifier PCB to the 8 pin DIN connector? What is that for? (I am assuming it's +5V to go through a 75 Ohm resistor and then into SCART pin 16 ("RGB selection voltage", between 1 and 3 V is to switch the TV to RGB input mode automatically).
Also can you post the amplifier picture / schematic that you used that had the broken link above?
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Visit this website: http://playoffline.wordpress.com/mod/nesrgb/ (http://playoffline.wordpress.com/mod/nesrgb/)
I prefer using a THS7314 as an amp for the RGB over using a mishmash of transistors and resistors.
It's very simple to build as it's a single 8 pin IC (small too!).
Go to this website (translate): http://baku.homeunix.net/RGB/RGB_FC/RGB_FC.html (http://baku.homeunix.net/RGB/RGB_FC/RGB_FC.html) and scroll down to RGB Buffer Amplifier for a diagram and parts list.
I already use THS7314 OPV since the last 3 Mods, but without the 100nF Capacitor between 5V and GND (causes very small errors in the amplified signals).
Greetings Markus
Quote from: Moosmann on July 29, 2011, 08:31:24 PM
I already use THS7314 OPV since the last 3 Mods, but without the 100nF Capacitor between 5V and GND (causes very small errors in the amplified signals).
Greetings Markus
Do you use a cap between 5V and GND for your THS7314 circuit? If so, what value? Do you use the existing circuitry in the NES for CSYNC, and tap from the composite video output connector?
I don`t use a capacitor between 5V and GND Pins on the THS OPV. I take composite Sync from the Multi-Out (AV-Famicom) or like my old US NES Mods (it is the same).
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/moosmann/electronic/c1fcmod1.jpg)
BTW: Modifications with a C1 PPU, you have chance C5 (220uF) to a smaller capacitor in order to place the C1 PPU with heatsinks
Greetings Markus
Responding to something someone mentioned earlier about the PlayChoice PCB's, I tested each of my 5 PlayChoice 10's (serial numbers C010996, C013507, C013450, C011325, C008239) (I think they are all single monitor boards) and I found that PPU pin 17 is always connected to PPU pin 20 with no resistance, and that PPU pin 20 is always connected to ground with no resistance, this all being tested by not having any PPU's in any of the PlayChoice 10 PCB sockets.
I tested the 4 off RP2C03B PPU's that I have left (not for sale) and pin 17 is always connected to pin 20 inside the chip with between 38 to 43 Ohms resistance so there is a connection internally inside the chip between the two pins but there are components between the two pins.
Tested with DT830B cheapo multimeter (+/- 0.8 per cent rated accuracy on Ohms allegedly, not bad for 3 quid. But when I tested it, it is always 0.6 Ohms higher than it should be (zero resistance displays as 0.6 Ohms, and a 2.2 Ohm resistor with 1 per cent tolerance displayed as 2.8 Ohms, but at least the voltage readout on a 12V 7Ah battery agrees with my hobby charger's LCD readout within 0.01V, but the only adjustment pot internally inside the DT830B is for voltage, there is no adjustment for resistance).
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Quote from: Moosmann on July 30, 2011, 04:30:06 AMModifications with a C1 PPU
C1 NES TV also used an RGB PPU? If so, that's another commercial release so I really don't understand the folks who see the minor palette issues as such a big deal.
About the grounds...lifting 17 has never made a difference for me on this mod. The interference is really not that bad unless it's displaying certain colors (light blues or the blue-green color of CV2 title). For the most part you will either never notice it or the improved overall clarity more than makes up for it.
I just wired up my RGB NES's green PPU pin to pin 11 of my SCART input on an opened up SNES cable as a quick test. I tested and get continuity between the RP2C03B's "green leg" i.e. 6th pin from the right on the chip, i.e. PPU pin 16, and the SCART pin 11. And I get SMB1 music through my TV but no picture at all (TV doesn't sync). It's a Sony portable 14" TV (UK model). How do I test if it's working (what is the minimum needed) ? Do I need a ground hooked up? If so, from where to where?
Also I tested and there is continuity between the metal ground going all the way around the NES PCB and pin 17 and pin 20 of the PPU. However PPU pins 14,15,16 are definitely not connected to ground, so looks like I lifted those pins properly.
I just need to see that one of the 3 colors works (it's OK for it to be very dark for now as long as I can see that it's working).
Do I need to put +1 to +3 V e.g. from an AA cell on SCART pin 16 and -ve to pin 18? As this selects RGB instead of Composite...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCART (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCART)
Do I need anything on pin 21?
Just had a thought, this TV is UK so might not be capable of sync'ing to 525/60 and 3.58MHz NTSC color subcarrier or RGB - will go and test the TV with something else to verify.
EDIT: Nope, TV in front room (29" Sony CRT) accepts 525 lines @ 60 fields/sec and 3.58MHz NTSC and RGB and still I get only sound and no picture.
I notice that my Infocus IN76 projector uses "Sync on Green" on Component, where there are 3 RCA jacks colored red, green and blue and if you only insert the green you get a picture but if you put in the others on their own you don't get a picture. Not that I am willing to risk connection of anything to my projector until I get a picture on either of my 2 TV's first... but is my SCART problem anything to do with Composite Sync needed to be connected to the SCART green pin (11) as well as the green RGB wire from the PPU?
EDIT : I just read that "RGB SCART gets the Sync signal from Composite video" (here ;- http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/console/nintendo/rgbntsc.htm#link83 (http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/console/nintendo/rgbntsc.htm#link83) ) , I suppose that's why there's no picture, it's because there is no Composite Sync wired up to Composite Video IN on my SCART yet...
Help!
Alistair G.
Yeay...just connected test wire from Composite Sync coming out of the RF modulator section (which is connected to the yellow RCA jack's hole) to pin 20 on SCART (Composite Video In) and instead of a jet black screen I'm getting a very dark grey screen with interference on most of the upper section of the screen and what looks like a very faint picture of the wall on Super Mario Bros 1 along the bottom of the screen. No color yet.
Is this all the picture that you get from a non-amplified RGB output ??? ? There's next to no picture at all...but very faint indeed. Brightening the picture doesn't help.
I think I'll connect up the RGB Green ground (pin 9) of SCART to NES PCB ground next to see if I get a proper dark green picture.
EDIT: Nope, connecting SCART pin 9 to ground on NES PCB just wipes out my picture back to very dark grey with NOTHING visible.
HELP
Alistair G.
Output even non-amplified should be present just too dark. SCART takes sync from composite video on pin 20 so send csync from the RF box there instead and it should work.
A site to visit for some additional help with console SCART: http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/gamescart/gamescart.htm (http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/gamescart/gamescart.htm)
Quote from: Salamander on August 04, 2011, 12:21:07 AM
send csync from the RF box there instead and it should work.
I already did that (the solder point that I showed in my picture above on the RF box's PCB, same as yellow RCA hole, going to SCART pin 20) and that's the thing that got me a picture at all, without it I had no picture whatsoever. Now I have a picture but it's VERY faint. This being on the 14" Sony portable with FD (flat) Trinitron screen.
So far I have PPU green hooked up to SCART pin 11, and SCART Green Ground ready to be hooked up to NES PCB (but when I do my picture vanishes completely but the line stucture is still there so Sync is working. Also have Composite Sync from RF box (yellow RCA inner) connected to SCART pin 20. The connections are direct, no resistors or capacitors.
Next I'm going to try making the amplifier circuit for the green color channel as I just got the components. I suspect that the PPU chip's output is weak (current-wise) and that the voltage may be being dragged down too low (SCART has 75 Ohms resistance in the TV circuit PCB ?) and the amplifier would I imagine provide a power transistor that can deliver more current and a voltage that doesn't drop under load so hugely brighter picture? I'll soon find out.
I was just depressed and irritated to see how the unamplified picture wasn't just dark it was almost not there at all!
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Quote from: Salamander on August 04, 2011, 12:21:07 AM
A site to visit for some additional help with console SCART: http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/gamescart/gamescart.htm (http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/gamescart/gamescart.htm)
Ahh now I know why Markus Brandel (alias Moosmann here) is using an 8 pin DIN connector to go from RGB NES to TV, it would appear he's using a Megadrive / Genesis to SCART cable as shown further down that web page you mentioned http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/gamescart/gamescart.htm#megamstr (http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/gamescart/gamescart.htm#megamstr). Markus's webpage is in German so I am using http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fplayoffline.wordpress.com%2Fmod%2Fnesrgb%2F (http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fplayoffline.wordpress.com%2Fmod%2Fnesrgb%2F) to translate, but he doesn't mention that you use a Genesis / Megadrive cable to connect RGB NES to TV. He must have forgotten to include that information??
One thing is odd though, the pinout that Markus gives matches the Megadrive / Genesis to SCART cable EXCEPT where Markus has pin 5 of the DIN as audio and the above page says that DIN pin 5 should be Green. Also, Markus has pin 7 of DIN as green, whereas the above web page says that pin 7 should have no connection!
Why is this? Who is incorrect?
Cheers,
Alistair G.
It's because his DIN pinout is custom and could be wired any way you want. What you see at that link is what is output at those specific pins without modification from the original console.
Is there a web page with a diagram that shows you how to connect an RGB NES to SCART ?
ARG
You can wire up the DIN side any way you like so long as the SCART end is correct (it can only be done one way). Copying the NTSC SNES pinout should work fine though the caps are basically optional.
Quote from: davidleeroth on December 12, 2007, 11:28:26 PM
Ok, changed the CPU and the crystal to NTSC's so now this bad boy is working! The composite picture on the NES had a huge issue with dot crawl and it's all gone now. The improvement is clear in pics but you can really appreciate when there's movement i.e. the first scene of Life Force, which in composite looked ridiculous. I'm very impressed.
The RP2C03 palette does make some games look a bit different, like some Konami games look like they're on MSX but that's to be expected. Games with cartoony colors and graphics like Mega Man seem to come out the best. All in all, the trade-off is well worth it.
Moosmann, I get vertical stripes in some games as well, but they only appear with my RGB monitor. My Sony TV doesn't have even a trace. The stripes are grey on black areas like intro screen in Probotector II.
In your PAL NES that you RGB modded and put NTSC CPU in, which revision PAL NES was this? Do you have a photo of the PCB ? And a serial number? Would be interesting to know since I also have a PAL NES but if it gives the jail bars when RGB modded then I'll stick with my NTSC Revision 4 NES with serial number N0639771 on the underside of the NES, and of year 1986 on the PCB.
Cheers,
ARG
Here is the appearance of my screen (Sony 14" CRT) with just PPU Green and Composite Sync and no grounds wired up ;-
ARG
OK I built the Moosmann amplifier, but only 1 amp out of 3 yet, from Markus's web page of http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://playoffline.wordpress.com/mod/nesrgb/&ei=FJoxToK0CY608QPpt5mhDg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB4Q7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://playoffline.wordpress.com/mod/nesrgb/%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3D0BV%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26prmd%3Divns (http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://playoffline.wordpress.com/mod/nesrgb/&ei=FJoxToK0CY608QPpt5mhDg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB4Q7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://playoffline.wordpress.com/mod/nesrgb/%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3D0BV%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26prmd%3Divns), I used a CTBC337-25 transistor (seller told me was Philips brand), and a CTBC557B that the other seller told me was Fairchild Semiconductor brand. Transistor pinouts were both the same as on Markus's web page (it seems). I used 1 per cent tolerance resistors, metal film type, and an electrolytic capacitor (i.e. polarised) in the amp, as prescribed by Markus on that page.
I wired up the PPU Green to the amp. IN, and Green OUT of amp. directly to pin 11 of SCART, no other cap's or anything. I left the Green Ground (pin 9 of SCART) dangling on a flying lead.
Now when I feed the NES into the Sony KV-14LT1U 14" FD Trinitron CRT 4:3 TV I get a picture (as before) since I have Composite Sync (yellow RCA inner pin from RF box on NES) wired direct to pin 20 of SCART, no other components in the path, and I have Green connected, but the picture is a hell of a lot brighter than the almost non existant picture that I was getting before.. I get music from the NES. I can see SMB 1 playing nicely on the screen BUT it's a little faint for my liking (maybe because the other 2 color components will make it brighter later on) and it's got wavy lines (but less than before) on the screen, and it's in Black and White, NOT green, which I thought was odd. Also if I connect pin 9 of SCART (Green Ground) to the NES PCB the picture is very dark (and still black and white).
The wavy lines dissappear when I ground pin 9 (green ground) to the NES PCB.
Not sure if this TV can even handle RGB LOL. There is no button on the remote for switching the TV to RGB either. I suppose that means I will need 1 to 3 V on pin 16 of SCART, and I assume that would also mean I have to ground pin 18 of SCART to the NES since pin 18 is the ground for pin 16?
However when I fed the same NES into the Sony 29" CRT TV (KV-29K5U) which can take RGB and 525 lines / 60 fields/sec, 3.58MHz NTSC, it WON'T sync (except now and again very briefly and then I can see that it looks OK brightness) and everything is distorted, unless I connect pin 9 of SCART (Green Ground) to the NES PCB and then it sync's but the picture then goes INCREDIBLY dark. Also both "pictures" are in black and white, same as my 14" TV when I know that this larger TV can do RGB or NTSC color at 3.58 or 4.43MHz.
Next I will try making 2 more amp's on my perf. board and try running a ground for Composite Sync onto the NES PCB, and will also try grounding the 3 colors of R, G and B.
Below is what my TV picture now looks like on my 14" Sony with my amplified Green. No grounds wired. Only 5V and ground from NES PCB to the amp. of course. The Moosmann amp. obviously works and the signal is way more than before. Ignore the colored red and blue curved fringes lines, they are aliasing from camera chip / CRT screen.
I just want to know why my picture is black and white on both TV's LOL.
EDIT: I just found out that if I disconnect the mono audio from the RCA input on the front of the TV the picture doesn't sync on the 14" TV unless I ground either Green or Composite sync and then I get a picture. I remember that on my brother's very similar 14" Sony upstairs (older model, not flat Triniton) the RCA video / audio sockets cannot be used at the same time as the SCART as they seem to be connected together internally inside the TV! And of course the audio ground from the mono audio is connected to the NES RF unit so that's where the return path for ground is coming from. Hence why when I connect the mono audio from the NES into the front of the TV it suddenly gets sync, as it's using the audio ground to ground the Composite Sync!
If I have both Composite Sync's Ground and Green's Ground connected together to the NES PCB I get a picture on the 14" TV, but the picture is quite dark compared to not grounding those. If I do the same on the 29" TV I get no picture at all. But if I connect just Green Ground to NES PCB and not CSync ground I get a picture on the 29" but it's incredibly dark (almost not there at all). This is annoying, what the hell do I do about this?
HELP!
Cheers,
Alistair G.
1 more pic of what I'm getting out of SMB 1 at the moment on the 14" TV with just PPU Green connected (and NO grounds connected in this picture except of course for audio ground)... a little depressing :-[. On the upside, at least the Composite artefacts seem to be gone, vertical edges are now straight finally! ;-
Cheers,
ARG
You have to connect +5V to Scart Pin 8 and via 75 Ohm Resistor to Pin 16. If its doesnt`t work, take the other Scartsocket from your TV.
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/moosmann/electronic/md1rgb.png (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/moosmann/electronic/md1rgb.png)
The 8 Din Pinout from my NES Mod is the same Pinout like you modified a NEC PC Engine DUO/R/RX. My RGB Modified PC-Engines are backward compatible with the normal AV Cable.
The 8 Din Connectors are available in "O" and "U" Layout. The Sega Megadrive use the "U" Layout for the Pins. Unfortunately, an nice and stable metall housing plug is not available for "U" Plugs, so that i prefer the " O" Plugs.
Because the NES have only audio mono, i solder a bridge between 2 pins, so that i can use the same "Stereo" PC-Engine RGB Cable for the NES.
Greeetings Markus
Markus, you are right once again!
I just connected my chipped PlayStation 1 to the 14" TV and used the RGB SCART cable that my Uncle gave me and put in Tomb Raider 1 (NTSC USA) and as soon as I switched on the PSX the TV instantly switched over to RGB mode and I saw a beautiful color picture (I have never seen it do this before on this TV) and showing the 3 green dots on the OSD (On Screen Display) which indicates RGB mode in use on the TV, just like I see when I use RGB mode on the large Sony TV in the front room. So this PSX is giving pin 16 at least 1V to activate RGB mode and this 14" TV can do RGB.
So yes I need to give pin 16 at least 1V on my NES's SCART cable in order to switch this 14" TV to RGB mode when used with the NES, as I never saw the 3 green dots on the OSD at any time so far with the NES on this TV. Will do, and report back.
Thanks!
Alistair G.
Hi Markus, you mentioned on another topic in this forum "I received the PPU from VS. Top Gun yesterday. The Chip is similar labled like the PPU from Famicom Titler and it hold the NES Homesystem colorpalette" :o
Do you mean that this PPU from VS. Top Gun is RGB output but has the Composite PPU's color palette? If so, I am very interested :)
The chip in question is the RC2C05-04
Baku has put some logic gates together to enable use of the RC2C05-04 in the AV Famicom ;-
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbaku.homeunix.net%2FWiKi%2Frnx (http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbaku.homeunix.net%2FWiKi%2Frnx) (scroll down)
It LOOKS like Baku is taking +5V from pin 40, and Ground from pin 20, of RC2C05-04 PPU, to power the 2 logic chips on his PCB, and that the only other 3 things wired up are PPU pins 10, 11 and 12 (pins A2, A1, and A0, i.e. three PPU address pins). The function that has to be performed is OUTPUT = ( A 2 NOR A1 ) XOR A0 , which means that A2 gets NOR'ed with A1, and then the output of that is XOR'ed with A0, this does the "address conversion" (the "unscrambling" back to normal of the addressing of A0).
There are it seems two more functions written on his page, A 2 NOR A1 = !(!A 2 NAND !A1), !X = X NAND X, I think the guy means that you can perform A2 NOR A1 by using NAND gates as well if you want to (depends what logic chips you have to hand). Since if you want to do A2 NOR A1, you can also do it by !(!A2 NAND !A1), since ! means "inverted", and if you want to invert say A1 to make it !A1, you just do !A1 = A1 NAND A1 (that's one NAND gate on the Quad 2 input NAND gate chip used out of 4). Then you also do !A2 = A2 NAND A2, which uses 1 more NAND gate (two so far). Then you do !A2 NAND !A1 (which uses another NAND gate, which makes three NAND gates used). Then you invert the output of it (by splitting the output and using it as 2 inputs to a final NAND gate which uses the final 4th NAND gate on the chip, and performs !(!A2 NAND !A1) which is the same as A2 NOR A1. Now all we need to do is XOR the output of this with A0.
Does anyone have a schematic for this circuit? I can't find one on Baku's website as I don't speak Japanese and Google Translate didn't enable me to find it. Should be quite easy to draw up now I know the functions needed. If I ever get my hands on the RC2C05-04 and do the circuit and it works then I will post the schematic here later on.
EDIT: OK so I drew out the schematic and here is a link https://picasaweb.google.com/LiveSteamMad/RC2C0504PPUAdapterCircuitSchematicForNESRGBMod#5727339177069453170 (https://picasaweb.google.com/LiveSteamMad/RC2C0504PPUAdapterCircuitSchematicForNESRGBMod#5727339177069453170). I think when Baku writes A0' that it means the function that you perform on A0. So you take the A0 signal from the PPU socket on the PCB of the NES (PPU socket pin 12) and also pin 11 (A1) from the PPU socket on the NES and pin 10 (A2) from the PPU socket on the NES and wire them through my circuit as shown and then feed the output into the RC2C05-04 PPU pin 12 (A0), and also feed A1 to PPU pin 11 unaltered and feed A2 to PPU pin 10 unaltered. Later EDIT: this is now confirmed by looking at Baku's red and green lines schematic in his post which follows below). Of course pin 12 (A0) of the PPU will have to be lifted from the PPU socket in the same way as the RGB pins (must not contact NES PCB).
Did anyone try to email Baku about this (Drakon?) and if so what was the reply?
I also found this site that seems to be Baku and RC2C05-04 related ;-
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://bakutendo.blog87.fc2.com/blog-entry-221.html&ei=cgBDTu_ML9S5hAfV-oynCQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CH0Q7gEwCA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DRC2C05%2B%2B%2522A0%2522%2B%2522A1%2522%2B%2522A2%2522%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DrqH%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26prmd%3Divns (http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://bakutendo.blog87.fc2.com/blog-entry-221.html&ei=cgBDTu_ML9S5hAfV-oynCQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CH0Q7gEwCA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DRC2C05%2B%2B%2522A0%2522%2B%2522A1%2522%2B%2522A2%2522%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DrqH%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26prmd%3Divns)
Or has anyone else managed to implement the RC2C05-04 in any NES / Famicom?
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Can't help with the logic gates but if your concern is palette issues you could just install potentiometers that can be adjusted externally (the actual Playchoice 10 mobo has these on the color lines anyways). It's not a fix for the problem with emphasis bits (very few problem titles) or the gray entries but you can get a pretty close match to normal colors this way.
Wow that's a really great idea you've had there for the sockets on the back of your NES, adjustable R,G and B, audio "stereo separation" mix, MultiAV from the SNES, I like it very much.
Cheers,
ARG
Hi Live_Steam_Mad, I'm the author of that Website.
Excuse me. I'm not good at English.
The following is a circuit made later.
(http://baku.homeunix.net/RGB/loft/RC2C05_on_FC_1.jpg)
schematic
(http://baku.homeunix.net/RGB/loft/RC2C05_on_FC_sch_t.png)
layout
(http://baku.homeunix.net/RGB/loft/RC2C05_on_FC_brd.png)
parts side
(http://baku.homeunix.net/RGB/loft/RC2C05_on_FC_2.jpg)
solder side
(http://baku.homeunix.net/RGB/loft/RC2C05_on_FC_3.jpg)
Hey Baku thanks for posting!!! :D
Have you tried using the Gumshoe PPU (RC2C05-03) with this circuit?
Quote from: baku on August 11, 2011, 11:01:06 PM
Hi Live_Steam_Mad, I'm the author of that Website.
Excuse me. I'm not good at English.
Hello Baku, it's great to see you here, we are VERY glad to have such an expert on this forum topic 8)
Your English is pretty good it seems.
Your RC2C05-04 adapter circuit would mean, I assume, that we could use the PPU from ;-
RC2C05-01 Ninja Jajamaru Kun (Japan)
RC2C05-02 Mighty Bomb Jack (Japan)
RC2C05-03 Gumshoe (MDS-GM)
RC2C05-04 -- daughter board -- Top Gun
I would like to ask you please, how did you manage to use only 1 IC ??? of (what looks to be) the HD74LS86P (Renesas brand, Low power Schottky, 74 series, logic gate chip consisting of 4 of the 2 input XOR (Exclusive OR) gates, datasheet http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/247392/RENESAS/HD74LS86P.html (http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/247392/RENESAS/HD74LS86P.html) ) in your pictures above, because in your pictures in your web page that I linked to above, you used 2 IC's, just as you did in your different schematic with the black background that you showed above ?
http://baku.homeunix.net/RGB/loft/DSCF3197rt.jpg (http://baku.homeunix.net/RGB/loft/DSCF3197rt.jpg)
Have you got a schematic showing just the use of the 1 x HD74LS86P ?
EDIT: OK I see from your Japanese webpage that you mentioned the 74LS36 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_7400_series_integrated_circuits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_7400_series_integrated_circuits) (Quad, 2 input NOR gate, just with different pinout than 74LS02) as being a better part to use, why is this? Maybe you are using this in your single chip solution above, as I can't see whether it's 74LS36 or 74LS86 written on the chip... However I cannot find the 74LS36 chip for sale anywhere on the web or even find it's datasheet.
In your single IC solution, it seems that you have connected A2 (PPU pin 10) to pin 3 of the single IC, A1 (PPU pin 11) to pin 2, initially I thought that A0 (PPU pin 12) was connected to pin 1, on the underside of the board, but it seems like instead it just passes on a black wire from A0 through the board to the top side. IC pins 4,5,6, 9,10,11,12,13 have no connection? Vcc on pin 14 and Ground on pin 7. Maybe a connection on pin 8 of the IC but it looks like no connection, just to anchor the chip in the board? Then on the top side of the board you seem to connect A0 (PPU pin 12) (black wire coming from underside) to pin 2 of the IC (which is where you have connected A1 !), A0 also connects to pin 3 of the IC (where A2 is!), so it seems like you are using a single 2 input gate on this single IC to do both the NOR of A2 and A1, together with the A0 XOR (A2 NOR A1), that is very clever! Absolute lowest propogation delay and smallest size and lowest cost! Can you explain how you manage to combine both functions in one gate?
Please can you tell us which single chip you used in this 1 chip solution and show us the schematic?
I see that you also mentioned on your Japanese page that the total propogation delay should be under about 60ns. If I use one NOR and one XOR gate then the total delay should be under that, looking at the datasheets. Of course this delay effectively makes Video RAM memory access a tad slower for the PPU, but as long as it's lower than a certain amount then it'll work of course. The 2KB VRAM on the NES is only 150ns speed on my NES...
I just ordered a few SN74LS02N (Texas Instrument brand, SN=Silicon (I think?), N = 14 pin Dual In Line Package (DIL / DIP), propogation delay 10nS, Quad, 2 input NOR gate, datasheet http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74ls02.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74ls02.pdf) ) and some HD74LS86P XOR chips (and some Texas Instruments SN74LS86AN as a backup, I like Ti...) from Ebay and I hope to build the circuit like you have shown in your 2-chip schematic. I will be using IC sockets for ease of soldering!!
For the 2 chip solution it will need PPU pin 12 (A0) lifting from the NES PCB on the PPU socket. Pin 11 (A1) and pin 10 (A2) on PPU socket are just left as they are and connected to pin 11 A1 and pin 10 (A2) respectively on the NES PCB. This is confirmed from Baku's red and green lines schematic above. Then the NES PCB PPU pin 12 (A0) from the solder side (not component side) is taken on a wire to a small perf. board, with the NOR chip (02) also the XOR chip on it (86), then the output result is fed directly into pin 12 (A0) of the RC2C05-04 PPU.
Can you confirm for us that you definitely got the ordinary NES / Famicom (Composite Video style) color palette from the RGB-only output of your RC2C05-04 :o ? Since some web pages / people say that RC2C05-04 gives the Composite (NES) palette but with RGB signal quality?
I ask because the "Spelunker" game looks a bit bright on your monitor in your picture here http://baku.homeunix.net/RGB/loft/DSCF3198rt.jpg (http://baku.homeunix.net/RGB/loft/DSCF3198rt.jpg) and almost like the RGB palette ??? (especially when looking at the orange walls in the cavern which are normally more brown in the composite palette?). Or maybe it is darker and more like the composite NES palette in reality when you see it with your eyes and the camera is making it look bright?
You can compare the "Spelunker" game that you are using in your picture in your RGB (with RC2C05-04) AV Famicom with the normal (composite video only) AV Famicom by starting the "NEStopia" emulator, version 1.40, because there is an option in the menu ( options /video / palette = YUV or RGB) to show what it looks like!
We are all VERY impressed with your work on the Famicom and AV Famicom modifications, you seem to be the master of this science!
Best Regards from NW England,
Alistair G.
I didn't remember to disconnect pin 17 (PPU Video Ground) and pin 21 (Composite Sync) from my NES PCB when I installed the PPU socket (for getting rid of Jail bars on some configurations / NES revisions, and for amplifying / cleaning up Sync separately from the NES to help some displays sync properly, respectively) :-[
However it occured to me soon after that I can use a "normal" PlayChoice 10 style, 40 pin socket in my soldered-in "precision" / "turned pin" style socket, and bend the pins up on pin 17 and 21, to separate them from the NES PCB. At least I hope so. Otherwise I had horrifying visions of having to cut out the socket and start all over again ::)
This is something to think about when doing the RC2C05-04 RGB mod. Pin 12 (address) and 14,15,16 (RGB) and then also pin 17 (Drakon's jail bar fix) and pin 21 (separate CSync cleaner) would all it seems need to be lifted from ground in that mod :P
Pinout for the 2C05 is here;- http://baku.homeunix.net/WiKi/rnx/index.rb?cmd=search&word=RC2C05 (http://baku.homeunix.net/WiKi/rnx/index.rb?cmd=search&word=RC2C05) (scroll down). Pinout for the NES / Famicom NTSC PPU (RP2C02) is here ;- http://nesdev.parodius.com/2C02%20technical%20reference.TXT (http://nesdev.parodius.com/2C02%20technical%20reference.TXT). Something I don't understand is what comes out of pin 22 called " /Sync ", I thought Composite Sync came out of pin 21 on the RGB PPU's, so what the hell comes out of pin 22 then?! ??? It also explains there what pin 17 is actually used for ;D It also mentions as to WHY we need an amplifier for either our Composite or RGB signals "VOUT: the 2C02's unbuffered composite video output. This signal usually travels to a two-stage common collector transistor amplifier, in order to boost the video drive to support 75 ohm loads at 1 volt peak-to-peak."
EDIT: Ahh. pin 22 " /SYNC: this signal when zero, will force the status of colorburst control,
scanline and pixel counters/flip-flops used inside the PPU to definite
states. Generally, this is the means of which two 2C02s connected together
in a master-slave config (via the EXT bus) can syncronize together; the
master PPU's /VBL line feeds the vblank information to the slave's /SYNC
input. On Famicom consoles, this pin is always tied to logical one. On the
NES however, this pin is tied in with the 2A03's reset input, and as a
result, the picture is always disabled while the reset switch is held in on
an NES."
Also wanted to mention that benzaldehyde in this topic http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=187.msg7595#msg7595 (http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=187.msg7595#msg7595) said "I encountered a bit of trouble with the (RGB) amp, though. At least with a toaster-style NES, application of Waltarzar's RGB amp led to notable vertical bars acting as a sort of filter over the image, and a notable interference pattern was present. After some testing, I found that the amp was insufficeintly powered. Use of an external power source (the one I use now, at 250mA, provides plenty of current) removed both problems."
And rt9342 says here http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?p=16119&sid=87ab44f9a7d2257dffc05eb970340123 (http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?p=16119&sid=87ab44f9a7d2257dffc05eb970340123) "I recommend trying to find an RP2C03C, as opposed to the RC2C03B that usually comes with dual-monitor Playchoice boards. The "RC" version appears to have distortion in the last column of pixels, apparently sprite-related (at least mine does). Also I had some problems with the "RC" version in the top-loader NES, which I fixed by adding a pullup resistor." However my 5 x PlayChoice 10 boards all came with only RP2C03B, so I think he means that. If you want the RP2C03C then that is the PPU from the Sharp C1 Famicom Television. The RC2C03B is from VS. Tennis or VS. Duck Hunt.
Now looking for a VS. Top Gun daughter-board / full kit / PPU (whatever's cheapest) to get my hands on the RC2C05-04, there's none on Ebay cheap and they sell quickly on the arcade board / cabinet "for sale" forums :-\
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Looking at the palette from the RC2C05-04 PPU from the VS. Top Gun game (which is I assume supposed to be the same palette as the NES so I read) in this video Vs. Top Gun Arcade Nintendo & Konami Vs. System (Dualsystem and Unisystem) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRKqIhrBS7s#) and comparing it to NEStopia 1.40 running the RGB and then YUV palette, I have to say the palette from the RC2C05-04 does look to be Composite NES style as the sky is orange / beige / peach and definitely not yellow in this video (but then there's problems with color reproduction in camcorder / LCD screen combination so I can't say absolutely for sure until I see both Top Gun on unmodded NES and then compare to VS. Top Gun.
Also, you can see the palette from the RC2C05-02 PPU from the VS. Mighty Bomb Jack (Japan) game (which is I assume supposed to be the same palette as the RC2C05-04 ?) in this video Vs. Mighty Bomb Jack and Vs. Pinball for Nintendo Dualsystem Unisystem Arcade Machine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRes0tXpRB4#) and comparing it to NEStopia 1.40 running the RGB and then YUV palette.
Has anyone (Baku) ever run the RC2C05-0x and RP2C03B (PlayChoice 10) / RC2C03B (Tennis / Duck Hunt / RC2C05-99 (Famicom Titler) side by side and compared them (with 2 copies of the SAME GAME) and confirmed that the RC2C05-0x has the NES / Famicom palette?
Or if anyone owns a VS. system with Top Gun (RC2C05-04) / Gum Shoe (-03) / Mighty Bomb Jack (-02) / Ninja Jajamaru Kun (-01)and would care to compare it directly to the NES or Famicom (i.e. having the systems running next to each other) with the same game in both machines (it's possible since there was a NES / Famicom version of each of these 4 games), that could verify what the palette is like on the RC2C05-0x.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Been ages since I posted here. I've been building these systems as commissions. I made some interesting discoveries.
1: The jailbars you get in the toaster depends on what revision your toaster is. The nes-cpu-10 and nes-cpu-11 boards I rgb modded had terrible jailbars....but the nes-cpu-06 board I rgb modded looks almost as perfect as the av famicom
2: Some rgb ppu chips have less jailbars than others.....all my chips were the same model (rp2c03b) from the same type of pcb (playchoice dual moniter). The better chips have no special markings so the only way to find out is plug it in and play. Right now in my av famicom I have a chip that shows no jailbars on my tv....with any game...also no jailbars on the powerpak
3: The chip you need to swap in the rgb nes/famicom to make the powerpak work can actually be found on the playchoice 10 arcade pcb. 74HC373n chips are right on the playchoice I desoldered one and stuck it into a rgb toaster and the powerpak worked great.
4: The only important part of the model number of the 74hc373 is the 74HC373 part. I bought a mm74hc373n chip from a local store for 1$ and it makes the powerpak work on the rgb system
5: The regular top loader nes 2 that comes with rf only with jailbars in the rf (nesn-cpu-01) has just as clean of a picture as the av famicom when you rgb mod the nes 2
Quote from: Drakon on August 16, 2011, 12:30:23 PM
Been ages since I posted here. I've been building these systems as commissions. I made some interesting discoveries.
5: The regular top loader nes 2 that comes with rf only with jailbars in the rf (nesn-cpu-01) has just as clean of a picture as the av famicom when you rgb mod the nes 2
I mentioned this a while back...
Quote from: Hamburglar on October 24, 2010, 01:22:18 PM
The funny thing is the nicest picture I got from a RGB NES was from a NES top loader, even my AV Famicom has slight vertical bars.
One thing I never got around to trying was getting rid of that RF converter/regulator box and redoing the voltage regulator section.
Also the model 2 Jailbar problem on RGB varies, since there are at least 2 revisions.
Quote from: Live_Steam_Mad on August 09, 2011, 01:39:39 PM
Hi Markus, you mentioned on another topic in this forum "I received the PPU from VS. Top Gun yesterday. The Chip is similar labled like the PPU from Famicom Titler and it hold the NES Homesystem colorpalette" :o
Do you mean that this PPU from VS. Top Gun is RGB output but has the Composite PPU's color palette? If so, I am very interested :)
I was under the impression that the Titler PPU had the same palette problems as the Playchoice PPU? Did he just mean that the Top Gun PPU holds the same palette as the Playchoice 10 ?
This looks pretty interesting, hope to hear from someone that has done the mod and compared colors on the same games.
OK so I finally managed to get the 3 Moosmann amps completed, but only connected Green and Red for now (I wanted to see the effect). All 3 amp's are wired to a common ground and to a common 5V wire, 5V for amp is coming from the NES's far right pin on Cartridge slot very close to RF box, and also ground from very close to it, just like in Markus's picture on page 1 of this topic (my PCB was slightly different since it was an earlier revision). No other grounds wired yet except the audio ground return via RF box, due to Mono audio being plugged into the Sony 14" TV front input.
5V coming from 3rd amplifier into SCART pin 16 via 75 Ohm resistor. I used all Metal Film resistors of 0.6W and 1 per cent tolerance and Markus's exact same transistors for my amps, and an electrolytic cap in the amp. No other components in the path onto my SCART pins (no cap's or resistors on the Red, Green, Sync pins). Composite Sync wired to SCART pin 20 and amp'ed Green to SCART pin 11 and amp'ed Red to SCART pin 15. RGB became automatically activated on the TV because of some volts on pin 16 of SCART (thanks Markus ;D) and FINALLY the picture was hell of lot brighter and in color at last! But I saw interference patterns (wavy curvy lines) :-[ and the black was way too grey.
I have solved this though (more to come).
Here is a picture of what I'm getting now on my 14" TV ;-
Cheers,
Alistair G.
1 more picture of what I'm getting ;-
More later on how I solved my wavy lines problem.
On the upside, I've never seen even the slightest hint of any jail bars from this revision 4 NTSC USA NES :)
Cheers,
ARG
OK I then connected the final (Blue) color channel up to the 3rd Moosmann amp and I get this picture below. Starting to look good! And finally I have the RGB palette LOL. Wow it looks really weird and vibrant compared to the NES palette. However there are still Sine waves on the screen (interference) due to not running any "proper" ground. Actually I think it's because the only ground return I get is via the RF box because of the mono audio plugged into the front of my Sony 14" Flat Trinitron CRT TV, and the RF box's ground seems to be noisy. Also blacks are grey. I solved this later on. If I plug the mono audio out of the TV, the picture vanishes (no ground).
Ignore crud on the glass, fringe patterns (aliasing between camera and screen) and horizontal shadow line (interaction between camera and scan of TV)...
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Here's what the wavy interference looks like from using the ground on the amplified mono audio of the RF box ;-
Cheers,
ARG
I temporarily touched the flying lead from SCART Green Ground onto NES PCB in the very corner of the PCB (3 large corner stripes of metal where the controller connectors are, on the solder side of PCB) picture went MUCH better, wavy curved interference went and blacks were black. Also happened when I touched Composite Sync Ground flying lead from SCART onto NES PCB in same place.
So I connected Green Ground from SCART and Composite Sync Ground from SCART together and then connected them onto the Moosmann amp pcb into the common ground and the picture went terrible ::) (wavy curved lines interference to the max, black went verrry grey). Seems as if the interference source was the Moosmann amp PCB! :o
Hre's what it looked like ;-
Cheers,
ARG
The solution I found was to solder Composite Sync Ground from SCART (only) to NES PCB in that corner place I mentioned and finally the picture has no interference 8), weird how I don't need any grounds on the 3 colors ??? (why is this?). Now when I plug out audio from front of TV the picture remains (ground from Composite Sync to NES PCB sorts that out).
However when I did plug the mono audio in to front of TV, the picture became a little too bright and the wavy interference comes back slighty.
So I then finally to solve this also connected a ground from my stereo audio mix mod. to NES PCB (same place in corner) and plugged stereo cable from the mod. into phono stereo to mono adapter and then into front of the 14" Sony TV and bingo the interference is always gone even when I have Stereo audio plugged in, and the picture is now perfect on RGB, and the horrific buzzing noise is gone from the audio stereo mod section. Picture interference free with audio mix knob in any position. But still the picture changes brightness when you plug in the (stereo) audio to the TV at the front, same as before. Easy to compensate for using picture settings on TV. Also cannot plug back in the mono-only sound (from RF box) to front of TV as picture gets the wavy interference coming back slightly (I suspect a noisy audio ground in the RF box). To solve this I would have to take the unamplified combined mono audio from the second of the 5 pins on the NES PCB that I used in my mix mod and instead put it through a Moosmann amp or amp of some kind and then feed that into the audio RCA socket and disable the existing wiring in the RF unit for the amplified mono audio. Then the mono audio would be loud and clear and wouldn't interfere with the RGB picture.
Now only have to test this console with my 29" Sony Trinitron TV and my In76 projector. Have a feeling the TV will show a good picture but the projector might show jail bars. I haven't seen any jail bars or white borders yet on this 14" TV. Sharpness on the TV seems to be disabled (set at medium) in RGB mode.
Here's what the picture now looks like. Yaey finally I see straight vertical edges on the bricks, no more composite zig zag edges problem ;-
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Full screen black gives no interference ;-
Cheers
ARG
Wavey interference lines finally gone! :) Any flaws in the picture you see are just camera / CRT screen aliasing and not present in real life.
ARG
Odd, when I checked last night very late on, my memory when I later came to write this up was that the wavy lines interference on the screen were completely gone when stereo audio (down to mono via adapter) was plugged into front of TV.
However when I come to test this today I see that there are very slight wavy lines on there when the stereo audio is plugged into front of TV.
EDIT: later on in April 2012 I tested it again when I was getting together the parts to pre-amplify the stereo sound (not done yet) and I see a perfect RGB picture on the 14" TV with no wavy interference or jail bars when I turn up the brightness or contrast, when stereo audio is plugged into front of the same TV in the same way. But was this time using another RP2C03B now (batch no. 8L4 18, with heatsink present, I just sold it to Martin Larsen in Denmark, one of two I had with this same batch number), this chip showed faint jail bars on blues and oranges in SMB1 on my IN76 projector, but none on black backgrounds when contrast was 50 per cent and brightness at 64 per cent, and with lamp on high power mode. However this chip showed the usual small rendering glitch on the top right when playing SMB1. Also it had the 2 short blue vertical lines glitch in the World 1 of SMB2.
I had a listen on the TV and the background noise is quite low on the audio on the stereo, BUT it's noticeably low in volume and needs a lot of turning up on my TV (TV audio amp has not much gain). So I went and tried the NES with my HiFi amplifier (Technics SU-V5, old and knackered with noisy switches but it works mostly) and WHY the hell does the amp keep going into protection when I turn up the audio beyond 2.8 on the dial (1/4 of the travel) ? ??? It does it repeatedly on test, it's totally predictable. I turn the volume down and it comes back on again. It happens with 1/4 to 1/8" jack adapter into in ear headphones or large 8 ohm speakers or when speakers are switched out and headphones not connected!! :P I thought that it might be a DC offset problem on the NES audio cables but the stereo mod already has a capacitor on each of the 2 mono lines coming direct from the CPU pins 1 and 2, so DC can't be getting to the amp? HELP :-\
EDIT: OK much later I have figured out the problem, it's because the output impedance of the stereo audio is only 100 Ohms! Since the stereo audio mod takes the audio directly from CPU pins 1 and 2, just before they go into the 100 Ohm resistors (R4 and R3). Then the other ends of the resistors are tied directly to ground on the NES PCB! BTW there is also 196 ohms between CPU pins 1 and 2 (internally inside CPU) LOL. Anyway, so the RCA outers on the stereo mod are connected together, and are connected by a long wire to ground on the NES in the corner of the PCB, and then go (if you think about it) back through the 100 Ohm resistor to the CPU pins and therefore there is only 100 Ohm impedance on the output, which is very low, whereas from memory the output impedance of a typical cassette deck is over 2K Ohms, so the amp. is somehow objecting to it and cutting out! Therefore I will need an additional amplifier circuit (can't use the one in the RF box, it's ground is a source of noise, I know from trying the mono audio into the front of the TV it made the picture noisy!) to increase the output level (useful since the CD recorder that I am going into to get the stereo audio from the NES at present needs to be on maximum input level) and increase the output impedance, then I could drive my Technics audio amp. directly without it cutting off when I turn the volume up.
Fortunately the RGB picture is perfect when going into my HiFi with the stereo audio instead of going into the TV, headphones / speakers makes no difference thank goodness. I can cure the amp protection problem by plugging in the stereo from the NES to my HHB CDR800 (Pioneer PDR-05) CD Recorder and then going into the HiFi amp! The background hiss on the sound isn't perfect but it's really pretty good and there's no buzzing.
As far as picture glitches are concerned, I am getting a flashing horizontal line of red-ish pixels about 1/3 inch wide on the far right of the screen 3/4 of the way up on Super Mario Bros 1, but it appears only in one place (when I stand on the 1st pipe and go right slightly) and only comes back every few seconds so it's hard to take a picture. I get glitches at the top right when the screen is rendered every time a new level appears.
On Super Mario Bros 2, the glitch was worse, I got 2 vertical flashing blue lines about 1/3 inch long one above the other separated by 1/3 inch. Is this what they mean by "glitches that need the 68pF capacitor being put between pin 20 and pin24 of the RP2C03B" ??? Do I need to lift pin 20 or pin 24 from the NES PCB at all for this?
Finally BE WARNED that after my NES was left on for a while ages ago when I was testing, it reset, and tonight after about 1 1/2 hours of tech / playtesting the damn thing halted when playing the music in SMB1. When I got concerned and checked the PPU by putting my fingers on it, IT WAS MAD HOT (maybe 60 -65 degrees C, a bit more than hand hot), especially the die in the centre of the chip! :o And that was like 20 seconds or more after it got turned off as it took me a little while to turn the PCB over to get to it. I know that at 70C CPU's can start to bomb out (my AMD Athlon XP 2800+ does at about 70C on it's internal thermal sensor but my Core 2 in my laptop auto switches the laptop off at 88 C approx).
So another question please, why does my RP2C03B get very hot on this revision 4 PCB, and have I done it any permanent damage? My 2A03 CPU was a little warm but that's about all. The heatsink on the NES 7805 regulator was very hot and my PSU was warm. Why does Markus's PPU stay cool?!
If I need a heatsink (which I have convinced myself I do) for my PPU, which I could make out of Aluminium, what do I use to bond the heat sink to the PPU? And how do I bond it?
HELP!
Alistair G.
@Live_Steam_Mad: First part sounds like a ground issue, are pins 4 and 21(chasis) of your SCART socket also grounded? Second part does sound like graphical glitching because of the missing cap. The playchoice 10 hardware has a 68pf cap in place between pin 24 of the PPU and ground, you'll want to add that (do not lift pins). It's normal for the chip to heat up during use but as you can see most of these PPU no longer have the heat sinks and some, like the Titler, don't even come with one. Unless it gets so hot that you can't keep your finger on it for more than a couple seconds, don't worry about it.
Quote from: Salamander on August 22, 2011, 12:57:37 AM
@Live_Steam_Mad: First part sounds like a ground issue, are pins 4 and 21(chasis) of your SCART socket also grounded? Second part does sound like graphical glitching because of the missing cap. The playchoice 10 hardware has a 68pf cap in place between pin 24 of the PPU and ground, you'll want to add that (do not lift pins). It's normal for the chip to heat up during use but as you can see most of these PPU no longer have the heat sinks and some, like the Titler, don't even come with one. Unless it gets so hot that you can't keep your finger on it for more than a couple seconds, don't worry about it.
I don't understand why I would need pin 4 of SCART grounded yet (audio ground) as I am not using ANY audio on the SCART socket at all. I am (for now) feeding the audio direct into the front of the TV or direct into my HiFi amp. On the 14" TV this makes the picture on input ->1 and the sound in input ->2, this was enough to test it out with. I shall however hook up the mono and / or stereo audio to the SCART later on and report if it affects the picture.
I see that on my SCART connector that I am using (off a SNES cable that I pulled apart), the metal shell (just a sheet of metal surrounding the SCART pins) has a tag on it for soldering (a ground?) onto, and isn't connected to anything else at all (apart from maybe the ground on the PCB of the TV itself when the SCART is plugged in to the TV?). This I think is the pin 21 of SCART that you are referring to. In which case, if I solder a wire onto this tag, where do I solder the other end of the wire to? The NES PCB ground?
In which case again I don't understand how that helps with my audio HiFi amplifier going into protection every time when I turn it up more than 1/4 volume, as I haven't got the audio going anywhere near the SCART socket at all, just direct off the 2 CPU pins, via 2 caps, into dual audio 10K log (whoops should have got the linear one) potentiometer, combines with mono audio from pin 2 of the 5 pins on the NES PCB, and comes out on 2 RCA's as unamplified mix audio, then going to my HiFi. My audio amp works great with anything else, CD recorder etc, and the latter item can take my NES same audio output with no problems, loud and clear sound when put back through the HiFi amp / speakers / headphones.
>The playchoice 10 hardware has a 68pf cap in place between pin 24 of the PPU and ground, you'll want to add that (do not lift pins).
Yeah I just checked my PlayChoice 10 PCB and there is a connection (tested continuity on multimeter) from PPU pin 24 vertically down to a solder pad, then across on the underside to another pad, then downwards to a 68pF cap, through the cap and then across on the underside to a large ground that runs vertically upwards to the ground going all round the edges of the PCB. See picture below. Looks like I'm doing the 68pF cap mod then.
Sorry but I really think the PPU needs a heatsink. Later EDIT: Maybe RP2C03B was developed before RC2C05-99 (Titler PPU) and emits more heat (maybe why Nintendo added a heatsink on the PlayChoice 10)? My RP2C03B is hitting about 70+ Celcius in my NES by my reckoning (was very hot indeed on my finger and I had to switch it off and turn the board over which took maybe 25 seconds or more before I got my finger on it) so I'm going to be using some Ebay thermal paste and a heatsink off Ebay or made by myself, because the chip locked up on me twice already after being left on for a while :-[
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Here's what the graphics glitch looks like on SMB2 ;-
Cheers,
ARG
Here's my RGB mod. I don't know why my PPU runs so very hot. Maybe it's my revision of my NES? Has the 4MHz Ceramic Resonator got anything to do with it (that other NES's don't have) ?
ARG.
OK so I tested it with my 29" Sony CRT and it's terrible... but that's just due to the TV ::) TV is a KV-29K5U. It's blurry even on maximum sharpness (whereas it was very sharp indeed with my 14" Sony FD Trinitron on default sharpness) since this Super Trinitron has convergence problems on red in particular and has always had a crap picture with colored screens (but tested at 550 lines horizontal resolution when I tested the pure luminance performance!), AND the colors look off (a bit pale and puke inducing, and the sky is purple-blue which really bugs me). Not good. The picture from the NES itself was perfect though LOL.
The wavy interference came back by the very slightest amount when I plugged the stereo audio in on the front of the TV. You can't see any lines but you can just about see the slight noise in the picture, it's very hard to see though. Sound was great.
However I got what looks like faint Jail Bars :P All I had to do is turn the brightness down slightly and they disappreared completely. Doing so also helps increase the apparent color saturation and make it look nice and vibrant on the undergound section of SMB1. Can't see any problem with the picture at all when I do this, so I'm happy (just need a better TV!). Next up is testing on the In76 projector. I see from the markings on this RP2C03B that it is a later production chip compared with my white and other ones. Maybe they reduced the jail bars on these later RP2C03B's? Or maybe it's the blurriness of my TV masking the problem and I'll get them big time on my pj?
Here's what the jail bars look like on the 29" Sony (I overexposed the picture to show it, it's only a small effect in reality, and one thick vertical colored line that you can see is simply a reflection in the glass) ;-
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Here's what I am getting on the 29" Sony CRT. Ignore the aliasing patterns, they don't appear in real life.
Note the purple sky which was blue on the 14" Sony!! Why is this ??? Help!! :'(
I see that the PlayChoice 10 PCB has 3 off 490 Ohm pot's, one on each of the RGB lines. Maybe I could use similar ones on my NES and adjust these to make the sky blue? Maybe there was wide variation between arcade monitors and this is what the pot's were for?
ARG
See how you can make the jail bars vanish by simply turning the brightness down on this 29" TV ;-
ARG
@Live_Steam_Mad: About the mixed audio fed into 2 RCA connectors, have you grounded the chasis/ring on both of these? Additional grounds inside the SCART socket can be made common to the NES PCB (usually pins 4, 18 and 21 but you could also include 5, 9, 13, 17). If you are set on heatsinking the PPU then you need to remove the existing epoxy to get a clean working surface. From there you'd need to use an adhesive rather than a thermal paste to get a strong bond. The epoxy can be removed using a hair dryer and the edge of a sharp knife or razor blade, just work slowly and don't overheat the chip (unsocket it from the PCB and away from the NES when you do this).
Quote from: Salamander on August 22, 2011, 08:13:59 AM
@Live_Steam_Mad: About the mixed audio fed into 2 RCA connectors, have you grounded the chasis/ring on both of these? Additional grounds inside the SCART socket can be made common to the NES PCB (usually pins 4, 18 and 21 but you could also include 5, 9, 13, 17). If you are set on heatsinking the PPU then you need to remove the existing epoxy to get a clean working surface. From there you'd need to use an adhesive rather than a thermal paste to get a strong bond. The epoxy can be removed using a hair dryer and the edge of a sharp knife or razor blade, just work slowly and don't overheat the chip (unsocket it from the PCB and away from the NES when you do this).
Yes I grounded the audio on the 2 RCA connectors hanging from my NES! Otherwise I got the most horrendous loud buzzing imaginable from the audio being both unamplified and ungrounded. They share a common ground wire and go to the corner of the NES PCB where the controllers are which seems to be the quiestest part of the PCB in terms of ground. I will try adding mono and / or stereo audio to the SCART from the NES and then try grounding the audio (pin 4) on the SCART and also pin 16's ground (RGB selection pin) i.e. pin 18, and also the shell (pin21) by wiring them all to that same place on the NES PCB in the corner. I will also try grounding the RGB pins (5, 9, 13). Pin 17 (Composite Ground) is already going to the NES PCB, that's what got my picture to stay on the screen in the first place (otherwise it disappeared when I plugged out the mono audio from the front of the TV).
I have no idea what adhesive was used on the PPU originally but there are a lot of remnants of it on there. I don't like the idea of removing it from it's socket or applying heat so I'll try taking the stuff off another PPU that I have with no heat sink on it, as practice first. I'll try just removing it with a very sharp modelling knife. When there are only traces of the stuff left I will try some White Spirit (Mineral Spirits) to remove what's left.
Why do you say to use an adhesive instead of a thermal paste (Thermal Interface Material, TIM) or self adhesive thermal pad? what's wrong with using either of these latter two? I had the idea to use JB Weld as I have some and it's electrically conductive I think since it contains metal powder, so I think it will also be thermally conductive. But JB Weld is extremely strong and you would destroy things trying to remove it if ever the need arose in the future inless you could heat it by putting the PPU in the oven. It mentions on Wikipedia that Epoxy's strength is degraded by heating it to over 177C, but I don't like the idea of subjecting my PPU to that!
I am finding it hard to believe that others who have done this RGB mod all have their PPU's running cool after a couple of hours of use ??? Has no-one else's NES locked up because of overheating the PPU like mine does? My PPU is very hot to the touch and I can see why Nintendo gave it a heatsink on the PlayChoice 10 (which had to be left on for many many hours as it was in video arcades).
I should imagine that just a short height heat sink for a standard 40 pin DIL chip would suffice. I checked and the PPU heatsink on my other RP2C03B's is 15mm high and the EMF shield on the bottom of the NES is 2mm below the top of the expansion socket and would foul the standard heatsink, and the plastic case would also interfere with the heatsink and maybe melt the case a little. So I had the idea of cutting a hole in the shield if I can't get a "low profile" heatsink for the PPU. The standard heatsink hasn't got much surface area (which suprises me now as I know how hot my PPU gets) anyway so isn't that great for cooling.
I also find it very odd how my Composite PPU that was in there before never gave me any problems with lockups even when I soak tested it for a few days of operation (don't know how hot it got but I imagine not very since it I don't remember it being a ceramic package on the composite one whereas this RGB one is always in a ceramic package, presumably since it runs way hotter).
Why then does the Composite PPU stay cool and the RGB one run very hot?
Cheers,
Alistair G.
OK I finally got this thing plugged back into my IN76 projector after it's RGB mod and... I'm a little disappointed actually. The Composite NES was vibrant enough for me as it was, on my pj, and the new palette didn't blow me away like it did on the 14" TV. Nice to finally have vertical edges though. I see that the picture is still a little soft, the same as it was before in NTSC versus my PAL NES which was quite noticeably sharper, the 525 line softness annoys me. The pixels had harder edges in PAL.
Also the sky is a definite purple in SMB1 in RGB on my pj just like on my 29" TV whereas it was a definite blue on my 14" TV, that also VERY much annoys me (but it looked about exactly the same color as it was when I had this NTSC NES with the composite PPU, that also gave a purple sky). The PAL NES gives a blue sky on my 29" TV and pj. I did find that I could tweak the red control downwards on my pj and turn down the brightness, which made the sky a sort of compromise purple blue but it still annoys me. The picture is getting a little dark now since the bulb is at 5500 hours so it's long past it's rated life, running with the lamp power set to high put some much needed punch back into the picture but I can't stand the extra noise or shortening of lamp life...
I see that previewing SMB1 in the NEStopia emulator v1.4, the NTSC Composite PPU palette has the sky as purple, and it just about doesn't change at all the sky colour when you switch to RGB. LOL damnit, that means that the RGB value used in the game itself is purple and so would the real PlayChoice 10 arcade machine be on the sky when playing SMB1. You can see this when looking at Youtube videos of the PlayChoice 10 running SMB1 ::) No way around this one it seems.
BTW I used an RGB SCART to S-Video converter from JS Technologies for the NES to pj. Oddly enough it was giving me PAL (!) color from this converter (according to the pj OSD, changing it to NTSC color on the pj resulted in no change to the picture!). I got very slight jail bars, not enough to bother me, and very slight extra image noise when I added the stereo audio into my Pioneer DVD/HDD recorder and on into my Sony audio amp. to my headphones. This time I got a little buzzing on the sound unlike before but the buzz was at quite a low level.
EDIT: Later on I have tested the RGB SCART from my NES into my Pioneer LX60D HDD / DVD recorder which is connected via Component to my projector, and the display is near perfect, only very mild jail bars visible and only on plain blues / orange and not on black backgrounds, and the bars are quite faint.
So far my favourite is the 14" TV. Maybe I should try getting the largest 4:3 one Sony did in the FD Trinitron line so it's as good but bigger LOL. I would like to next try hooking up to a VGA monitor, my PC monitor is a 20" viewable flat screen Mitsubishi Diamondtron (4:3) with 0.24mm Aperture Grille pitch (Iiyama Vision Master Pro 514)., but I will need a CHEAP and SHARP (!) RGB SCART to VGA converter. Any good ones out there? Or a homemade one I can build from parts? Of course, the screen would I imagine still be purple on the sky on SMB1...
Here's what the jail bars look like on my pj (image over-exposed to show them, they do not look like this in real life). Ignore the larger vertical lines that are due to me using sheets of A3 paper as a screen (don't laugh!). Later I will show a picture with the brightness turned down where I get no jail bars.
Cheers,
ARG
Here's what the colors look like on the projector. Jail bars there but really rather faint and don't bother me hardly at all. All I need is a bit more sharpness and a new pj lamp and I'm happy LOL.
Cheers,
ARG
With the brightness turned down (like with the last picture above), the jail bars are not visible at all in the dark sections ;-
Notice how the pj deinterlaces / line doubles the picture so no scan lines visible.
Cheers,
ARG
For those of you who want to attempt this mod but were "perf-board challenged" like I was when I started this mod (never done any perf. board soldering in my life) here is the info needed to translate the Moosmann amp onto a perf. board. Note that you are going to be soldering the reverse side and as such you have to reverse this top down diagram below (black and white) if you want to get the connections correct on the solder side of the perf. board. That's why I have also included a picture - diagram showing the solder side later on.
Moosmann amp ;- http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fplayoffline.wordpress.com%2Fmod%2Fnesrgb%2F (http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fplayoffline.wordpress.com%2Fmod%2Fnesrgb%2F)
I used an Antex brand TCS 50W iron on medium temperature and the 1mm single eliptical face, angled (chamfered) faced bit, and Radio Shack 60/40 Tin/Lead Rosin Core Solder, 0.032" diameter, 2.5 oz (70g), code 64-005, that I had to import from USA (as I wanted what Ben Heck' had used in his book - I was still fairly new to soldering when I got it a while back).
I used a Tamiya brand standard Craft Knife with the black handle (replaceable blades, 60 degrees point, medium duty) to cut the perf. board when I wanted to make a break in the board's vertical rails. The perf' board came from Maplin ages ago. I used an 8x magnifying loupe as I cut the board. Be careful (usual disclaimer). You score the copper 5 times on each of the two break lines and then cut with the knife carefully at an angle into the board looking with the loupe and the copper comes off. When you solder, the plastic (Paxolin) will melt a little around the copper and run clear.
When making breaks where there is only a single hole needed and 2 breaks either side vertically, try to make the single hole have as much material as possible left around it, this aids mechanical strength and stops the copper from detaching from that small section. I did have one failure of the board due to this issue, but the copper came off without me doing anything to it, just a bizarre thing. Only happened on one hole though.
If you haven't soldered before, see ;- http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=53807&view=findpost&p=361706 (http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=53807&view=findpost&p=361706), and practice soldering say 12 AWG mulistrand copper Silicone covered wires onto e.g. the tabs on the endbells of RC car motors or something, then try doing the same on smaller gauge PVC covered copper wires. To be honest I can't recommend this RGB mod to beginners as soldering is an art that is leared over a few months on quite a lot of wires of practicing.
Before you do ANY soldering, you MUST cut the board first in the correct places. See my picture - diagram later on for the solder side of the board to see where to cut (pink lines).
Next after the traces are cut in the correct places, we clean each pair of vertical rails where we want to add the first component (say, the capacitor) by rubbing with a cloth and a little Isopropyl Alcohol on it a couple of times to remove the Copper Oxide / crud / finger grease (don't rub too hard, just fair pressure) otherwise the solder won't take. Now tin the rails with solder and have it run on them nicely (bright and shiny).
Then use a Swivel Head Pin Vice with 0.7mm drill bit and drill the 2 holes for the 1st component legs, drill from the top side of the board. Do NOT drill with hardly any pressure at all, ESPECIALLY where there are places where the vertical rail has been cut on both sides of a single hole or the copper might detach from the paxolin. Use a cutting mat, don't mark your table!
Before I put in a component I use a "resistor color code" chart off the web (first link in Google if you type that in) to check the resistance value is correct, and a multimeter to check it as well. For capacitors I test them also using a multimeter ("charge" them up by setting multimeter to resistance measurement, then "discharge" it by looking at the smallest DC voltage on the meter, you can see it working). I test the transistors by putting the meter on hFE (forward gain test I think) in the NPN or PNP, you should get 300 or so on the NPN, and 260 or so on the PNP.
Now put in the component, turn the board over to it's underneath, and bend the legs on the solder side of the board, and then hold the board down with say a pair of medium sized pliers (just to weight it down) but with something else underneath (I used a pen) to prop up the board at an angle so as to not damage the component underneath, and solder the legs into place. Don't leave the iron on a component leg for more than about 3 seconds (counting from 0 of course) if you can help it otherwise after more than about 6 seconds the component may well be damaged (according to the datasheets that I have seen where it mentiones "solderability" at 260C), and especially be aware of this for the transistors and capacitor. The transistor may be Silicon but it's encased in plastic and has connections to the silicon that can desolder themselves internally I believe if soldering for too long. Capacitors can explode when too hot (use eye protection, I am a spectacle wearer). The key is heat transfer using MOLTEN solder on your tip, solid solder won't conduct anywhere near as fast, and a yellow cruddy tip won't hardly conduct at all. Also, clean your tip before soldering a new joint as this puts new FLUX (from the fresh solder) on the tip and flux brings down the melting point requirement and helps make strong, conductive joints, and flux gets exhausted after about 10 seconds...
I leave just a little bit of leg showing on the top side of the board so I can if needed get a multimeter probe in there and test things. Don't have the legs go across any other holes or else you will find the drilling about 5 x more difficult as you will be drilling through Tin legs not soft solder in that case. Later on you can use the component legs to bridge from one rail to another horizontally where needed (orange in the picture). When happy with the connection (should be shiny, I like to redo them at least once until I'm happy with them) then cut off the remainder of the leg, don't have the leg overhang the rail that you are soldering to AT ALL. Also you can use bits of leg left over to bridge connections where needed. I use Tamiya brand Modellers Side Cutters (straight blades) to cut off the excess leg.
When I have soldered everything in place I check first the vertical connections and breaks (between vertical rails) and then the horizontal ones, with the loupe, in case I have bridged anything by accident. Solder has "surface tension" like any other liquid that you can exploit if you accidentally bridge two connections by running your iron along the break needed and the solder will split, as it doesn't like to flow onto the plastic between the connections. After checking with the loupe I also check for continuity with the multimeter and check that I haven't got continuity where there shouldn't be any (across breaks). Then I brace myself and test with the NES and a TV.
Once you have done one amp, the other 2 are just a repeat, and this time should be faster to do as you merely copy the components positions from the 1st amp.
I have to say though that building this amp took up 10 x more effort and time than it took to do the PPU swap itself ::) Still, I didn't fancy doing those other IC based amps with their Surface Mount chips...
First here's the top down (i.e. component side) diagram. I drew the ground as brown to match Markus's amp but then realised I didn't have any brown wire spare so I used white wire instead. The ground wire runs into the very top right of the board on this diagram ;-
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Here is the solder side of the perf. board. Orange are horizontal bridge connections. Pink are BREAKS in the board. Green are connections due to components on the top side (component side) of the board. This picture is showing the underside of the board (solder side). Green E, B, C are the NPN transistor, black C,B,E are the PNP transistor. When doing the 2nd amp's ground I decided to use an extra connection just above the Red out, simply to add mechanical strength there where it is weak since there are only single hole connections going across the board at that point. The actual ground wire went in to the left of R2 as with the 1st amp. I did the same with the 3rd amp. I used 1 more vertical rail on the very left on the 1st amp than I really needed to, my mistake. You daisy chain the ground from 1st to 2nd to 3rd amp. Same daisy chain idea with the +5V (black) wire. Don't hook up anything from the SCART to this PCB, the ground noise is incredible!
I didn't show the rest of the connections for the 2nd and 3rd amp's as they are simply the same as the 1st amp.
ARG
Here's what the 3 amp's look like when finished ;-
I will later on cut up the perf board to make the size the minimum as is practical. For now I connected the color wires onto the bottom of the board for convenience and speed. No blue wires connected in this shot below as I wanted to see the effect of just red and green connected first! The final +5V black wire that you can see on the end of the daisy chain of my 3rd amp' is going off to my SCART pin 16 (through a 75 Ohm resistor) to force the TV into RGB mode. The white Ground wire ends it's daisy chain at the 3rd amp and doesn't go any further.
Cheers,
ARG
I tried to remove the adhesive off an RP2C03 with no heatsink and it was impossible to scrape off, it doesn't look like epoxy to me, either that or it's gone ultrahard. The knife blade couldn't remove the slightest bit. However then I realised that the raised central hump that contains the die is NOT heatsinked at all :o . It's only the 2 far left and right sides of the chip that had adhesive on that are heatsinked. How stupid. So the heatsink has very little surface area and is really touching in the wrong place. Doah.
Thus, a low profile heat sink for 40 pin DIL, mounted on the flat main die area in the middle with some thermal paste or a thermal pad should work I think, and actually should be more effective than the original, and I won't have to clean off any of that ultra hard adhesive remains. Except where some of it sticks up a bit too much and I'll sand it back down to clear any new heatsink.
Suitable heatinks I think would be e.g. http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/94188.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/94188.pdf) DIP4197, or http://uk.digikey.com/1/1/4211968-heatsink-40-pin-dip-glue-blk-508700b00000g.html (http://uk.digikey.com/1/1/4211968-heatsink-40-pin-dip-glue-blk-508700b00000g.html) etc.
Pictures below to illustrate the point LOL.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
It's an epoxy resin. Nintendo used something nearly identical to cover SMD chips in the Wii which is how I know it can be removed using heat and a sharp knife. I cleaned mine off just to make it pretty.
I've safely removed plenty of heatsinks by just grabbing the heatsink with vice grips, sticking a small flatblade screwdriver in that hole in the side and prying the chip and heatsink apart.
Quote from: Salamander on August 23, 2011, 07:46:52 AM
It's an epoxy resin. Nintendo used something nearly identical to cover SMD chips in the Wii which is how I know it can be removed using heat and a sharp knife. I cleaned mine off just to make it pretty.
Yep you're right about it being removable with heat and a sharp knife. I used a 1.6KW hair dryer and it has a 2" x 1" diffuser on it and I set it to medium air flow and maximum heat and put a pair of old cotton pajamas on the kitchen lino floor and put the PPU onto the cloth and then blasted one end with the hair dryer for 30 seconds, no more. The cloth of the pj's grips the legs of the PPU automagically and stops it moving. Then I pulled some cloth over the rest of the PPU to stop me getting burned (WOW it gets HOT maybe over 120C or so I imagine, it's nearly burning me through the cloth LOL, don't wanna risk any more than 30 seconds on the hairdryer unless I damage the PPU) and then scraped the black stuff with a Tamiya brand Fine craft knife (30 degrees point) which had a sharp blade but blunt point after my Brother had been at it. Probably for the best as I don't want to dig into the ceramic too much. On one side it came off without too much effort, after only a couple of tries of the hairdryer, but the stuff on the other end of the chip was layed on thick and gave me quite a lot of grief and it took much scraping and goes with the hairdryer, quite annoying. But I got there in the end, and got all of it off so the chip looks way better now. I bent a few PPU pins but they are easily straightened again. Moral is don't press too hard or move forwards / backwards too forcefully when scraping LOL.
Later EDIT: I used a thick bed blanket the second time around on my next PPU so that the legs didn't get bent hardly at all.
This RP2C03B that I scraped clean (later EDIT: which was batch no. 8L4 18, with no heatsink present, I just sold one with the same batch number to Martin Larsen of Denmark but that had a heatsink on it) is a different one to the one I previously used (which was the 9F3 27 batch one with the straight legs, not the other one from the same batch number which had horridly folded up bent legs that I straightened), I decided to use it this time in my NES so I could fit a heatsink later on and I wanted to see if this second one worked as well. It worked in my precision socket first time, so that makes 2 working ones so far from the lot I bought. It's got a number on it which is lower than the one I was using before. It performs much the same and has the same glitches in SMB2 although this time no blue lines on the World 1 itself, only in the green hills first section, I also saw a white border on the opening screen of SMB2 and on the later intro screens just before the game starts, which I don't remember seeing before. No white border at all in the game though.
SMB1 looked great no jail bars but the sky was a lot more purple blue this time than I remember it being last time on this 14" Sony CRT ::) Wierd.
Also when I plug the stereo audio in to my CD recorder and then on to my Technics amp I now don't get any visible picture flaws at all whereas with the previous PPU I got slight noise when I plugged the audio in. Didn't try plugging the mono audio into the front of the TV this time. The music and graphics from SMB2 on the 14" TV in RGB are absolutely mesmerizing ;D Everything ultra sharp on the default sharpness (medium).
Once again after playtesting for maybe 30 min's, the PPU was rather hot, maybe a little under 60C, not burning my finger though but was very hot when I put my upper lip on it as a test (!). I'm still going to try attaching a heatsink to it. Can't hurt can it?!
Picture below shows the PPU after it's scrape clean showing the results. Also a pic' showing the jail bars I get in SMB2 if I turn the 14" TV brightness wayy up and I overexposed it to show them. When the brightness is just over half way with contrast on 80 per cent the image is dazzling bright and no jail bars visible whatsoever.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
GPU RAM heatsinks (like these: http://tinyurl.com/3fbcx5l (http://tinyurl.com/3fbcx5l)) would probably do the trick and usually have a thermal adhesive pad backing. If you want something more substantial try Arctic Silver thermal adhesive. I'd personally like to see how the C1 PPU was prepared since the heatsink there is different from what is in the Playchoice and covers the entire chip.
I was out of town in Italy and now I´m vocationally busy. I havent read all postings, but i read them this weekend. To answer two questions:
1.) The Graphic problem in SMB2 is normal. You don`t see them on a crt with overscan. If you use the 2C03 "C" PPUs or the PPU from FC Titler, they don`t have them.
2.) C1 heatsink is attach direktly on the middle square with marking from the PPU and not on the ceramic package. C1 PPU is working 100% identical with the Playchoice PPU.
Greetings Markus
from my experience jailbars are effected by two things:
The first is: The type of nes/famicom pcb you're using. So far the most jailbar free pcbs I've found are the nes 2 and the av famicom
The second is: The rgb ppu chip itself...... I did 6 commission av famicoms with rgb, s-video, audio upgrades, the works. I went through 8 rgb chips, they all came from dual moniter playchoice boards and they were all rp2c03b....but one chip had less jailbars than the others.... Right now my revision 2 av famicom has the "good" ppu inside of it and I get jailbars in....well.....nothing
all my legit carts are jailbar free. My powerpak is jailbar free. And all my repro carts are jailbar free too. If I take screen captures from the good ppu on my ultra sensitive capture card you can see there's still some interference but it's much too weak to show up on my crt. I also took screen captures from my other rgb chips and the interference was stronger on the other chips.
But even with the common rgb chip inside of my av famicom I only got annoying jailbars on duck tales 1 stage 1 and the stage select in my rockman 1 reproduction cart. And my powerpak would have mild jailbars that weren't really strong enough to annoy me.
One client I did a commission for said he gets mild jailbars on his hdtv through a xrgb3. But he said it's not that bad. Another client said his rgb av famicom is way better than his rgb toaster. He was also surprised that the s-video right out of the system coming from a cxa1645 circuit looks amazing.
Here's s-video straight into a hd tv
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff253/TheDrakon/av%20famicom%20model%202/withoutxrgb.jpg)
Here's some more pics of the systems in action
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff253/TheDrakon/av%20famicom%20model%202/smbrgb.jpg)
(http://picserver.weebly.com/uploads/6/6/1/6/6616768/8372547_orig.jpg)
All s-video
Quote from: Salamander on August 25, 2011, 01:50:35 AM
GPU RAM heatsinks (like these: http://tinyurl.com/3fbcx5l (http://tinyurl.com/3fbcx5l)) would probably do the trick and usually have a thermal adhesive pad backing. If you want something more substantial try Arctic Silver thermal adhesive. I'd personally like to see how the C1 PPU was prepared since the heatsink there is different from what is in the Playchoice and covers the entire chip.
Hey thanks for the link to those heatsinks, looks like they could be rather useful for this application.
The RP2C03B has a space either side of the raised central (die) section, each space is 18mm long x 15mm wide. The die containing central section is 14mm square and is raised up about 1mm above the left and right sections.
I have ordered some and I will try them. I like the self adhesive thermal pads that they have and their 6mm low profile Aluminium alloy heatsinks. In case anyone wants to buy them later on but can't find them when the Ebay link dies after 90 days, the description is "8 x GPU RAM VRM Heatsinks With Adhesive Thermal Tape" and "8 small heatsinks suitable for RAM, GPU's, games consoles, laptops, and other electronics to provide better cooling and reduce over-heating.
* The heatsinks come with 3M adheisive thermal tape on the back, just peel and stick!
* The shape helps to quickly dissipate heat.
* Made from aluminium alloy.
* Each heatsink is approx 15x14mm and 6mm high.
I use these on my ATI 5870's bare memory chips and they knock about 10C off at idle, and 20C at load!".
Sounds like just what I need. BTW here is a picture showing how high the PlayChoice 10 PPU / heatsink combo. sticks out below the expansion port. It's a shame that the chip will be upside down in the NES, it doesn't do the heat transfer characteristics any favours.
I ran the board with the this exact PPU in the picture below facing downwards for several hours and it didn't hang the NES. When I felt the heatsink it was as hot as a hot cup of tea, and I was able to keep my fingers on it for 10 seconds and over without burning myself, but I thought to myself wow if it's this hot with a heatsink, how hot does it get without one (!). I think it runs cooler in the PC10 as the enclosure it's in is larger and made of metal, and the board is on it's side and it isn't upside down in a small plastic container like it is in the NES.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Here is the bottom of the toaster NES showing why the PlayChoice 10 heatsink won't fit, it's because of the plastic below the expansion port that is recessed upwards into the casing.
ARG
I found out (after much scraping of the Epoxy off the chip) that it doesn't matter how sharp a craft knife you use on the left and right sections of the RP2C03B or how hard you scrape (you'll only bend the legs of the chip if you put too much pressure on, and the sharp blade becomes blunt towards the front) and there's sometimes only so much you can remove using the hairdryer and knife. My original RP2C03B that I used (pictured below) was a bitch to clean, the Epoxy just wouldn't all come off, so then I just started scraping at it with a fresh blade in my Tamiya Fine craft knife on a cutting board. I attacked the hell out of it. The ceramic started to look shiny or metallic like in places almost as if I had removed the top layer of ceramic and exposed something underneath
Then I also discovered that sometimes the only way to remove the remnants on there is to use P400 grade Silicon Carbide (used dry). After much sanding the remains finally started to slowly come off. The shiny areas of the ceramic where I thought I had damaged the surface just went back to being purple matt again and the epoxy showed up really well by going matt black. Then I realised that you cannot damage the surface at all with the P400, even the gold line and plus sign. All went well and I got off all of the remains of the epoxy and then cleaned with White Spirit and it looks like new again. The surface is very smooth to the touch, as the ceramic is extremely hard and resists the P400 grit almost completely. I think it will be a good enough surface to accept the thermal pad on the heatsinks that I bought, I just hope the heatsinks don't come off when the chip is upside down in the NES and is hot.
Also I had a thought that I clean every cart I buy with Isopropyl Alcohol on the contacts using cotton buds on plastic sticks, and I am plugging in old dirty chips into my nice clean new precision socket, so I thought that I should clean the legs of each PPU that I try. So I clean the insides of the legs with the same method and by putting the chip on a sheet of Aluminium whilst I am doing it, and then clean the outsides of the legs by placing the legs of the chip along the edge of the Alu. sheet so they don't get bent.
First pic' below shows the chip just after I had finished attacking the heck out of it with the sharp knife / hairdryer. Second pic shows what it looks like after you use P400 on it and then wipe with White Spirit (Mineral Spirits).
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Quote from: Moosmann on August 25, 2011, 04:45:09 AM
I was out of town in Italy and now I´m vocationally busy. I havent read all postings, but i read them this weekend. To answer two questions:
1.) The Graphic problem in SMB2 is normal. You don`t see them on a crt with overscan. If you use the 2C03 "C" PPUs or the PPU from FC Titler, they don`t have them.
2.) C1 heatsink is attach direktly on the middle square with marking from the PPU and not on the ceramic package. C1 PPU is working 100% identical with the Playchoice PPU.
Greetings Markus
Hi Markus, thanks for the help with getting my TV into RGB mode (5V onto pin 16 via 75Ohm resistor) it worked great and I got an excellent quality color picture.
In 1) above, when you say that this graphical problem in SMB2 is normal, are you meaning that it is always present on the RP2C03B when you don't add any cap from pin 20 to pin 24, or are you saying that it is always still there after you have applied the 68pF cap?
I see you said that the C1 TV puts the heatsink on the middle section, that's the proper (intelligent!) way of doing it. I will be putting a small heatsink on both sides (left and right) and also one in the middle to completely cover the chip (since every chip I ever saw with a heatsink always covers the whole chip, the PC10 PPU was the first chip I saw that left the central core with no heatsink on it but the left and right covered!
Does the C1 use the same RP2C03B chip? Or yet another variant that performs the same? Later EDIT: No, the Sharp C1 Famicom TV uses the RP2C03C, which, along with the Titler chip (RC2C05-99) do not have the 2 blue vertical lines glitch on the last column of pixels in SMB2.
Have you got any pictures of the PPU inside the Sharp C1 Famicom TV? I'd love to see that. I couldn't find any online despite Google searches...
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Quote from: Drakon on August 25, 2011, 10:29:17 AM
Right now my revision 2 av famicom has the "good" ppu inside of it and I get jailbars in....well.....nothing
Hi Drakon,
I didn't know there were 2 different revisions of the AV Famicom?! Got any links or pics showing the 2 PCB's?
Personally I can't see what all the fuss is about with the jail bars, they never show up on my revision 4 NES on SMB1 or SMB2 (the only games I have yet!) on my 14" TV and 29" TV and I can only see them when I turn the brightness way up. With contrast at 75 per cent and brightness just over half way or a bit more the jail bars are invisible, with room light on or off, viewing on TV. Doesn't matter which PPU I use out of the 3 of 5 I have tested so far. Even on the very clean and sharp projector that usually shows every slightest defect in everything I see only very faint jail bars. With room light on or off viewing the pj. And I only have an NTSC USA toaster NES. The 3 RP2C03B chips I tried so far all have the same amount of jail bars at very high brightness TV setting (including a later production one and a very early white ceramic and gold one).
What capture card are you using? I don't have one! I also don't have a HDTV to test with but I do plan on getting a line doubler for use with my PC CRT monitor. However I tried 640 x 480 on my PC and I hate the scanlines on it. I would like a scaler and line doubler combo or separates, preferably something cheap-ish or a circuit that I can build. Wish someone would give me a schematic for one. I have no money for expensive scalers etc.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
easiest way to tell the revision is the bottom sticker
(http://imgboot.com/images/Drakon/shhhhhhhhhh.jpg)
one on the left is revision 2, one on the right is revision 1
also when you open them up the rev 1 says something like hvcn-cpu-01 rev 2 says hvcn-cpu-02
my capture card is easycap
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Save-HD-XBOX-360-PS3-Wii-Grabber-USB-CAPTURE-CARD-/270805100464?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f0d3de7b0 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Save-HD-XBOX-360-PS3-Wii-Grabber-USB-CAPTURE-CARD-/270805100464?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f0d3de7b0)
On the toaster models nes-cpu-10 and nes-cpu-11 I got jailbars pretty much all the time. On the nes 2 and the av famicom I only get visible jailbars on duck tales 1 american cart, rockman 1 reproduction cart, and very mild jailbars on the powerpak
OK so I fitted the 68pF capacitor as recommended by Markus for the RP2C03B (and after tracing the circuit on the PlayChoice 10 myself, there is indeed a 68 pF cap between pin 20 / ground and pin 24. I checked my NES and there is no resistance between one leg of the cap and ground, and no resistance between the other leg of the cap and pin 24. There are now no signs of the horizontal broken blue lines on the underground stages of SMB1, or anywhere else on that game (so it seems the cap mod only solves the horizontal short flashing lines problems), BUT there are still the 2 flashing short vertical blue lines in SMB2 on a lot or all of level 1 and still a white border to the right on the intro screens of SMB2. This is quite annoying. There is also the less annoying glitch on the top right whilst rendering new screens on SMB1.
I understand that if I could get a video processor or enter the engineering setup menu of my 14" TV I could engage more overscan and make the glitches dissappear off the edges of the screen, but I wanted to know if these glitches on SMB2 are visible when playing the official SMB2 PC10 version on an actual PlayChoice 10 arcade cab' ??? as my NES is using the PPU from my PC10 board. Or does the PlayChoice 10 use just enough or quite a lot of overscan on it's monitor to get rid of the problem? Is there an overscan control on the monitor of the PC10 to adjust the overscan?
No-one online seems to have done a video of the PlayChoice 10 running SMB2. Although, comparing NEStopia to a real PlayChoice 10 running SMB1 ;- Nintendo Playchoice 10 Arcade Review (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJKT1Ie0GSo#) ...I can infer that Gamester81's real PC10 shows line 1 (not line 0, line 0 is off the left edge of the screen) and line 255 with a border after the latter (I don't know if you can vary the overscan on a PC10 monitor). See at 6m21s into video. So surely PC10 on SMB2 should also have that glitch that I get ? If not then there is something that the PC10 board is doing that I am not. I shall ask this guy about SMB2 as he has that game on his PC10 and have a look at my PC10 PCB again.
On the bright side all of my 5 PPU's work astonishingly, even the one which had the rediculously mashed up legs that I showed a picture of where I straightened the legs. Now waiting for my low profile heatsinks to arrive so I can stick them onto my PPU (I am using the one with the highest batch number printed on it that I have, the 9F one). I tested and all 5 RP2C03B's have the same glitches in SMB2. So Markus is right, the glitch is normal for the RP2C03B (at least in my Revision 4 NTSC USA NES) and a 68pF cap doesn't solve the problem. Darn.
Pic' below shows the cap and where I soldered it to on my revision 4 NES. I did this like Markus shows on his webpage, i.e. connected one leg of the cap to ground instead of pin 20, for neatness. I checked and there is definitely no resistance between pin 20 and ground on the NES in any case. I used a 5 per cent tolerance (coded J) metallised ceramic plate capacitor from Maplin, with a temperature coefficient of near zero (temperature stabilised) (you can tell from the black paint on the top of it).
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Here is my RGB mod so far (see pic' below) showing the places that I took ground from on the NES PCB for Composite Sync Ground and stereo audio mod ground instead of taking ground from on the Moosmann amp, to get a noise free picture with no visible jail bars on my mod as long as brightness is just over medium and contrast at 75 per cent or below. Still have to add the extra audio amp for the stereo mod. My 14" TV Sony KV-14LT1U has ENORMOUS punch and the colors look dazzling, it has many times more brightness than my 20" CRT PC monitor or my projector, I adore it, and am now looking to buy the KV-21LT1U. Don't think they made a larger one than 21 inch in that model? I tried running NEStopia in 640 x 480 and hated the scan lines, and at 1280 x 960 the scanlines are gone and it's sharp but the display on my PC CRT monitor is very dissappointing, at maximum brightness and contrast the white lettering at the top of the screen in SMB1 looks grey. Not good compared to my dazzling 14" CRT TV.
Cheers,
ARG
I just found a page showing the NES palette compared to the RGB palette ;-
(http://www.chrismcovell.com/images/Fami_Comp_RGB_Difference.jpg)
http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=7200&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15 (http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=7200&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15) (page 2)
Credit goes to ccovell of Japan for this.
Cheers,
ARG
Makes perfect sense now why the background in stage 2 of Castlevania changes from red to a shade of purple. Again though, I'd point out you can fix most of the oversaturation just by adding pots. In my experience blue is really the main offender and dialing just that line back a little bit can make all the difference.
Oh heck if you're using s-video like me you can just add resistors to the chroma wire. Me personally I love the ultra bright and vibrant colours of the rgb ppu
OK I got a reply from Gamester81 who has a PlayChoice 10 cab and SMB2 working on it and he said "Hey Alistair, My SMB2 works fine on my Playchoice 10 without any glitches. It sounds like it could be the connection to the board perhaps. I'm not really too savvy when it comes to stuff like this though to be honest. I'm sorry I'm not much of a help.
-John"
So it begs the question, how come his screen shows the WHOLE of the pixels on the right of SMB1 (from 1 to 255, doesn't show the very left most pixel i.e. pixel 0) and so the glitch should show up on his SMB2 game since I thought it used identical code and an identical PPU to me (RP2C03B that I took out of my PC10 PCB's that I have right here), and he doesn't see the vertical blue flashing lines glitch on his PC10 BUT I SEE THEM ON MY RGB NES ??? :-[ WHY the hell is this? Personally I still think we are missing something from the PC10 PCB which isn't on my NES board which would maybe solve this (like the 68pF cap did for the flashing horizontal lines in SMB1 etc). We need this sorting out, we've come this far already, surely we can solve this?
Over to you Markus, Baku, Drakon, or any of you other NES genius's out there. HELP!!
I'll try and contact Kevtris as well, he seems to be the ultimate god of modding.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Right, I went all the way through pins 1 to 40 on the PPU on the PlayChoice 10 schematic ;-
http://www.basementarcade.com/arcade/library/manuals/p/index.html (http://www.basementarcade.com/arcade/library/manuals/p/index.html)
http://playchoice.riemen.net/rep_manuals.html (http://playchoice.riemen.net/rep_manuals.html)
...and simulteously traced all the lines with a multimeter for all the interesting signals (ones that weren't data or address) and I found ;-
pin 1 is R/W_, goes direct to pin 34 of 2A03 CPU and pin 13 of IC 3G and pin 21 (WE) of IC 2K (2K x 8 bits SRAM / Work RAM)
pin 2 is D0, goes direct to pin 9 of IC 2K ( WRAM) and pin 3 of IC 8F and pin 3 of IC 8E and pin B30 of PC10 ROM cart slot and direct to pin 18 of IC 1K (LS245, 3 state Bus Tranceiver) then out of pin 2 of IC 1K direct to pin 28 of 2A03 CPU
pin 3 is D1, goes direct to pin 10 of IC 2K (WRAM) and pin 5 of IC 8F and pin 5 of IC 8E and pin B29 of PC10 ROM cart slot and pin 17 of IC 1K (LS245, 3 state Bus Tranceiver) then out of pin 3 of IC 1K direct to pin 27 of 2A03 CPU
pin 4 is D2, goes direct to pin 11 of IC 2K (WRAM) and pin 9 of IC 8F and pin 9 of IC 8E and pin B28 of PC10 ROM cart slot then and pin 16 of IC 1K (LS245, 3 state Bus Tranceiver) then out of pin 4 of IC 1K direct to pin 26 of 2A03 CPU
pin 5 is D3, goes direct pin 13 of IC 2K (WRAM) and pin 11 of IC 8F and pin 11 of IC 8E and pin B27 of PC10 ROM cart slot and to pin 15 of IC 1K (LS245, 3 state Bus Tranceiver) then out of pin 5 of IC 1K direct to pin 25 of 2A03 CPU
pin 6 is D4, goes direct to pin 14 of IC 2K (WRAM) and pin 13 of IC 8F and pin 13 of IC 8E and pin B26 of PC10 ROM cart slot and pin 14 of IC 1K (LS245, 3 state Bus Tranceiver) then out of pin 6 of IC 1K direct to pin 24 of 2A03 CPU
pin 7 is D5, goes direct to pin 15 of IC 2K (WRAM) and pin B25 of PC10 ROM cart slot and pin 13 of IC 1K (LS245, 3 state Bus Tranceiver) then out of pin 7 of IC 1K direct to pin 23 of 2A03 CPU
pin 8 is D6, goes direct to pin 16 of IC 2K (WRAM) and pin B24 of PC10 ROM cart slot and pin 12 of IC 1K (LS245, 3 state Bus Tranceiver) then out of pin 8 of IC 1K direct to pin 22 of 2A03 CPU
pin 9 is D7, goes direct to pin 17 of IC 2K (WRAM) and pin B23 of PC10 ROM cart slot and pin 11 of IC 1K (LS245, 3 state Bus Tranceiver) then out of pin 9 of IC 1K direct to pin 21 of 2A03 CPU
pin 10 is RS2 (PRG A02), goes direct to pin 6 of 2A03 CPU (A2) and pin 6 of IC 2K (WRAM) and pin 15 of IC 1L (3-state Bus Tranceiver) then comes out of pin 5 of IC 1L then goes direct to C25 of PC10 ROM cart slot
pin 11 is RS1 (PRG A01), goes direct to pin 5 of 2A03 CPU (A1) and pin 7 of IC 2K (WRAM) and pin 2 of IC 1L (3-state Bus Tranceiver) then comes out of pin 18 of IC 1L then goes direct to C24 of PC10 ROM cart slot
pin 12 is RS0 (PRG A00), goes direct to pin 4 of 2A03 CPU (A0) and pin 8 of IC 2K (WRAM) and pin 17 of IC 1L (3-state Bus Tranceiver) then comes out of pin 3 of IC 1L then goes direct to C23 of PC10 ROM cart slot
pin 13 is DBE_, goes direct to pin 5 of IC 2L (74LS139, Dual 2-to-4 line decoder/demultiplexer)
pin 14 is Red, goes direct to Base of transistor Q11
pin 15 is Green, goes direct to Base of transistor Q14
pin 16 is Blue, goes direct to Base of transistor Q17
pin 17 is labelled as "MV GND" and goes direct to PC10's Ground and direct to pin 11 of IC 3E (Op. Amp. LM324's Ground)
pin 18 is CLocK, goes into pin 10 of IC 2G (74S04N, Hex Inverter)
pin 19 is INTerrupt (NMI_) and goes direct to pin 33 (NMI_) of 2A03 CPU, also through 10K ohms and then onto the main rail around the edge of the board, then through 120Ohms to ground. Also pin 19 goes to pin 13 of IC 8G (74LS04N, Hex Inverter)
pin 20 PPU goes directly to Ground (0V)
pin 21 is SYNC_, goes THROUGH C21 0.2uF CAPACITOR and then through 100K resistor, then through 120Ohms to ground. Also goes through this capacitor to the Base of transistor Q8 (C1740)
pin 22 is RST_ (PPU Reset), goes direct to pin 6 of IC 7E (LS 259) and to pin 9 of IC 3G (74LS04, Hex Inverter)
pin 23 is WE_, goes direct to pin 21 of IC 4k (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM) and to pin 8 of IC 3M (LS244, Bus Transceiver), then out of pin 12 of IC3M to A19 of PC10 ROM cart socket
pin 24 is RD_, goes direct to pin 20 (OE) of IC 4k (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM), and also via C44 68pF capacitor to ground, and goes (optionally) via SL5 solder enablable link to C45 100pF cap, then to ground
pin 25 is PA13, goes direct to pin 10 of IC 5S (LS368A, Buffer) then out of pin 9 of IC 5S and into B12 of PC10 ROM cart socket labelled as PA13 (inverted) (IC 5S on the schematic is acting as an inverter) and also from PPU pin 25 direct to pin 6 of IC 3M (LS 244, Bus Tranceiver)
pin 26 is PA12, goes direct to pin 13 of IC 3M (LS 244, Bus Tranceiver with the pin 1 i.e. data flow DIRection control pin grounded) then out of pin 7 of IC 3M then into PA12 i.e. A17 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
pin 27 is PA11, goes direct to pin 4 of IC 3M (LS 244, Bus Tranceiver with the pin 1 i.e. data flow DIRection control pin grounded) then out of pin 16 of IC 3M then into PA11 i.e. A16 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
pin 28 is PA10, goes direct to pin 15 of IC 3M (LS 244, Bus Tranceiver with the pin 1 i.e. data flow DIRection control pin grounded) then out of pin 5 of IC 3M then into PA10 i.e. A15 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
pin 29 is PA9, goes direct to pin 22 of IC 4K (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM) and goes direct from pin 22 of VRAM to pin 2 of IC 3M (LS 244, Bus Tranceiver with the pin 1 i.e. data flow DIRection control pin grounded) then out of pin 18 of IC 3M then into PA9 i.e. A14 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
pin 30 is PA8, goes direct to pin 23 of IC 4K (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM) and goes direct from pin 23 of VRAM to pin 17 of IC 3M (LS 244, Bus Tranceiver with the pin 1 i.e. data flow DIRection control pin grounded) then out of pin 3 of IC 3M then into PA8 i.e. A13 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
PPU pin 31 is AD7, goes direct to pin 18 of IC 3K (Toshiba TC74HC373AP, Octal i.e. eight D-Type Latches) then out of pin 19 of IC 3K and into A7 i.e. pin 1 of IC 4K (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM) and from A7 of VRAM direct to pin PA7 i.e. C14 of PC10 ROM cart socket. Also PPU pin 31 goes direct to AD 7 (D7) i.e. pin 17 of VRAM and goes direct from pin 17 of VRAM to PD7 i.e. B13 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
PPU pin 32 is AD6, goes direct to pin 3 of IC 3K (Toshiba TC74HC373AP, Octal i.e. eight D-Type Latches) then out of pin 2 of IC 3K and into A6 i.e. pin 1 of IC 4K (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM) and from A6 of VRAM direct to pin PA6 i.e. C15 of PC10 ROM cart
socket. Also PPU pin 32 goes direct to AD 6 (D6) i.e. pin 16 of VRAM and goes direct from pin 16 of VRAM to PD6 i.e. B14 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
PPU pin 33 is AD5, goes direct to pin 17 of IC 3K (Toshiba TC74HC373AP, Octal i.e. eight D-Type Latches) then out of pin 16 of IC 3K and into A5 i.e. pin 3 of IC 4K (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM) and from A5 of VRAM direct to pin PA5 i.e. C16 of PC10 ROM cart
socket. Also PPU pin 33 goes direct to AD 5 i.e. pin 15 of VRAM and goes direct from pin 15 of VRAM to PD5 i.e. B15 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
PPU pin 34 is AD4, goes direct to pin 4 of IC 3K (Toshiba TC74HC373AP, Octal i.e. eight D-Type Latches) then out of pin 5 of IC 3K and into A4 i.e. pin 4 of IC 4K (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM) and from A4 of VRAM direct to pin PA4 i.e. C17 of PC10 ROM cart
socket. Also PPU pin 34 goes direct to AD 4 i.e. pin 14 of VRAM and goes direct from pin 14 of VRAM to PD4 i.e. B16 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
PPU pin 35 is AD3, goes direct to pin 14 of IC 3K (Toshiba TC74HC373AP, Octal i.e. eight D-Type Latches) then out of pin 15 of IC 3K and into A3 i.e. pin 5 of IC 4K (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM) and from A3 of VRAM direct to pin PA3 i.e. C18 of PC10 ROM cart
socket. Also PPU pin 35 goes direct to AD 3 i.e. pin 13 of VRAM and goes direct from pin 13 of VRAM to PD3 i.e. B17 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
PPU pin 36 is AD2, goes direct to pin 7 of IC 3K (Toshiba TC74HC373AP, Octal i.e. eight D-Type Latches) then out of pin 6 of IC 3K and into A2 i.e. pin 6 of IC 4K (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM) and from A2 of VRAM direct to pin PA2 i.e. C19 of PC10 ROM cart
socket. Also PPU pin 36 goes direct to AD 2 i.e. pin 11 of VRAM and goes direct from pin 11 of VRAM to PD2 i.e. B18 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
PPU pin 37 is AD1, goes direct to pin 13 of IC 3K (Toshiba TC74HC373AP, Octal i.e. Eight D-Type Latches) then out of pin 12 of IC 3K and into A1 i.e. pin 7 of IC 4K (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM) and from A1 of VRAM direct to pin PA1 i.e. C20 of PC10 ROM cart
socket. Also PPU pin 37 goes direct to AD 1 i.e. pin 10 of VRAM and goes direct from pin 10 of VRAM to PD1 i.e. B19 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
PPU pin 38 is AD0, goes direct to pin 8 of IC 3K (Toshiba TC74HC373AP, Octal i.e. Eight D-Type Latches) then out of pin 9 of IC 3K and into A0 i.e. pin 8 of IC 4K (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM) and from A0 of VRAM direct to pin PA0 i.e. C21 of PC10 ROM cart
socket. Also PPU pin 38 goes direct to AD 0 i.e. pin 9 of VRAM and goes direct from pin 9 of VRAM to PD0 i.e. B20 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
pin 39 is ALE, goes direct to pin 2 of IC 4L (LS367A), and goes (optionally) via SL2 solder enablable link to pin 11 of IC 3K (TC74HC373), then via 120 Ohms to ground (well, 117.3 Ohms as I measured it)
pin 40 is +VCC, +5V in
So the ONLY unaccounted for capacitor (i.e. is on PC10 but is NOT on my revision 4 NES) is on the Sync line, just before the signal is amplifed. So the question is, does putting a cap somewhere in the sync line remove the vertical short blue lines in Super Mario Bros 2 ???
Anyone else know how to fix this darned PPU glitch problem?
Drakon, did you get this on your modded NES / Famicoms with RP2C03B in SMB2?
Also here below is a picture showing the path of the Sync line on my NES revision 4, it goes from PPU pin 21, then straight to a transistor, NO caps in that section up to the transistor. So the PC10 uses a cap in the Sync line and the NES doesn't. Maybe because the Composite NES is using Composite Video out of that pin whereas the PC10 uses Composite Sync. Therefore I think I need a cap on this section just before it enters that transistor? Or would it be OK to just add e.g. 220 uF just before Composite Sync enters pin 20 of SCART? As I haven't got a cap there. I hope I don't have to cut the trace leading from pin 21 to that transistor and add a cap in there, I hate the idea of cutting traces. Would be fairly simple to do though I suppose as luckily there are tiny pads on the board there on that line for soldering wires onto.
On my PC10 PCB with the mashed PPU socket;-
CPU is RP2A03E batch 8M3 51
IC 3G is a Texas Instruments SN74LS04N made in Malaysia, batch 913CS, the PC10 schematic says "LS04" (Hex Inverter i.e. six inverters).
IC2K is Toshiba TMM2115BP-15 made in Japan, batch 8833HBK (2K x 8 bits SRAM 150ns/ Work RAM)
IC1K is a Texas Instruments SN74LS245N, batch J836BJ44, the PC10 schematic says "LS245" (Octal i.e. Eight Bus Tranceivers with 3 State Outputs. The 3-State Outputs can drive Bus lines directly. Also called a Bi-directional Eight-Bit Buffer. It is designed for asynchronous two-way communication between data buses. The devices allow data transmission from the A bus to the B bus or from the B bus to the A bus, depending on the logic level at the direction-control (DIRection) input, pin 1. The output-enable (OE) input can disable the device so that the buses are effectively isolated). LS244 is the non-inverting version, LS245 here is also a non-inverting version from what I found.
IC8F is a Texas Instruments SN74LS368AN made in Malaysia, batch 921CR, the PC10 schematic says "LS368A" (Hex bus drivers with 3-state outputs", or "Buffer Memory Address Registers", also called "Hex Buffers" and "Line Drivers", or "Drive Bus Lines"), the 368 version is the Inverted outputs version.
IC8E is a Texas Instruments SN74LS368AN made in Malaysia, batch 921CR, the PC10 schematic says "LS368A", see IC 8F which is the same type
IC1L is a Texas Instruments SN74LS244N made in Malaysia, batch 803CS, the PC10 schematic says "LS244" (see IC 1K which is very similar in concept to IC 1L, LS244 is a non-inverting version)
IC2L is a Texas Instruments SN74LS139N made in Malaysia, batch 938XJ, the PC10 schematic says "LS139" (Dual 2-to-4 line decoder/demultiplexer)
Transistor Q11 is an A933, marked "S RY", the PC10 schematic says "A933"
Transistor Q14 is an A933, marked "S RY", the PC10 schematic says "A933"
Transistor Q17 is an A933, marked "S RY", the PC10 schematic says "A933"
IC3E is marked with a logo of 2 "~"'s, one above the other, whichever brand that is, and is an LM324N, batch M8930, the PC10 schematic says "LM324" (Low power, Quad i.e. four Operational Amplifiers)
IC2G is a Texas Instruments SN74S04N made in Malaysia, batch 921XJ, the PC10 schematic says "74S04" (Hex Inverter i.e. six inverters)
IC8G is a Texas Instruments SN74LS04N made in Malaysia, batch 913CS, the PC10 schematic says "LS04" (Hex Inverter i.e. six inverters)
Transistor Q8 is a C1740, marked "QW", the PC10 schematic says "C1740"
IC7E is a Texas Instruments SN74LS259BN, batch J941B5K, the PC10 schematic says "LS259" (8-Bit Addressable Latches, i.e. 8-bit Parallel-Output Storage Register performs Serial-to-Parallel conversion with Storage. Uses include working registers, serial-holding registers, active-high decoders or demultiplexers)
IC4K is marked with a logo of an "F" with a horizontal line on the top and bottom, I am guessing Fairchild Semiconductor, MB8416A-15-SK made in Japan, batch 8935 KT67, the PC10 schematic says "HM6116ASP-20" (Hitachi 16K (2048 x 8 bits) CMOS Static RAM)
IC5S is a Texas Instruments SN74LS368AN made in Malaysia, batch 921CR, the PC10 schematic says "LS368A" (see IC 8F which is the same type)
IC3M is a Texas Instruments SN74LS244N made in Malaysia, batch 803CS, the PC10 schematic says "LS244" (see IC 1K which is very similar in concept to IC 3M, LS244 is a non-inverting version)
IC3K is a Toshiba TC74HC373AP made in Japan, batch 8945H, the PC10 schematic says "TC74HC373" (i.e Octal i.e. eight D-Type Latches with 3-State Outputs http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/214632/TOSHIBA/TC74HC373AP_07.html (http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/214632/TOSHIBA/TC74HC373AP_07.html)
IC4L is a Texas Instruments SN74LS367AN, batch J908C5K, the PC10 schematic says "LS367A" (see IC 8F, which is the same type BUT LS367 is the True outputs version (LS 368 is Inverted outputs) http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/27433/TI/SN74LS367AN.html (http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/27433/TI/SN74LS367AN.html)
NOTES ;-
1) In the above, a line after the label means INVERTED
2) There is an LS245 (sitting between CPU and WRAM) acting as a Bus Tranceiver (Bi-directional Eight-Bit Buffer). The DIR (output control pin) of the LS245 is being controlled by the R/W_ signal (which is inverted, hence the need for the use of one of the six inverters inside IC 3G. The NES does NOT have an LS245, instead on the NES D0 through D7 go direct to WRAM
3) PPU pins 10,11,12 (RS2,1,0) on PC10 go direct to 2A03E CPU pins 6,5,4 (PRG A02, PRG A01, PRG A00) and to Work RAM pins 6,7,8, and to pins 15,2,17 of IC1L (3-state Bus Tranceiver), then through IC1L and out via pins 5,18,3 of 1L and to pins 25, 24, 23 of PC10 ROM cart connector.
NES is similar in that pins 10,11,12 of PPU (RS2,1,0) go direct to pins 6,5,4 of 2A03E CPU (PRG A02, PRG A01, PRG A00) and to pins 6,7,8 of Work RAM, and to pins 11,12,13 of cart slot, ** BUT ** the PC10 puts these 3 pins through IC 1L (3-state Bus Tranceiver), and pins
1 and 19 (Enable A, Enable B) are both connected to ground (there are circles on pins 1 and 19 on the LS244 on the PC10 schematic, maybe this indicates "inverted"?). IC 1L is a Texas Instruments SN74LS244N and is a non-inverting version according to the datasheet.
4) PPU pin 25 (PA13) on PC10 goes direct to pin 10 of IC 5S (74LS368AN, Hex i.e. Six bus drivers, the 368 version is the Inverted outputs version) then out of pin 9 of IC 5S and into B12 of PC10 ROM cart socket labelled as PA13 (inverted) (i.e. IC 5S on the schematic is acting as an inverter) and also from PPU pin 25 direct to pin 6 of IC 3M (LS 244, Bus Tranceiver with the pin 1 i.e. data flow DIRection control pin grounded, so the bus transceiver is apparently locked into one state out of it's 3 available states of data flow i.e. A to B, or B to A, or isolate B from A) then out of pin 14 of IC 3M then into PA13 i.e. A18 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
uhh, what's wrong? All my games run problem free on my rgb systems except for stuff like felix the cat that uses some sort of special feature that the rgb ppu doesn't do for some reason.
You're getting 1 row of pixels that're an off colour? ....who cares? I never noticed that in mario 2 but in some games I get 1 horizontal row of pixels that're just like random colours...but it's just 1 row of pixels so whatever.
I think a good example is the title screen of kick master gives me 1 row of trippy random pixels. It's just 1 row of pixels, and it's only during the title screen, I don't lose any sleep over this.
You can put all the capacitors you want on the sync line it won't break anything unless maybe you wire it into voltage. I don't even have the sync go through the nes video amp. I got sync going just by adding any sized cap between the ppu and my s-video encoder. No amping was needed....but this is a rgb to s-video encoder not a rgb tv. I don't have a rgb capable tv I just encode the rgb into s-video or component.
The kit I use has the sync go through a lm1881n and then into a cxa1645.....again there's no amping going on with the sync on these kits it just feeds into the cxa encoder after the lm1881 cleans it up
I've played through mario 2 (mario usa) many times on the rgb system and never noticed anything like what you got. The game runs on my system just like the composite ppu....but super sharp and with a slightly different/more vibrant pallette.
also for anyone interested I rgb modded a sharp twin famicom today and the video is just as clean as my jailbar free toaster. FDS games run fine on the rgb twin famicom too. I even swapped out the chip that makes the powerpak run wtih the rgb mod
If it turns out these few remaining glitches and the jailbars are related that would be a great thing to fix but as-is probably not so much. Megaman 2 has some really ugly graphical garbage in the underwater section of the Bubbleman stage that is quite a bit worse than that flickering blue rectangle in SMB2.
My sync line is lifted and bypasses the internal hardware of the NES as well and I still get that blue rectangle among other things so it's got nothing to do with board components after pin 21.
I mucked around more with my rgb modded twin famicom. I tried kick master on the rgb av famicom, sorry it isn't an entire horizontal row of pixels that're random it was just a short horizontal row on the right side. But on my twin I didn't seem to get this row of pixels. So I guess random rows of funky pixels are just caused by your pcb revision. It seems different pcb types give different odd rows of pixels from the rgb ppu. Once again I don't really care because it was literally just 1 row of pixels. My megaman 2 has the fun waterman stage weirdness. It like glitches 1 tile for just 1 frame of animation every once in a while. I doubt there's any fix for this. I even played some megaman 2 hacks on my powerpak and the underwater stages had the same problem so something about the programming the rgb ppu doesn't like.
Also the twin famicom is very jailbar free when rgb modded. It's not as clean as the av famicom but it's very very close. It has just as good quality video as my nes-cpu-06 toaster which is also just a little bit worse than my av famicom in terms of video quality.
Not sure if I mentioned this before but some rgb chips have less jailbars than others. These chips have no special markings on them and they came from the exact same type of pcbs that my more-jailbar chips came from. I use a combination of one of these less-jailbar chips and my revision 2 av famicom and on s-video on my tv I get jailbars on nothing at all.
Quote from: Salamander on August 30, 2011, 12:24:39 AM
Makes perfect sense now why the background in stage 2 of Castlevania changes from red to a shade of purple. Again though, I'd point out you can fix most of the oversaturation just by adding pots. In my experience blue is really the main offender and dialing just that line back a little bit can make all the difference.
Hi, as I wanted my NES to have similar RGB adjustment pots as yours I have ordered some Ebay item no. 250840471456, i.e. "2 x 500 OHM Linear Taper Potentiometer Pot B500" from seller tayda2009. Couldn't find any smaller value than 500 Ohms! The brand is Alpha, I have had some of these type / brand from this seller before when I ordered a 10K dual pot (log = A, I should have fitted 10K linear = B, I have some of those also from same seller, actually I just ordered a 500 Ohm dual linear one from the same seller as I think it will be better suited) for my NES stereo audio mod. They fit the Maplin part that I bought just great ;- http://www.maplin.co.uk/soft-touch-knobs-19412 (http://www.maplin.co.uk/soft-touch-knobs-19412) for the adjustment side of things, and look nice as well. I only got the red one (for the audio mixing) but next I'll grab another red and also blue and green. The top of the pot is a 6mm splined split shaft BTW and you can fit any standard knob to it.
I checked the PCB of the PC10 and it also uses 500 Ohm pots on the R,G,B lines.
But instead of altering the pots to change the palette, I will only maybe use the pots to make sure that the output of my RGB NES is suited to the particular display I am using (some have a red bias, etc). If I want the Composite palette with RGB quality, I will get the RC2C05-04 and use the Baku style mod (if it turns out to have the NES palette in it which some say it does).
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Quote from: Drakon on August 31, 2011, 03:07:39 PM
uhh, what's wrong? All my games run problem free on my rgb systems except for stuff like felix the cat that uses some sort of special feature that the rgb ppu doesn't do for some reason.
You're getting 1 row of pixels that're an off colour? ....who cares?
Hi Drakon, great to talk to you again, I'm actually getting 2 flashing blue short vertical lines (maybe just over 1/2" long on my 14" TV) in the last column of pixels (on the right) as a problem and I care because it's permanently there on SMB2 (but not on SMB1, and I don't have any other games or Powerpak to test due to personal circumstances restricting my buying power LOL).
> I never noticed that in mario 2
Ahh interesting, and you're using different revision NTSC USA NES's (6,10,11, so far) than mine (4) and you have a cap (220uF I think you said) on your sync line but no sync amp and not going through the NES for Sync, and an RGB to S-Video converter and amp on your S-Video line. So the 2 differences from my set up are the cap on the Sync and the revision of NES. That's my understanding of it anyway. And I see that you can see all lines 0 to 255 of your PPU output on your HDTV. So if there was any glitch in SMB2 you'd have seen it. Funny how you get no glitch and I do.
>but in some games I get 1 horizontal row of pixels that're just like random colours...but it's just 1 row of pixels so whatever.
Is that after the 68 or 120 pF cap fix on your RP2C03B, or before it? I used to get horizontal lines sometimes in SMB1 on my Composite output of this NES (white-black-white line maybe 1.5" long, lasting a tiny fraction of a second, only in certain places and even then very difficult to reproduce, I posted a Youtube video showing it in this topic a while back) and I was seeing horiztontal blue lines in a similar vein on the underground sections of SMB1 before I did the 68pF cap mod to my RP2C03B and now I don't see them anymore ever.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Quote from: Salamander on September 01, 2011, 02:39:03 AM
If it turns out these few remaining glitches and the jailbars are related that would be a great thing to fix
I don't think they are related at all. EDIT : Whoops I may be wrong, see later.
> Megaman 2 has some really ugly graphical garbage in the underwater section of the Bubbleman stage that is quite a bit worse than that flickering blue rectangle in SMB2.
Have you already done the 68 / 120 pF cap mod to your NES? BTW I get a short blue line, not rectangle on SMB2.
>My sync line is lifted and bypasses the internal hardware of the NES as well and I still get that blue rectangle among other things so it's got nothing to do with board components after pin 21.
Do you happen to know if you have a cap' anywhere in your Sync line?
Cheers,
ARG
Quote from: Drakon on September 01, 2011, 02:20:26 PM
I mucked around more with my rgb modded twin famicom. I tried kick master on the rgb av famicom, sorry it isn't an entire horizontal row of pixels that're random it was just a short horizontal row on the right side. But on my twin I didn't seem to get this row of pixels. So I guess random rows of funky pixels are just caused by your pcb revision. It seems different pcb types give different odd rows of pixels from the rgb ppu.
I think you might very well have a good point there, it does seem to depend on your NES revision.
I say this because I just put a 220uF cap on the amplified Composite Sync just before it hits pin 20 of my SCART plug, my NES is using the RF box for amping the Sync, and with the new cap it did NOT remove these darned glitches. Curses. All it did was make my jail bars suddenly visible when they weren't there before, so that I now needed to turn my TV down more, this time to 50 percent brightness, to make them go away on the black start screen of SMB2.
As well as increasing the jail bars significantly, I also got the 2 vertical short blue lines on the right in the last column of pixels flashing at me a lot more prevalently in SMB2. This sucked LOL. They were still there in the World section 1 as well. No change on SMB1.
Either the strength of the cap might make a difference maybe or maybe I have to add a cap before the sync gets amplified instead, or I am just wasting my time and it's the revision of my NES and I can't get rid of it (which is what I strongly suspect) without altering one or more IC's on my PCB. It may well be that the PC10 is using slightly different IC's to the ones on my PCB (I posted pictures of both a while back on here) and so tomorrow I will go through the PC10 schematic and compare the IC's to the ones on my Rev. 4 NES and report back if anything is different. I don't want to change the Toshiba TC74HC373P (Japan, batch 8643H) as it would make my NES incompatible with the Powerpak according to what I read LOL.
> My megaman 2 has the fun waterman stage weirdness. It like glitches 1 tile for just 1 frame of animation every once in a while. I doubt there's any fix for this.
Ahh so you get the glitch that Salamander gets, or a similar one at least, and that's after the cap was added from pin 20 to 24 of the PPU.
>I even played some megaman 2 hacks on my powerpak and the underwater stages had the same problem so something about the programming the rgb ppu doesn't like.
So there is no revision of NES / Famicom / anything else that can ever give a totally glitch free RGB mod?! Unless I use a different PPU like the RC2C05-99 (Titler) or RC2C03B that doesn't have these glitches we have with the RP2C03B?
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Here is a clue to where the problem lies with the PPU glitching... it's strongly related to the sprite vertical position :o
I noticed this in SMB2 ... as the blue character in this screen grab goes up and down, SO DOES THE BLUE VERTICAL LINE ON THE RIGHT THAT IS DIRECTLY IN LINE WITH AND AS TALL AS THE CHARACTER.
Also the blue line which is above this one stays fixed in position because it's related to the status of Mario (damage / life force bar must be a sprite!).
So it seems to be related to the particular IC's in the path between PPU and the memory etc., and hence therefore to Drakon's suggestion of the revision of your NES!
I was thinking that, just like the PowerPak has the issue with not liking the 74LS373, the Rp2C03B might take a dislike to some chip(s) we have in our NES that is/are different on the PC10 PCB.
Also, maybe the Jail Bars and glitches are related after all, since the glitches seem to be from sprite PPU working (address lines), and the jail bars are caused by address line interference so I read.
Would anyone with an RC2C03B (Markus) or RC2C05-04 (Baku) or RC2C05-99 (Titler) care to tell us if they have experienced any glitches in any NES games ? ;D
PS I tried adding the image here but it says something about being full. So Picassa it is.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/dXBc6VURwtV01UWUJgVjSJsL1cJbDsUCEqprHCeUogU?feat=directlink (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/dXBc6VURwtV01UWUJgVjSJsL1cJbDsUCEqprHCeUogU?feat=directlink)
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Xe2ALNii8PfLz9AY71mDC5sL1cJbDsUCEqprHCeUogU?feat=directlink (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Xe2ALNii8PfLz9AY71mDC5sL1cJbDsUCEqprHCeUogU?feat=directlink)
Cheers,
Alistair G.
BTW there are NES Schematics (but not original Nintendo ones, see page 1 of them) for comparing with the PlayChoice 10 ones linked to earlier, are at ;-
http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electronics/schemview.php?id=2405 (http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electronics/schemview.php?id=2405)
Cheers,
ARG
Probably not a wise thing to do to the one and only RGB NES I have on hand to mess around with but I did decide to tinker yesterday after reading the posts here. Grounding out the PPU data bus pins one at a time, specifically ALE and AD0 through AD7 leads me to believe this is where the problem may be. Obviously grounding any of these is going to produce graphical issues but ALE through AD2 in particular were interesting. It produced black bars a few pixels thick, evenly spaced, at roughly the same positions on the screen as the jailbars. Could be a good place to start looking?
(http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx199/slagmarble/DSCN0505.jpg)
(http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx199/slagmarble/DSCN0506.jpg)
I cleaned up the scans (I am grateful for them, thanks goes to Cyberspike for the original scans, but the quality sucked and was very much too low a resolution and they were dark and hard to see with little contrast) as best I could and here they are in a rather more visible form as a PDF ;-
http://www.prescotmes.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/NES_Schematics_by_Electronix_1992.pdf (http://www.prescotmes.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/NES_Schematics_by_Electronix_1992.pdf)
Cheers,
ARG
One thing I notice right off the bat with those schematics is that the LS367A present in the PC10 hardware doesn't exist in the NES. Instead it's a straight connection between U2 (74LS373/74HC373) and ALE (PPU pin 39). Quick pdf datasheet search says the missing IC is a buffer/line driver.
OK so my heatsinks arrived and I fitted them. Gives me peace of mind at least. Each one was an identical size and fits the RP2C03B just great.
There was an item code on the packet that showed it was from Deal Extreme ;-
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/aluminum-alloy-chipset-heatsinks-for-pc-memory-chips-8-hsk-set-15361 (http://www.dealextreme.com/p/aluminum-alloy-chipset-heatsinks-for-pc-memory-chips-8-hsk-set-15361)
The adhesive doesn't look like any thermal compound I am aware of (I know what the grey thermal pads look like on the PS2 for example), instead it looks just like thin servo tape (like from my RC models hobby). I cleaned the chip with Isopropyl Alcohol and I peeled the paper off the adhesive pads and stuck the heatsinks on, I used 3 of them to completely cover the chip (just about).
The adhesive is just like on servo tape (black glossy and extremely tacky, not like on the thermal pads in the PS2) so watch out and don't press them on just place them on until you are happy, otherwise repositioning is almost impossible. When you press them on they stick down very tenaciously and you can lift up the whole PCB by pulling up one heatsink. So I don't think that they will come off in the NES.
I am still a little worried about the heat and it being upside down on the "wrong" side of the board, in an unventilated small plastic box that is the NES, but there's little that I can do about that. I will now run the NES for many hours and check for lockups. No problems so far.
Pictures below to show the heatsinks and how far below the expansion port they come to. I can't tell whether the middle heatsink (the raised one on top of the die) is pressing against the plastic of the NES casing or not as I can't see it. I was hoping that I could see though the expansion port blanking plate but when I removed the big rectanglular lump of plastic off the bottom of the NES where the expansion port was (you just press in the sides and pull and the clips of it come off) there was still a small plate of plastic covering the port that could not be removed without cutting it off! And I can't see beyond it well enough to see the PPU properly. With the 3 heatsinks in place on my RP2C03B the NES PCB does seem to sit properly in the casing and allow the screws to be screwed in properly so I'm fairly happy with it now.
Note in the pictures how I have separated the middle heatsink from the left and right one so as to allow air to circulate fully between them.
http://picasaweb.google.com/LiveSteamMad/RGBNESHeatsinks (http://picasaweb.google.com/LiveSteamMad/RGBNESHeatsinks)
Cheers,
Alistair G.
@Live_Steam_Mad: The pots I used were 500 ohm linear on the color lines, the mixer is a 10k ohm dual gang linear. The manufacturer of the pot knobs I used is Re'an in case anyone wants to source those.
There is a 68pf cap in place on pin 24 it makes no difference to the other random glitching including SMB2.
There are no caps in my sync line, it goes through a THS7314 to the AD725 I used as an s-video encoder (oddly enough it will sync correctly with ~1.54 volts rather than 2 it asks for). Sync straight off the board with no components at all is also enough to run an RGB SCART to component transcoder without issue.
uhm. I didn't play mario 2 on a toaster I played it on the av famicom. My nes-cpu-06 toaster I can throw in a kit and see. Maybe later when I'm not feeling lazy
You really don't need a heatsink on the rgb ppu. I had a system running all day long when playing my final fantasy 3 marathon....nothing overheated.
awesome work salamander... I'm desoldering a ls367A chips from my army of playchoice pcbs and gonna wire it up and see what happens
@Drakon: I was going to order some myself to play with but Digikey doesn't have any more through hole in stock and the Ebay options seem silly when I just need one chip. Taking it straight from the original hardware is a good idea and if you want to test that would be great.
Couple things do bother me about the way that hand drawn schematic shows the layout. Only pins 1 through 7 are accounted for on what should be a 16 pin IC, the most important of which I'd think would be VCC (pin 16). The only ones actually connected according to this are 1 (ground), 2 (connects to PPU pin 39) and 6 (connects to 74HC373 pin 11).
About playing with the bus pins...interference varies somewhat pin to pin, some of them produce a ton of garbage. If you ground PPU pin 33 or pin 17 of the 74HC373 it's a near perfect overlap with the jailbars on the CV2 title. Here's what happens if you play around with ALE in SMB1, check out where the JB's are relative to the bands at the bottom.
(http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx199/slagmarble/DSCN0512.jpg)
Edit: Might be worth just tracing that IC on the arcade hardware. It looks like the LS367A interacts with the CPU on pins 31 and 32, the RAM on pin 21 as well as R/W and IRQ in the section blocked off and marked as the ROM connector.
I'm desoldering one right now. I have 8 playchoice pcbs. I'm just going to wire this chip to ground and voltage. And run the ale trace through it the way it's going through it on the playchoice. Using my probe to find what pins connect it. I'm ignoring the rest of the chips pins
*edit*
didn't work. It just makes the graphics go garbled when you wire the chip. Even garbled on the composite ppu
Schematic also shows some interaction between pins 9 and 10 of the IC and pin 31 of the CPU as well as 11 through 15 on R/W and IRQ between the ROM connector, the RAM and the CPU.
can I get the schematic you have? The one I have doesn't show where all the pins of the chip go
*edit*
Oh nevermind I see what you're talking about. Sheesh I wish this schematic had the chip pinout all in one place..
tomorrow I'll try wiring cpu pin 31 into pin 10 of the 367 chip.... pin 9 goes to a pin on a rom connector that is a different type of connection from the nes cart socket. And the other end of pin 9 goes into a bunch of parts I have no idea what they do
on a random note of discovery. On the original famicom schematic cpu pin 31 goes into a ls139 chip. The playchoice also has the ls139 chip. However it looks like the nes, nes 2, and av famicom don't use this chip.....and pin 31 of the cpu goes through a much different circuit (other stuff is really different too). Uhm...odd
*edit yet again* My sharp twin famicom also has this mysterious ls139 chip. But when I throw a rgb chip into the twin famicom I still get very mild jailbars. So whatever this chip is it has nothing to do with jailbars.
I'm also curious though....if grounding the address lines would work wouldn't the jailbars go away when you ground whichever line is causing them?
Because grounding produces interference in basically the exact spots it leads me to believe it really is a weak signal path issue. When you do ground the pins among other things it makes the jailbars as bad as they can possibly be, thicker solid black bars. Reading about what was done in the NES2 I got to wondering if a buffer/collector style amp might work as a bandaid on this...then discovering that chip actually does function as a buffer...sure seemed like the magic bullet.
Edit: The last ditch thing I'd try is direct off the board wiring between 74HC373 and the PPU. At present the data bus pins (ALE, AD0->AD7) have to pass under and between control bus signal pins. I really don't think the RAM is the culprit and from there it goes right to the cartridge connector.
PPU 74HC373
39 11
38 8
37 13
36 7
35 14
34 4
33 17
32 3
31 18
Edit2: And I do see what you mean, you'd figure by grounding them out eventually you'd find the one with the issue leaving clear video behind. It's possible that it's multiple lines or this is in the entirely wrong spot for the issue.
Edit3: Another possibility that occurred to me is that Nintendo was never able to fully resolve this issue in any revision. A combination of shortening the signal paths and adding that buffer/collector on the composite line was a cosmetic solution they made as well as could be made with the AV Famicom. Has anyone ever tried adding in a buffer/collector identical to what is used on the toploader composite mod in the color lines off the PPU? Even running a color line through the toaster hardware between pin 21 and the video out RCA connector would probably tell if it works or not.
well I wired up the cpu pin that goes through the 367 chip but that made no difference....oh well. Whatever causes this problem I doubt it's fixable. Best solution I found is keep trying rgb ppu chips until you find one that produces less jailbars and throw it into a revision 2 av famicom.
If the interference was caused by traces going under a chip wouldn't that be fixable just by adding wires between the chip and the pcb so the chip doesn't go near the traces?
Would probably require direct wiring and the interference doesn't annoy me enough to run with that haha. Had Nintendo not masked the AV Fami's board, you could just examine the traces there and see if that's something they figured out and changed already.
I found a higher resolution version of the NES Schematics by Electronix ;-
http://www.romhacking.net/docs/564/ (http://www.romhacking.net/docs/564/)
...but they were grey so I whitened them for my own clarity and PDF'ed them ;-
http://www.prescotmes.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/NES_Schematics_by_Electronix_1992_higher_res.pdf (http://www.prescotmes.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/NES_Schematics_by_Electronix_1992_higher_res.pdf)
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Forgot to mention, here are the Famicom Schematics ;-
http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=6950 (http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=6950)
http://atariusa.com/Famicom_Schematics/ (http://atariusa.com/Famicom_Schematics/)
The important ones are "FC Factory CPU Schematic Scan" and "FC PPU Schematic".
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Looks like DBE and CLK are flipped when comparing the NES and that FC schematic. Checked my toaster NES with a multimeter and that schematic is wrong...PPU pin 13 connects to U3 pin 5 and PPU pin 18 connects to a 51pf cap up at C45 so the hardware itself is fine. There are a couple ceramic caps in series 330p (C21) and 30p (C23) between the PPU in the FC schematic and U3 that aren't present in the NES one. The Playchoice schematic has both of these caps as optional and if memory serves not present.
ALE is a direct connection between the PPU and U2 this time in both. Interestingly enough the FC has the 68pf cap on PPU pin 24 to ground just like you'd see in the Playchoice.
Quote from: Salamander on September 04, 2011, 03:05:20 AM
Looks like DBE and CLK are flipped when comparing the NES and that FC schematic. Checked my toaster NES with a multimeter and that schematic is wrong...
*rant whine etc...*
the second nes schematic says copyright 1992 so it's probably for the nes 2 and not the toaster ;)
and yes the famicom design is much closer to the playchoice. I'm sure my twin famicom is the same thing as the famicom.
It's not the Toploader, I checked mine and PPU pin 13 goes to pin 5 on U3 just like it's supposed to. Best guess...since it's pin 13 and 18 someone just made a typo. Cap and resistor values up near Q2 are also quite a bit different on the Toploader hardware. Schematic for this if it exists would be really nice.
yeah I agree considering the top loader has less jailbars when rgb modded
Another thing I spotted this morning...
PPU pins 25-28 are handled fairly differently between the PC10, the toaster and the toploader.
-PC10 sends all 4 pins to an LS244 'noninverting buffer line driver/line receiver'
-Toaster sends PPU pin 25 to pin 5 of a 74HCU04P, the same hex inverter used for the audio, exiting on pin 6 then heading with the other 3 to the cartridge connector
-Toploader sends all 4 right to the cartridge connector with neither chip present
-Ditto the AV Famicom
Quote from: Salamander on September 05, 2011, 02:27:04 AM
Another thing I spotted this morning...
PPU pins 25-28 are handled fairly differently between the PC10, the toaster and the toploader.
-PC10 sends all 4 pins to an LS244 'noninverting buffer line driver/line receiver'
-Toaster sends PPU pin 25 to pin 5 of a 74HCU04P, the same hex inverter used for the audio, exiting on pin 6 then heading with the other 3 to the cartridge connector
-Toploader sends all 4 right to the cartridge connector with neither chip present
-Ditto the AV Famicom
Just to clarify that 2nd point above ;-
My Toaster NES R4 has pin 25 PPU (PA13) going direct to pin 65 of NES cart slot ("CHR A13" on the NES section of Ben Heck's NES / Famicom cart slot pinout) and to pin 5 of U9 (TC74HCU04P, hex inverter).
Pin 6 of U9 (six inverters) on my NES goes to pin 58 of NES cart slot (CHR A13 inverted, note that there are two CHR A13's on the NES cart slot, one is CHR A13 (pin 65), the second is this one (CHR A13 inverted).
The Famicom also has CHR A13 inverted, on pin 49 of the Famicom cart slot. In a similar way to the NES, PPU pin 25 (CHR A13) goes direct to pin 12 of U7 (40H368, contains 2 inverters in the Famicom schematic) and gets inverted in U7 onto pin 11 of U7, then goes to pin 49. So U7 in Famicom is doing the job that U9 does in the Toaster NES, for CHR A13.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Quote from: Live_Steam_Mad on September 05, 2011, 07:25:35 AM
CHR A13 inverted
Right you are, I swear my eyes were going to cross from looking at this stuff so long. I'm out of ideas on this one really and even went so far as to socket the 74HC373 for further experimentation but still couldn't clear those pesky JBs.
OK so I traced all the connections on the PPU of my Rev. 4 NTSC USA Toaster NES and I got ;-
PPU ;-
pin 1 is R/W_, goes direct to pin 34 of 2A03 CPU and pin 21 of IC U1 (2K x 8 bits SRAM / Work RAM) and pin 14 of NES cart slot
pin 2 is D0, goes direct to pin 32 of Expansion port (CPU D0) and pin 49 of NES cart slot (PRG D0) and pin 3 of IC U7 and pin 3 of IC U8 and pin 28 of 2A03 CPU and pin 9 of IC WRAM (U1)
pin 3 is D1, goes direct to pin 31 of Expansion port (CPU D1) and pin 48 of NES cart slot (PRG D1) and pin 5 of IC U7 and pin 5 of IC U8 and pin 27 of 2A03 CPU and pin 10 of IC WRAM (U1)
pin 4 is D2, goes direct to pin 30 of Expansion port (CPU D2) and pin 47 of NES cart slot (PRG D2) and pin 9 of IC U7 and pin 9 of IC U8 and pin 26 of 2A03 CPU and pin 11 of IC WRAM (U1)
pin 5 is D3, goes direct to pin 29 of Expansion port (CPU D3) and pin 46 of NES cart slot (PRG D3) and pin 11 of IC U7 and pin 11 of IC U8 and pin 25 of 2A03 CPU and pin 13 of IC WRAM (U1)
pin 6 is D4, goes direct to pin 28 of Expansion port (CPU D4) and pin 45 of NES cart slot (PRG D4) and pin 13 of IC U7 and pin 13 of IC U8 and pin 24 of 2A03 CPU and pin 14 of IC WRAM (U1)
pin 7 is D5, goes direct to pin 27 of Expansion port (CPU D5) and pin 44 of NES cart slot (PRG D5) and pin 23 of 2A03 CPU and pin 15 of IC WRAM (U1)
pin 8 is D6, goes direct to pin 26 of Expansion port (CPU D6) and pin 43 of NES cart slot (PRG D6) and and pin 22 of 2A03 CPU and pin 16 of IC WRAM (U1)
pin 9 is D7, goes direct to pin 25 of Expansion port (CPU D7) and pin 42 of NES cart slot (PRG D7) and pin 21 of 2A03 CPU and pin 17 of IC WRAM (U1)
pin 10 is RS2, goes direct to pin 11 of NES cart slot (PRG A02) and pin 6 of 2A03 CPU and pin 6 of IC WRAM (U1)
pin 11 is RS1, goes direct to pin 12 of NES cart slot (PRG A01) and pin 5 of 2A03 CPU and pin 7 of IC WRAM (U1)
pin 12 is RS0, goes direct to pin 13 of NES cart slot (PRG A00) and pin 4 of 2A03 CPU and pin 8 of IC WRAM (U1)
pin 13 is DBE_, goes direct to pin 5 of U3 (74HC139P, Dual 2-to-4 line decoder/demultiplexer)
pin 14 is RED, goes to my Moosmann amp #1
pin 15 is BLUE, goes to my Moosmann amp #2
pin 16 is GREEN, goes to my Moosmann amp #3
pin 17 is MVGND and goes direct to Ground of NES PCB
pin 18 is CLK (PPUCLK), goes through C45 (51pF cap) and then though 220K ohms (R10) to the Base of Q2 and then through C43 (51pF cap) to ground, etc (i.e. from pin 18 of PPU then through the middle left section of "NES3" on the schematic)
pin 19 is NMI_, goes direct to pin 33 of 2A03 CPU and to pin 4 of Expansion port
pin 20 is Ground, goes direct to Ground on NES PCB
pin 21 is Composite Sync and goes direct to the Base of transistor Q1 (A397), the Collector is Grounded, and the Emitter goes direct to pin 21 of Expansion port. Also there is a direct connection from Emitter of Q1 to R2 (150 Ohms) (on the NES Schematic it is shown as 510 Ohms instead), then through R2 to VCC (pin 36 NES cart slot), and also a direct connection from Emitter of Q1 to FC2 (Ferrite Core/Choke), then through FC2, and then through C5 (330pF) to Ground of NES PCB. From Emitter of Q1 there is a direct connection to pin 1 of the 5 pins that goes into the RF box.
pin 22 is RST_, goes to pin 3 of 2A03 CPU, and pin 9 of U9, and pin 9 of U10
pin 23 is WE_ (CHR RAM WR_), goes direct to pin 56 of NES cart slot, and pin 21 of VRAM (U4). Electronix schematic is wrong (see below)
pin 24 is RD_ (CHR RAM RD_), goes direct to pin 21 NES cart slot, and pin 20 VRAM (U4). I added a 68pF cap from pin 24 PPU to Ground, to be the same as the PC10 (and Famicom!) schematic
pin 25 is PA13, goes direct to pin 65 of NES cart slot ("CHR A13" on the NES section of Ben Heck's NES / Famicom cart slot pinout) and to pin 5 of U9 and to the middle pin of RA2 (Resistor Array 2) then through 5.2K Ohms of RA2 to middle left pin of RA2 then to pin 36 of 2A03 CPU, also from middle pin of RA2 then through 9.7K Ohms of RA2 to far left hand pin of RA2 then to pin 35 of 2A03 CPU, also from middle pin of RA2 then through 7.6K Ohms of RA2 to middle right pin of RA2 then to pin 39 of 2A03 CPU, also from middle pin of RA2 then through 5.4K Ohms of RA2 to far right pin of RA2 then to pin 40 of 2A03 CPU and to VCC (pin 36 of NES cart slot)
pin 26 is PA12 (CHR A12), goes direct to pin 64 of NES cart slot
pin 27 is PA11 (CHR A11), goes direct to pin 62 of NES cart slot
pin 28 is PA10 (CHR A10), goes direct to pin 63 of NES cart slot
pin 29 is PA9 (CHR A09), goes direct to pin 61 of NES cart slot and pin 22 of VRAM (U4)
pin 30 is PA8 (CHR A08), goes direct to pin 60 of NES cart slot and pin 23 of VRAM (U4)
pin 31 is AD7 (CHR D7), goes direct to pin 18 of U2 (Toshiba TC74HC373P, Non-inverting Octal D-type Latch) then out of pin 19 of U2 (O8, output no. 8) then to pin 1 of VRAM (A7) and to CHR A07 i.e. pin 59 of NES cart slot. Also PPU pin 31 goes direct to AD7 and pin 17 of VRAM (U4) and CHR D7 i.e. pin 66 of NES cart slot
pin 32 is AD6 (CHR D6), goes direct to pin 3 of U2 (Toshiba TC74HC373P, Non-inverting Octal D-type Latch) then out of pin 2 of U2 (O1, output no. 1) then to pin 2 of VRAM (A6) and to CHR A06 i.e. pin 23 of NES cart slot. Also PPU pin 32 goes direct to AD6 i.e. pin 16 of VRAM (U4) and CHR D6 i.e. pin 67 of NES cart slot
pin 33 is AD5 (CHR D5), goes direct to pin 17 of U2 (Toshiba TC74HC373P, Non-inverting Octal i.e. Eight D-type Latches) then out of pin 16 of U2 (O7, output no. 7) then to pin 3 of VRAM (A5) and to CHR A05 i.e. pin 24 of NES cart slot. Also PPU pin 33 goes direct to AD5 i.e. pin 15 of VRAM (U4) and CHR D5 i.e. pin 68 of NES cart slot.
pin 34 is AD4 (CHR D4), goes direct to pin 4 of U2 (Toshiba TC74HC373P, Non-inverting Octal i.e. Eight D-type Latches) then 0ut of pin 5 of U2 (O2, output no. 2) then to pin 4 of VRAM (A4) and to CHR A04 i.e. pin 25 of NES cart slot. Also PPU pin 34 goes direct to AD4 i.e. pin 14 of VRAM (U4) and CHR D4 i.e. pin 69 of NES cart slot.
pin 35 is AD3 (CHR D3), goes direct to pin 14 of U2 (Toshiba TC74HC373P, Non-inverting Octal i.e. Eight D-type Latches) then out of pin 15 of U2 (O6, output no. 6) then to pin 5 of VRAM (A3) and to CHR A03 i.e. pin 26 of NES cart slot. Also PPU pin 35 goes direct to AD3 i.e. pin 13 of VRAM (U4) and CHR D3 i.e. pin 33 of NES cart slot.
pin 36 is AD2 (CHR D2), goes direct to pin 7 of U2 (Toshiba TC74HC373P, Non-inverting Octal i.e. Eight D-type Latches) then out of pin 6 of U2 (O3, output no. 3) then to pin 6 of VRAM (A2) and to CHR A02 i.e. pin 27 of NES cart slot. Also PPU pin 36 goes direct to AD2 i.e. pin 11 of VRAM (U4) and CHR D2 i.e. pin 32 of NES cart slot.
pin 37 is AD1 (CHR D1), goes direct to pin 13 of U2 (Toshiba TC74HC373P, Non-inverting Octal i.e Eight D-type Latches) then out of pin 12 of U2 (O5, output no. 5) then to pin 7 of VRAM (A1) and to CHR A01 i.e. pin 28 of NES cart slot. Also PPU pin 37 goes direct to AD1 i.e. pin 10 of VRAM (U4) and CHR D1 i.e. pin 31 of NES cart slot.
pin 38 is AD0 (CHR D0), goes direct to pin 8 of U2 (Toshiba TC74HC373P, Non-inverting Octal i.e. Eight D-type Latches) then out of pin 9 of U2 (O4, output no. 4) then to pin 8 of VRAM (A0) and to CHR A00 i.e. pin 29 of NES cart slot. Also PPU pin 38 goes direct to AD0 i.e. pin 9 of VRAM (U4) and CHR D0 i.e. pin 30 of NES cart slot.
pin 39 is ALE, goes direct to pin 11 of U2
pin 40 is VCC, goes direct to pin 36 of NES cart slot
My CPU is RP2A03E, batch 6K2 B1
IC U1 is a TMM2115BP-15 (2K x 8 bits SRAM 150ns/ Work RAM)
IC U2 is a Toshiba TC74HC373P (Non-inverting Octal D-type Latch with 3-State output, see http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Databooks-4/Book609-949.pdf (http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Databooks-4/Book609-949.pdf) )
IC U3 is a Toshiba TC74HC139P (Dual 2-to-4 line decoder/demultiplexer)
IC U4 is a TMM2115BP-15 (2K x 8 bits SRAM 150ns/ Video RAM)
IC U7 and U8 are both a Toshiba TC40H368P ("Hex bus drivers with 3-state outputs", or "Buffer Memory Address Registers", also called "Hex Buffers" and "Line Drivers", or "Drive Bus Lines"), the 368 version is the Inverted outputs version. D0 through D4 come out of U7's inverted outputs, and D0 through D4 also come out of U8's inverted outputs
U9 is a Toshiba TC74HCU0P (Hex Inverter)
U10 is the CIC Lockout Chip 3193A, batch 8644 A, copyright 1986 Nintendo, I have cut off pin 4 of this chip from the body of the chip
Q1 is an A937 transistor
Q2 is a C2021 transistor
NOTES:
1) My factory fitted PPU in this NES was RP2C02E-0, batch 6K3 43. I removed this and fitted a socket and added an RP2C03B, came from my PC10 PCB's. I used Moosmann's RGB mod.
2) In the above, a line after the label means INVERTED
3) The first 5 data bus lines i.e. D0 to D4 are all coming out of a TC40H368P hex inverter, but D5 to D7 are not!!!
4) As Salamander mentions, it would appear that either my NES Rev.4 does not follow this NES schematic, or that there is an error in the Electronix NES schematic, because DBE is shown as going through a 51pF cap and then to E of Q3, as well as through 510R to ground, and etc (through the middle left section of "NES3" on the schematic), whereas my NES DOES NOT. My NES follows the Famicom schematics instead, in that DBE (pin 13 of PPU) goes direct to pin 5 of U3, and it is instead PPU pin 18 (CLK) that goes direct to the C45 (51pF cap) and through the rest of the components aforementioned.
5) Also it shows on the Electronix NES schematic that a pin of U3 (not numbered!) connects to pin 18 of PPU (CLK). On my NES pin 18 of PPU (CLK) doesn't connect to ANY pin of my U3!
6) On the Electronix schematic, the C2021 transistor to the right of the 21.47727 Crystal (Q2) has it's Collector going through 510 Ohms to VCC. On my NES, this is instead a 1.2KOhms resistor, R11 (connecting to pin 36 of NES cart slot, i.e. VCC). Also the schematic shows Q3's Emitter going though 510R to ground, but my NES has it going through R12 (1.2KOhms) instead.
7) My NES has the 30pF (the one in parallel with the 18pF cap connected to the X'TAL) as a Variable capacitor (it's got an adjustment that you can do with a small cross point screwdriver), the NES schematic shows this as just a normal 30pF cap, so my NES follows the Famicom schematic in this case.
8 ) On the Electronix schematic, I don't know what the hell they are trying to show on "WR" pin of PPU, but it can't be pin 21 as shown, since 21 is Composite Video. They must mean WR = Write = Write Enable, which instead should be on PPU pin 23 (so it's a typo, should have been "23" and seeing as it's next to pin 24 I assumed they meant it to be in numerical order), should be going to 21 of VRAM (U4) (i.e. should connect two lines lower down!). Instead it's shown going to pin 19 of VRAM (VRAM CHR A10), and this doesn't even connect to the PPU! (note in the above that pin 28 is CHR A10 but is NOT the same as VRAM CHR A10, which goes to pin 22 of NES cart slot). There should NOT be a connection from pin 19 VRAM to PPU pin 23! Pins 26, 27, 28 of PPU (PA12, PA11, PA10) are not even shown on the PPU pinout!
9) Expansion port pin 21 is connected to Emitter of Q1 (A397) i.e. VIDEO (since Q1's base connects to pin 21 of PPU i.e. Composite Video, and Audio is on pin 22 of Expansion port, since it connects with very low resistance to pin 2 of the 5 pins where I am taking internal mono audio from for my stereo audio mod. So this is basically the reverse of the pinout on the NESDev Wiki for NES (Expansion port pinout webpage) where they have pin 21 Expansion port as audio and pin 22 as Video, i.e. NESDev has them swapped on that webpage of theirs. I have reported this on the NesDev forums, maybe a moderator will correct it.
10) On the Famicom schematic, it uses 2 resistors (R6 2.2K, R12 220R) instead of just the one (R2, 150R) on my NES, for the Composite Video section, in the part which goes from Emitter of Q1 to VCC. On the Famicom, the Video output is taken from between these two resistors. The "diagonal rectangle" immediately to the right of the 2SA937 transistor in the NES schematic is FC2. From Emitter of Q1 there is a direct connection to pin 1 of the 5 pins that goes into the RF box, and pin 2 is internal mono audio and pin 3 is VCC (none are ground, the RF casing itself is ground).
11) It seems that there is another mistake in the Electronic NES Schematic in that A0, A1, A2 are shown as PPU pins (not numbered!) and are infact instead CHR A12, CHR A11, CHR A10 respectively, PPU pins 26, 28, 27 on NES cart pins 64, 62, 63, and called PA12, PA10, PA11 in the Famicom schematics. AS well as this, if you compare NES and Famicom cart slots, Famicom has pins 53, 54, 55 as CHR A10, CHR A11, CHR A12, whereas NES has them on 62, 63, 64 and they are CHR A11, CHR A10, CHR A12 on the NES as the NES swaps the former 2 pins (CHR A10, CHR A11) around compared to the Famicom cart connector, but this latter part is true and not a mistake in the schematic.
12) PPU Pin 24 RD (CHR RAM RD) goes through 68pF to Ground on Famicom Schematic, just like on the PlayChoice 10. On my NES it didn't, so I added it when I did the NES RGB mod.
13) On the Electronix NES schematic, PPU pin 25 (PA13) is showing as connecting to pin 37 (CHR ROM OUTPUT ENABLE as it is labelled, but labelled as CLOCK on the NES DEV Wiki's 72 pin slot pinout) and going through C44 (220pF cap) to pin 29 of 2A03 CPU, and to the section on the middle left in Electronix NES schematic's "NES 3" section (clock components). This is another mistake as on my NES there is no electrical connection between PPU pin 25 and NES cart slot pin 37. Instead, pin 25 of PPU is connected to pin 65 of NES cart slot (CHR A13). The Famicom schematic shows a connection from PPU pin 25 to pin 12 of U7 (40H368) but on my NES PPU pin 25 does not connect to ANY pin on either U7 or U8 of my NES!
14) Pin 6 of U9 (TC74HCU04P, hex inverter) on my NES goes to pin 58 of NES cart slot (CHR A13 inverted, note that there are two CHR A13's on the NES cart slot, one is CHR A13 (pin 65) (connected to pin 25 of PPU), the second is this one (CHR A13 inverted). The Famicom also has CHR A13 inverted, on pin 49 of the Famicom cart slot. In a similar way to the NES, PPU pin 25 (CHR A13) goes direct to pin 12 of U7 (40H368, contains 2 inverters in the Famicom schematic) and gets inverted in U7 onto pin 11 of U7, then goes to pin 49. So U7 in Famicom is doing the job that U9 does in the Toaster NES, for CHR A13
15) Pin 40 of PPU (VCC) is not shown on the Electronix NES schematic of the PPU!
16) On my RGB NES I am instead using pin 21 of PPU as Composite Sync (same as PC10 of course) instead of Composite Video, but that's the only change from a normal Toaster NES for this PPU pin. I am still routing the Composite Sync through the RF box to amplify it, in exactly the same way that the Toaster NES does with it's Composite Video, I am using exactly the same circuit, then out to Composite Video pin on SCART, as my TV in RGB mode still uses Composite Video to get it's Sync signal from, as do most TV's apparently.
17) A few times whilst testing I noticed that there was more Ohms (e.g. 15!) than there should have been between a few pins on the 72 pin connector and the PCB, so I pulled it out a little and back in and the connection was then back to being good. Morale of the story, get a toploader !!
18) Two more important links for cross referencing the Famicom and NES schematics by the cart slot connections are ;- http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/NES_expansion_port_pinout (http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/NES_expansion_port_pinout) and http://benheck.com/Downloads/NES_Famicom_Pinouts.pdf (http://benheck.com/Downloads/NES_Famicom_Pinouts.pdf)
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Desoldered the RF box today to test if the issue is supply voltage, the regulator or possibly internal caps there. Ran voltage and ground from an external hard drive enclosure but got no change in JBs.
OK starting to go through the schematics for the NES / Famicom and comparing where they differ to the PC10, and starting with pin 1 of PPU, PC10 has an IC 3G (Hex Inverter) and NES does not. But this is to be expected and can't be causing the glitching. It is there because there is an LS245 (sitting between CPU and WRAM) acting as a Bus Tranceiver (Bi-directional Eight-Bit Buffer). The DIR (output control pin) of the LS245 is being controlled by the R/W_ signal (Read / Write) which goes through IC 3G (which is inverted, hence the need for the use of one of the six inverters inside IC 3G to drive the DIR signal on IC 3G).
So when I get to pins 2 to 9 (D0 through D7) of the PC10 PPU I see that there is the aforementioned LS245 sitting between PPU and CPU, also this same LS245 is also sitting between CPU and WRAM (however, PPU pins 2 to 9 to WRAM are direct)
The NES does NOT have an LS245, instead on the NES PPU pins 2 to 9 (D0 through D7) go direct to WRAM and also go direct from PPU to CPU, and also go direct from CPU to WRAM. The Famicom is the same.
Apparently the function of the LS245 is normally to interconnect two buses and, depending on the DIR-pin, either transmits data from bus A to B or B to A. In this case, however, there are 3 busses that it is connecting! So I read, "74LS245, like most bus-oriented chips, has tri-state drivers, and in the third, high-impedance state, the driver is effectively disconnected, allowing other drivers to use the bus. If you just connected the busses, you could have only one data source".
Meaning (I assume) that DIR (which stands for DIRection of data flow I suspect) activates a kind of arbitration and allows either CPU to read / write to / from Work RAM, or PPU to do so, BUT not at the same time? I think this is like with the Commodore Amiga A500 with only ChipRam (VRAM) and no Fast RAM (CPU bus only ram), when the custom chip Agnus arbitrates between letting the either the CPU have access to ChipRAM (program subroutines execute) or the Blitter (BLock Image Transfer chip) gets access to ChipRAM(VRAM) (huge sprite moves around the screen but CPU is held off and can't execute for a while).
But why does the NES or Famicom not need this LS245 chip and the PC10 does?!
Is there any chance that this missing buffer chip is causing the glitches when this same PC10 PPU is used in my R4 NES? I suppose I could try wiring up my NES the same as the PC10 in this respect an see what happens (if it's possible?)! This would be my first suggestion so far.
To do this however would mean me having to socket my CPU (using the same precision socket as I used for my PPU) and cut off the ends of CPU socket pins 28 though 21 (D0 through D7) and solder eight wires onto them and put tape over the NES PCB pins and lead the wires out to a Veroboard / Stripboard (same as my Moosmann amp is using) and to pins 2 though 9 on an LS245 mounted there, and also then wire pins 18 through 11 of this same LS245 back from the Veroboard to the solder side (not component side) of the NES PCB to the CPU solder holes on pins 28 though 21.
Also however it is more complex than that, as the input to the WRAM (WE) also has to be inverted (as I think the PC10 schematic is showing?) before it enters on pin 21 of the WRAM (but I don't fully understand how this is achieved as it shows no inverter for this on the PC10 schematic, only a circle next to WE on the WRAM which I assume means this connection needs an inverter), and you have to have an inverter for the DIR input of the LS245 i.e. you are going to need to add a hex inverter (just like in PC10 IC 3G) to the Veroboard as well, and there are also a concatenation of 3 inverters chained together, output to input (IC 3G, pins 1,2,3,4,5,6) which I don't understand the purpose of, and 2 caps needed (PC10 C40 & C41) and an input to pin 1 of the hex inverter from a place on the PC10 that I do not understand where it comes from. And there is an inverted input needed for "G" on the LS245. So unless someone can explain to me what all these inverters in this last paragraph here are meant to do, or more importantly, how they are all wired, I cannot proceed with this experiment. So I will next look at pin 10 and beyond of the PPU. If someone else manages the above LS245 transplant and it clears up the glitches on the NES with RP2C03B then let us know!
Maybe Baku has the brains to figure this one out or Kevtris!
Cheers,
ARG
All of this may also have something to do with the cartridges themselves. Drakon has noted multiple times that JBs are worse with the PowerPak. Clearly something is going on there that intensifies the problem. I believe it was Moosmann who wrote that the Disk System version of CV2 doesn't have the problem whilst the cartridge does so it works both ways.
Following on to the next pins on the PPU, comparing PC10 and NES, PPU pins 10,11,12 (RS2,1,0) on the PC10 go direct to 2A03E CPU pins 6,5,4 (PRG A02, PRG A01, PRG A00) and to Work RAM pins 6,7,8, and to pins 15,2,17 of IC1L (3-state Bus Tranceiver), then through IC1L and out via pins 5,18,3 of 1L then to pins 25, 24, 23 of PC10 ROM cart connector.
NES is similar in that pins 10,11,12 of PPU (RS2,1,0) go direct to pins 6,5,4 of 2A03E CPU (PRG A02, PRG A01, PRG A00) and to pins 6,7,8 of Work RAM, and to pins 11,12,13 of NES cart slot, ** BUT ** the PC10 puts these 3 pins through IC 1L (3-state Bus Tranceiver), and pins
1 and 19 (Enable A, Enable B) are both connected to ground (there are circles on pins 1 and 19 on the LS244 on the PC10 schematic, maybe this indicates "inverted"?). IC 1L is a Texas Instruments SN74LS244N and is a non-inverting version according to the datasheet.
So for me to be able to try this, I would need to cut traces that go from pins 6,7,8 of Work RAM to pins 11,12,13 of NES cart slot, and instead solder on to the non-component side of the NES PCB 3 wires on the 3 pins of WRAM and take them to pins 15,2,17 of an SN74LS244N on a piece of breadboard and then out of the LS244, from pins 5,18,3 to pins 11,12,13 of NES cart slot. Also, pins 1 and 19 would need to be soldered to ground on the LS244, but I cannot do this experiment, because I don't understand what the circles are on pins 1 and 19 on the LS244 on the PC10 schematic? I don't know how to wire those 2 pins.
However I suspect that pins 1 and 19 of the LS244 are inverted by something (with reference to ground) and held HIGH so that bidirectional transfers are enabled at all times between WRAM and the PC10 ROM cart connector, so that the LS244 acts only as a sort of "buffer" so that's how I would try wiring on the NES it if I decide to have a go, and I would need a hex inverter chip on the breadboard as well. I don't much fancy cutting traces on my NES so I'll try some other answer on pins 13 and above of PPU...
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Do the toploaders have any issues with powerpaks? Apologies if this was answered before.
Thanks!
Quote from: skforty on September 10, 2011, 07:54:55 AM
Do the toploaders have any issues with powerpaks?
If you are going to RGB mod it you should replace U2 (74LS373) with a 74HC373 to fix the graphical issues.
Quote from: Salamander on September 11, 2011, 12:35:07 AM
If you are going to RGB mod it you should replace U2 (74LS373) with a 74HC373 to fix the graphical issues.
Have you noticed whether or not replacing U2 with a 74HC373 is worthwhile for any other games?
Quote from: RGB32E on September 12, 2011, 03:10:59 AM
Have you noticed whether or not replacing U2 with a 74HC373 is worthwhile for any other games?
If you mean official Nintendo releases, no. I went ahead and socketed that chip on my toaster for further experimentation and changing it from LS->HC->HCT types makes no difference on real carts.
It's actually possible to get a toaster NES with a 74HC373 inside it from the factory in spite of the fact that it's clearly silk screened with 74LS373. Good discussion and the discovery of this issue is here: http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=4016&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 (http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=4016&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)
Quote from: Live_Steam_Mad on August 09, 2011, 01:39:39 PM
Hi Markus, you mentioned on another topic in this forum "I received the PPU from VS. Top Gun yesterday. The Chip is similar labled like the PPU from Famicom Titler and it hold the NES Homesystem colorpalette" :o
Do you mean that this PPU from VS. Top Gun is RGB output but has the Composite PPU's color palette? If so, I am very interested :)
I didn't really see a definitive answer for this so I thought I'd bring it up again before it gets lost. I've been thinking on and off about modding my Twin Fami for RGB and the different color palette is something I'm a little nervous about. If the Vs. Top Gun PPU actually does have the correct palette than I'd be definitely interested in doing the mod. BTW, does the Fami Titler work with games such as Super Spy Hunter?
Quote from: ApolloBoy on September 12, 2011, 05:39:21 AM
Quote from: Live_Steam_Mad on August 09, 2011, 01:39:39 PM
Hi Markus, you mentioned on another topic in this forum "I received the PPU from VS. Top Gun yesterday. The Chip is similar labled like the PPU from Famicom Titler and it hold the NES Homesystem colorpalette" :o
Do you mean that this PPU from VS. Top Gun is RGB output but has the Composite PPU's color palette? If so, I am very interested :)
I didn't really see a definitive answer for this so I thought I'd bring it up again before it gets lost. I've been thinking on and off about modding my Twin Fami for RGB and the different color palette is something I'm a little nervous about. If the Vs. Top Gun PPU actually does have the correct palette than I'd be definitely interested in doing the mod. BTW, does the Fami Titler work with games such as Super Spy Hunter?
You can preview the change with NEStopia 1.4 emulator. Just select the RGB palette from Options / Video Options / Palette. On SMB2, on the opening screen, it's red on RGB but brown on YUV, according to the emulator. Same happens on my real RGB NES Rev. 4 (but I can no longer compare to NTSC composite since I don't have an unmodded NTSC NES).
Yep I'm trying to get hold of the RC2C05-04 chip to get the Composite NES palette but have RGB video output quality (using Baku's mod otherwise the address lines are scrambled and it won't work!). No luck yet.
Cheers,
ARG
I just looked at pins 13 to 20 of PPU, comparing PC10 to NES, trying to find a possible source of the graphics glitch problem.
Pin 13 PPU is DBE (inverted). On the PC10 it is connected direct to pin 5 of IC 2L (a Texas Instruments SN74LS139N (Dual 2-to-4 line decoder/demultiplexer)), and on the NES pin 13 of PPU is also connected directly to pin 5 of the same type of IC, BUT on the PC10 it's an LS series chip (Low power, Schottky) whereas on the my Rev. 4 NES it's a Toshiba TC74HC139P (High Speed CMOS), and this difference caused the NES PowerPak to stop working on the NES PCB's with the LS373 chip, everyone has to fit a HC chip instead to get the Powerpak to work.
So could that be causing the graphics glitch on the RP2C03B?
Can someone who has a NES with RP2C03B and a 74LS139 as U3 please try SMB2 and see if that game has the same 2 flashing short vertical blue lines graphics glitch on their NES (make sure you can see the last column of pixels!).
EDIT : Ahh I see that acem77 has an RGB NES with the 74LS139 as U3 that the guy seems to have used with an RP2C03B (Powerpak didn't work), I wonder if that has the graphics glitch on the SMB2 cart?
PPU Pins 14,15,16 are analog R,G,B I can't see that being the problem.
PPU Pin 17 is MVGround and goes direct to Ground on the PC10. This is the same on NES PCB where PPU pin 17 goes directly to Ground of NES PCB. Can't see how this could cause the graphics glitch.
PPU Pin 18 is CLK (CLocK) and on the PC10 goes into pin 10 of IC 2G (Texas Instruments SN74S04N (Hex Inverter i.e. six inverters). On the NES it's different, PPU pin 18 goes through C45 (51pF cap) and then though 220K ohms (R10) to the Base of Q2 and then through C43 (51pF cap) to ground, etc (i.e. from pin 18 of PPU then through the middle left section of "NES3" on the schematic). Can't see this being the source of the glitch problem.
PPU pin 19 is NMI (inverted) and on PC10 goes direct to pin 33 (NMI_) of 2A03 CPU, also through 10K ohms and then onto the main rail around the edge of the board, then through 120Ohms to ground. Also pin 19 goes to pin 13 of IC 8G (Texas Instruments SN74LS04N, Hex Inverter). On the NES, PPU pin 19 goes direct to pin 33 of 2A03 CPU and to pin 4 of Expansion port. Can't see this causing the graphics problem.
pin 20 PPU is GROUND for the PPU and and on PC10 goes directly to Ground. On NES it's indentical, PPU pin 20 goes direct to Ground on NES PCB. Can't be the source of the glitch.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Continuing with my search comparing PC10 and NES trying to find the possible source of the graphics glitch on the RP2C03B ;-
PPU Pin 21 is Composite SYNC (inverted) and on PC10 goes THROUGH C21 0.2uF CAPACITOR and then through 100K resistor, then through 120Ohms to ground. Also goes through the C21 capacitor to the Base of transistor Q8 (C1740).
On the NES pin 21 PPU is Composite Video, not Sync, and goes direct to the Base of transistor Q1 (A397), the Collector is Grounded, and the Emitter goes direct to pin 21 of Expansion port. Also there is a direct connection from Emitter of Q1 to R2 (150 Ohms) (on the NES Schematic it is shown as 510 Ohms instead), then through R2 to VCC (pin 36 NES cart slot), and also a direct connection from Emitter of Q1 to FC2 (Ferrite Core/Choke), then through FC2, and then through C5 (330pF) to Ground of NES PCB. From Emitter of Q1 there is a direct connection to pin 1 of the 5 pins that goes into the RF box.
On my RGB NES I am instead using pin 21 of PPU as Composite Sync (same as PC10 of course) but that's the only change from a normal Toaster NES for this PPU pin. I am still routing the Composite Sync through the RF box to amplify it, in exactly the same way that the Toaster NES does with it's Composite Video, I am using exactly the same circuit, then out to Composite Video pin on SCART, as my TV in RGB mode still uses Composite Video to get it's Sync signal from, as do most TV's apparently. Can't see how anything on the NES Sync line (compared to the PC10) could cause 2 blue flashing short vertical lines to appear in the last column of the graphics on the RP2C03B ?
PPU pin 22 is RST (inverted), (PPU ReSeT) and on PC10 goes direct to pin 6 of IC 7E (LS 259) and to pin 9 of IC 3G (74LS04 Hex Inverter). On the NES, PPU pin 22 goes to pin 3 of 2A03 CPU, and pin 9 of U9 (Toshiba TC74HCU0P, Hex Inverter), and pin 9 of U10 (CIC Lockout Chip 3193A). No way can this be causing the graphical glitch.
PPU Pin 23 is Write Enable (WE) (inverted) and on PC10 goes direct to pin 21 of IC 4k (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM) and to pin 8 of IC 3M (Texas Instruments SN74LS244N, Octal i.e. eight Bus Tranceivers with 3 State Outputs. The 3-State Outputs can drive Bus lines directly. Also called a Bi-directional Eight-Bit Buffer. It is designed for asynchronous two-way communication between data buses. The devices allow data transmission from the A bus to the B bus or from the B bus to the A bus, depending on the logic level at the direction-control (DIRection) input (pin 1). The output-enable (OE) input can disable the device so that the buses are effectively isolated). LS244 is a non-inverting version), then out from pin 12 of IC3M to A19 of PC10 ROM cart slot (WE inverted).
On the NES PPU pin 23 (CHR RAM WR_) goes direct to pin 56 of NES cart slot, and pin 21 of VRAM (U4). There is NO LS244 on the path between pin 23 of PPU to the cart slot unlike on PC10. Maybe this lack of LS244 Buffer Tranceiver chip is the cause of the graphics glitch? ???
To solve this would mean adding a wire on pin 21 of the VRAM on the NES (U4) and routing it to pin 8 of a Texas Instruments SN74LS244N on a breadboard and then another wire from pin 12 of this LS244 out back to the NES cart slot pin 56. But you would also have to cut the trace from pin 23 PPU to NES cart slot 56. I don't fancy cutting traces without knowing if this is definitely the cause of the glitch.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Now I am looking at comparing pins 24 and 25 on PC10 and NES ;-
PPU pin 24 is RD_ (Read) (inverted) and on PC10 goes direct to pin 20 (OE) of IC 4k (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM), and also via C44 68pF capacitor to ground, and goes (optionally) via SL5 solder enablable link to C45 100pF cap, then to ground.
On the NES, pin 24 PPU is CHR RAM RD_, goes direct to pin 21 of NES cart slot, and pin 20 VRAM (U4). I added a 68pF cap from pin 24 PPU to Ground, to be the same as the PC10 (and Famicom!) schematic, which removes the horizontal white-black-white and others flashing lines glitch that I was having in SMB1 with my Composite PPU (RP2C02E-0) but does NOT cure the 2 flashing short vertical blue lines graphics glitch on my RP2C03B NES in the last column of pixels on the SMB2 (NTSC) original game cart.
PPU pin 25 is PA13, and on PC10 goes direct to pin 10 of IC 5S (Texas Instruments SN74LS368AN, Hex i.e. Six bus drivers with 3-state outputs", or "Buffer Memory Address Registers", also called "Hex Buffers" and "Line Drivers", or "Drive Bus Lines" (the 368 version is the Inverted outputs version)) then out of pin 9 of IC 5S and into B12 of PC10 ROM cart socket labelled as PA13 (inverted)(IC 5S on the schematic is acting as an inverter) and also from PPU pin 25 direct to pin 6 of IC 3M (LS 244, Bus Tranceiver with the pin 1 i.e. data flow DIRection control pin grounded) then out of pin 14 of IC 3M then into PA13 i.e. A18 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
On the NES PPU pin 25 goes direct to pin 65 of NES cart slot ("CHR A13" on the NES section of Ben Heck's NES / Famicom cart slot pinout) and to pin 5 of U9 (Toshiba TC74HCU0P, Hex Inverter) (so U9 is doing the same job as IC 5S does on the PC10 :)) and to the middle pin of RA2 (Resistor Array 2) then through 5.2K Ohms of RA2 to middle left pin of RA2 then to pin 36 of 2A03 CPU, also from middle pin of RA2 then through 9.7K Ohms of RA2 to far left hand pin of RA2 then to pin 35 of 2A03 CPU, also from middle pin of RA2 then through 7.6K Ohms of RA2 to middle right pin of RA2 then to pin 39 of 2A03 CPU, also from middle pin of RA2 then through 5.4K Ohms of RA2 to far right pin of RA2 then to pin 40 of 2A03 CPU and to VCC (pin 36 of NES cart slot).
Also on my NES, Pin 6 of U9 (TC74HCU04P, hex inverter) goes to pin 58 of NES cart slot (CHR A13 inverted).
Thus, maybe using a Texas Instruments SN74LS368AN (IC 5S on PC10) instead of U9 (Toshiba TC74HCU0P Hex Inverter) on the NES might solve the glitch problem, but that would require lifting pin 25 of PPU socket and soldering a wire on pin 25's PPU socket connection pin (like with the RGB mod) and wiring it to pin 10 of a Texas Instruments SN74LS368AN on a separate breadboard and then coming out of the 368 on pin 9 and going into pin 58 of NES cart slot (CHR A13 inverted), and the trace from PPU pin 25 to pin 5 of U9 wouldn't have to be cut since it's already had it's input removed by lifting pin 25 of PPU socket.
This might be one of the easier fixes. Just wish I knew if it would fix the glitch. But then this chip is merely an inverter! I don't see how this can be the source of the graphics glitch problem on the RP2C03B?!
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Now taking a look at PPU pins 26, 27, 28, on PC10 and comparing to NES, we have ;-
PPU pin 26 is PA12 and on PC10 goes direct to pin 13 of IC 3M (LS 244, Bus Tranceiver with the pin 1 i.e. data flow DIRection control pin grounded) then out of pin 7 of IC 3M then into PA12 i.e. A17 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
On the NES, PPU pin 26 is PA12 (CHR A12), goes direct to pin 64 of NES cart slot. There is no Bus Transceiver between PPU pin 26 and the PA12 connection on the cart slot, unlike PC10.
Maybe this is the source of the glitch? To make the NES the same as PC10 you would have to lift pin 26 of PPU socket and have a wire going from pin 26 PPU socket to pin 13 of a Texas Instruments SN74LS244N on a piece of Veroboard, then out of pin 7 of the LS244 then into pin 64 of the NES cart slot. The existing trace from pin 26 of PPU hole on NES PCB to pin 64 of the cart slot would not have to be cut.
PPU pin 27 is PA11 and on PC10 goes direct to pin 4 of IC 3M (LS 244, Bus Tranceiver with the pin 1 i.e. data flow DIRection control pin grounded) then out of pin 16 of IC 3M then into PA11 i.e. A16 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
On the NES, PPU pin 27 is PA11 (CHR A11), goes direct to pin 62 of NES cart slot. There is no Bus Transceiver between PPU pin 27 and the PA11 connection on the cart slot, unlike PC10.
Maybe this is the source of the glitch? To make the NES the same as PC10 you would have to lift pin 27 of PPU socket and have a wire going from pin 27 PPU socket to pin 4 of a Texas Instruments SN74LS244N on a piece of Veroboard, then out of pin 16 of the LS244 then into pin 62 of the NES cart slot. The existing trace from pin 27 of PPU hole on NES PCB to pin 62 of the cart slot would not have to be cut.
PPU pin 28 is PA10 and on PC10 goes direct to pin 15 of IC 3M (LS 244, Bus Tranceiver with the pin 1 i.e. data flow DIRection control pin grounded) then out of pin 5 of IC 3M then into PA10 i.e. A15 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
On the NES, PPU pin 28 is PA10 (CHR A10), goes direct to pin 63 of NES cart slot. There is no Bus Transceiver between PPU pin 28 and the PA10 connection on the cart slot, unlike PC10.
Maybe this is the source of the glitch? To make the NES the same as PC10 you would have to lift pin 28 of PPU socket and have a wire going from pin 28 PPU socket to pin 15 of a Texas Instruments SN74LS244N on a piece of Veroboard, then out of pin 5 of the LS244 then into pin 63 of the NES cart slot. The existing trace from pin 27 of PPU hole on NES PCB to pin 62 of the cart slot would not have to be cut.
So these 3 above modications for PPU pins 26,27,28 would all have to be done as a whole since they are identical in concept and would make the NES be like the PC10. I think this might be a little more likely to be a cause of the graphics glitch since the glitch is strongly related to the vertical position of the Character (sprite), as the top vertical blue flashing line is fixed and is inline with the SMB2 "health" status display and the lower vertical blue flashing line goes up and down exactly with the movement of the blue enemy sprite when you go into the second door in the World 1 (see the Picassa link to my picture that I posted here a while back).
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Taking a look at PPU pins 29 and 30 on PC10 and comparing to NES, we have ;-
PPU pin 29 is PA9 and on PC10 goes direct to pin 22 of IC 4K (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM) and goes direct from pin 22 of VRAM to pin 2 of IC 3M (LS 244, Bus Tranceiver with the pin 1 i.e. data flow DIRection control pin grounded) then out of pin 18 of IC 3M then into PA9 i.e. A14 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
On the NES, pin 29 is PA9 (CHR A09), goes direct to pin 61 of NES cart slot and pin 22 of VRAM (U4). There is no Bus Transceiver between PPU pin 29 and the PA9 connection on the cart slot, unlike PC10.
Maybe this is the source of the glitch? To make the NES the same as PC10 you would have to lift pin 29 of PPU socket and have a wire going from pin 29 PPU socket to pin 2 of a Texas Instruments SN74LS244N on a piece of Veroboard, then out of pin 18 of the LS244 then into pin 61 of the NES cart slot. The existing trace from pin 29 of PPU hole on NES PCB to pin 61 of the cart slot would not have to be cut.
PPU pin 30 is PA8 and on PC10 goes direct to pin 23 of IC 4K (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM) and goes direct from pin 23 of VRAM to pin 17 of IC 3M (LS 244, Bus Tranceiver with the pin 1 i.e. data flow DIRection control pin grounded) then out of pin 3 of IC 3M then into PA8 i.e. A13 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
On the NES, pin 30 is PA8 (CHR A08), goes direct to pin 60 of NES cart slot and pin 23 of VRAM (U4). There is no Bus Transceiver between PPU pin 30 and the PA8 connection on the cart slot, unlike PC10.
Maybe this is the source of the glitch? To make the NES the same as PC10 you would have to lift pin 30 of PPU socket and have a wire going from pin 30 PPU socket to pin 17 of a Texas Instruments SN74LS244N on a piece of Veroboard, then out of pin 3 of the LS244 then into pin 60 of the NES cart slot. The existing trace from pin 30 of PPU hole on NES PCB to pin 60 of the cart slot would not have to be cut.
So the modification for pins 26,27,28,29, and 30 would all have to be done at the same time as they all do the same thing. This makes the NES like the PlayChoice 10 for these pins and may stop the graphics glitch.
Cheers,
ARG
Now looking at PPU pins 31,32,33 and 34 of the PlayChoice 10 versus the NES, they operate in the same way as each other ;-
PPU pin 31 is AD7 and on PC10 goes direct to pin 18 of IC 3K (Toshiba TC74HC373AP, Octal i.e. eight D-Type Latches with 3-State Outputs http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/214632/TOSHIBA/TC74HC373AP_07.html (http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/214632/TOSHIBA/TC74HC373AP_07.html)) then out of pin 19 of IC 3K and into A7 i.e. pin 1 of IC 4K (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM) and from A7 of VRAM direct to pin PA7 i.e. C14 of PC10 ROM cart socket. Also PPU pin 31 goes direct to AD 7 (D7) i.e. pin 17 of VRAM and goes direct from pin 17 of VRAM to PD7 i.e. B13 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
On the NES, pin 31 is AD7 (CHR D7), goes direct to pin 18 of U2 (Toshiba TC74HC373P (Non-inverting Octal D-type Latch with 3-State output, see http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Databooks-4/Book609-949.pdf (http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Databooks-4/Book609-949.pdf)) then out of pin 19 of U2 (O8, output no. 8) then to pin 1 of VRAM (A7) and to CHR A07 i.e. pin 59 of NES cart slot. Also PPU pin 31 goes direct to AD7 i.e. pin 17 of VRAM (U4) and CHR D7 i.e. pin 66 of NES cart slot.
So therefore PC10 is identical to NES here.
PPU pin 32 is AD6 and on PC10 goes direct to pin 3 of IC 3K (Toshiba TC74HC373AP, Octal i.e. eight D-Type Latches with 3-State Outputs http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/214632/TOSHIBA/TC74HC373AP_07.html (http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/214632/TOSHIBA/TC74HC373AP_07.html)) then out of pin 2 of IC 3K and into A6 i.e. pin 1 of IC 4K (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM) and from A6 of VRAM direct to pin PA6 i.e. C15 of PC10 ROM cart socket. Also PPU pin 32 goes direct to AD 6 (D6) i.e. pin 16 of VRAM and goes direct from pin 16 of VRAM to PD6 i.e. B14 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
On the NES, pin 32 is AD6 (CHR D6), goes direct to pin 3 of U2 (Toshiba TC74HC373P (Non-inverting Octal D-type Latch with 3-State output, see http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Databooks-4/Book609-949.pdf (http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Databooks-4/Book609-949.pdf)) then out of pin 2 of U2 (O1, output no. 1) then to pin 2 of VRAM (A6) and to CHR A06 i.e. pin 23 of NES cart slot. Also PPU pin 32 goes direct to AD6 i.e. pin 16 of VRAM (U4) and CHR D6 i.e. pin 67 of NES cart slot.
So therefore PC10 is identical to NES here.
PPU pin 33 is AD5 and on PC10 goes direct to pin 17 of IC 3K (Toshiba TC74HC373AP, Octal i.e. eight D-Type Latches with 3-State Outputs http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/214632/TOSHIBA/TC74HC373AP_07.html (http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/214632/TOSHIBA/TC74HC373AP_07.html)) then out of pin 16 of IC 3K and into A5 i.e. pin 3 of IC 4K (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM) and from A5 of VRAM direct to pin PA5 i.e. C16 of PC10 ROM cart socket. Also PPU pin 33 goes direct to AD 5 i.e. pin 15 of VRAM and goes direct from pin 15 of VRAM to PD5 i.e. B15 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
On the NES, pin 33 is AD5 (CHR D5), goes direct to pin 17 of U2 (Toshiba TC74HC373P, Octal i.e. Eight D-type Latch with 3-State outputs, see http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Databooks-4/Book609-949.pdf (http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Databooks-4/Book609-949.pdf)) then out of pin 16 of U2 (O7, output no. 7) then to pin 3 of VRAM (A5) and to CHR A05 i.e. pin 24 of NES cart slot. Also PPU pin 33 goes direct to AD5 i.e. pin 15 of VRAM (U4) and CHR D5 i.e. pin 68 of NES cart slot.
So therefore PC10 is identical to NES here.
PPU pin 34 is AD4 and on PC10 goes direct to pin 4 of IC 3K (Toshiba TC74HC373AP, Octal i.e. eight D-Type Latches with 3-State Outputs http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/214632/TOSHIBA/TC74HC373AP_07.html (http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/214632/TOSHIBA/TC74HC373AP_07.html)) then out of pin 5 of IC 3K and into A4 i.e. pin 4 of IC 4K (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM) and from A4 of VRAM direct to pin PA4 i.e. C17 of PC10 ROM cart socket. Also PPU pin 34 goes direct to AD 4 i.e. pin 14 of VRAM and goes direct from pin 14 of VRAM to PD4 i.e. B16 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
On the NES, pin 34 is AD4 (CHR D4), goes direct to pin 4 of U2 (Toshiba TC74HC373P (Non-inverting Octal D-type Latch with 3-State output, see http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Databooks-4/Book609-949.pdf (http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Databooks-4/Book609-949.pdf)) then out of pin 5 of U2 (O2, output no. 2) then to pin 4 of VRAM (A4) and to CHR A04 i.e. pin 25 of NES cart slot. Also PPU pin 34 goes direct to AD4 i.e. pin 14 of VRAM (U4) and CHR D4 i.e. pin 69 of NES cart slot.
So therefore PC10 is identical to NES in the case of pins 31,32,33 and 34, so this can't be causing the glitch.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Considering PPU pins 35,36,37,38, they are the same on PC10 as NES, in the same way that pins 31,32,33 and 34 were ;-
pin 35 is AD3 and on PC10 goes direct to pin 14 of IC 3K (Toshiba TC74HC373AP, Octal i.e. Eight D-Type Latches with 3-State Outputs http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/214632/TOSHIBA/TC74HC373AP_07.html (http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/214632/TOSHIBA/TC74HC373AP_07.html)) then out of pin 15 of IC 3K and into A3 i.e. pin 5 of IC 4K (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM) and from A3 of VRAM direct to pin PA3 i.e. C18 of PC10 ROM cart socket. Also PPU pin 35 goes direct to AD 3 i.e. pin 13 of VRAM and goes direct from pin 13 of VRAM to PD3 i.e. B17 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
On the NES, pin 35 is AD3 (CHR D3), goes direct to pin 14 of U2 (Toshiba TC74HC373P, Non-inverting Octal D-type Latch with 3-State output, see http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Databooks-4/Book609-949.pdf (http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Databooks-4/Book609-949.pdf)) then out of pin 15 of U2 (O6, output no. 6) then to pin 5 of VRAM (A3) and to CHR A03 i.e. pin 26 of NES cart slot. Also PPU pin 35 goes direct to AD3 i.e. pin 13 of VRAM (U4) and CHR D3 i.e. pin 33 of NES cart slot.
So therefore PC10 is identical to NES here.
PPU pin 36 is AD2 and on PC10 goes direct to pin 7 of IC 3K (Toshiba TC74HC373AP, Octal i.e. Eight D-Type Latches with 3-State Outputs http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/214632/TOSHIBA/TC74HC373AP_07.html (http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/214632/TOSHIBA/TC74HC373AP_07.html)) then out of pin 6 of IC 3K and into A2 i.e. pin 6 of IC 4K (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM) and from A2 of VRAM direct to pin PA2 i.e. C19 of PC10 ROM cart socket. Also PPU pin 36 goes direct to AD 2 i.e. pin 11 of VRAM and goes direct from pin 11 of VRAM to PD2 i.e. B18 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
On the NES, pin 36 is AD2 (CHR D2), goes direct to pin 7 of U2 (Toshiba TC74HC373P, Non-inverting Octal D-type Latches with 3-State output, see http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Databooks-4/Book609-949.pdf (http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Databooks-4/Book609-949.pdf)) then out of pin 6 of U2 (O3, output no. 3) then to pin 6 of VRAM (A2) and to CHR A02 i.e. pin 27 of NES cart slot. Also PPU pin 36 goes direct to AD2 i.e. pin 11 of VRAM (U4) and CHR D2 i.e. pin 32 of NES cart slot.
So therefore PC10 is identical to NES here.
PPU pin 37 is AD1 and on PC10 goes direct to pin 13 of IC 3K (Toshiba TC74HC373AP, Octal i.e. Eight D-Type Latches with 3-State Outputs http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/214632/TOSHIBA/TC74HC373AP_07.html (http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/214632/TOSHIBA/TC74HC373AP_07.html)) then out of pin 12 of IC 3K and into A1 i.e. pin 7 of IC 4K (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM) and from A1 of VRAM direct to pin PA1 i.e. C20 of PC10 ROM cart socket. Also PPU pin 37 goes direct to AD 1 i.e. pin 10 of VRAM and goes direct from pin 10 of VRAM to PD1 i.e. B19 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
On the NES, pin 37 is AD1 (CHR D1), goes direct to pin 13 of U2 (Toshiba TC74HC373P, Non-inverting Octal D-type Latch with 3-State output, see http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Databooks-4/Book609-949.pdf (http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Databooks-4/Book609-949.pdf)) then out of pin 12 of U2 (O5, output no. 5) then to pin 7 of VRAM (A1) and to CHR A01 i.e. pin 28 of NES cart slot. Also PPU pin 37 goes direct to AD1 i.e. pin 10 of VRAM (U4) and CHR D1 i.e. pin 31 of NES cart slot.
So therefore PC10 is identical to NES here.
PPU pin 38 is AD0 and on PC10 goes direct to pin 8 of IC 3K (Toshiba TC74HC373AP, Octal i.e. Eight D-Type Latches with 3-State Outputs http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/214632/TOSHIBA/TC74HC373AP_07.html (http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/214632/TOSHIBA/TC74HC373AP_07.html)) then out of pin 9 of IC 3K and into A0 i.e. pin 8 of IC 4K (VRAM, 6116, 2K x 8 bits CMOS Static RAM) and from A0 of VRAM direct to pin PA0 i.e. C21 of PC10 ROM cart socket. Also PPU pin 38 goes direct to AD 0 i.e. pin 9 of VRAM and goes direct from pin 9 of VRAM to PD0 i.e. B20 of PC10 ROM cart socket.
On the NES, pin 38 is AD0 (CHR D0), goes direct to pin 8 of U2 (Toshiba TC74HC373P, Non-inverting Octal D-type Latches with 3-State output, see http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Databooks-4/Book609-949.pdf (http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Databooks-4/Book609-949.pdf)) then out of pin 9 of U2 (O4, output no. 4) then to pin 8 of VRAM (A0) and to CHR A00 i.e. pin 29 of NES cart slot. Also PPU pin 38 goes direct to AD0 i.e. pin 9 of VRAM (U4) and CHR D0 i.e. pin 30 of NES cart slot.
So therefore PC10 is identical to NES on PPU pins 31,32,33,34,35,36,37 and 38, so this can't be causing the glitch.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Quote from: Salamander on September 02, 2011, 01:21:14 AM
Probably not a wise thing to do to the one and only RGB NES I have on hand to mess around with but I did decide to tinker yesterday after reading the posts here. Grounding out the PPU data bus pins one at a time, specifically ALE and AD0 through AD7 leads me to believe this is where the problem may be. Obviously grounding any of these is going to produce graphical issues but ALE through AD2 in particular were interesting. It produced black bars a few pixels thick, evenly spaced, at roughly the same positions on the screen as the jailbars. Could be a good place to start looking?
(http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx199/slagmarble/DSCN0505.jpg)
(http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx199/slagmarble/DSCN0506.jpg)
I just traced PPU pins AD0 though AD7 and the NES is identical to the PC10, and uses the exact same Toshiba TC74HC373P. However ALE on PC10 is routed through a LS367A, which doesn't exist in the NES, as you rightly pointed out.
So that might be where the glitch is coming from on my Rev.4 NES on SMB2 with RP2C03B. To solve it, I would have to lift PPU socket pin 39 and solder a wire from there to pin 2 of a Texas Instruments SN74LS367AN (A Hex i.e. Six Bus Drivers with 3-State Outputs) on a separate piece of Veroboard (LS367 is the True outputs version, LS 368 is Inverted outputs, datasheet is here http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/27433/TI/SN74LS367AN.html (http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/27433/TI/SN74LS367AN.html) ), pin 3 is wired to pin 4, pin 5 is wired to pin 6, and then out of pin 6 and going into pin 11 of U2 (the Toshiba TC74HC373P). You wouldn't have to cut the trace on the existing line from PPU pin 39 to U2 in this case. Dunno what's happening on pin 8 of the LS367, hopefully not important. Also, as you mentioned, there is interaction between pins 9 and 10 of the IC and pin 31 of the CPU, so pin 10 of the LS367 has to connect to CPU pin 31, and I can't work out where you need to solder pin 9 to. And as you mentioned, pin 11 of LS367 needs to go to IRQ (inverted) i.e. pin 15 of NES cart slot, pin 12 of LS367 has to go to IRQ (non-inverted) of CPU i.e. CPU pin 32, so you would solder it onto the rear (solder side) of the NES PCB, pin 13 of the LS367 has to go to R/W (inverted) i.e. pin 14 of the NES cart slot, pin 14 of LS367 has to go to WE (inverted) i.e. pin 21 of Work RAM, and pin 15 is grounded. Pin 1 also has to be Ground and pin 16 must be VCC I suppose.
If you've already wired up a LS367 exactly as above and found that it didn't stop the glitches, or if not you then Drakon as I he tried it (I don't care about the jail bars as I don't see them) in SMB2 on a Toaster NES, then I give up. If either of you just tried e.g. the CPU pin 31 to pin 10 and only part of the above then I might try it myself sometime.
Pin 40 is the last pin and it can't be VCC that's causing the glitch surely LOL.
Well that's it, I'm outta pins. Was an interesting excersise which got me some more soldering practice and I learned some new techniques, but I'm stuck with the remaining glitches on this NES until I try some of the above experiments maybe. Anyway if I can't be bothered then instead I'll finish up (I need to add an amp in the audio mod, but I figured that one out already after I found a webpage for it, it needs a bi-polar power supply but I found a schematic for one so I should be able to do it) and report back when my RGB NES is looking finished. I got the blue and green and white soft touch knobs (LOL) from Maplin (I had the red already) for the R,G,B pots (the 500 Ohm pots arrived also) so I've got the stuff to finish the mod.
Next step would be adding an RP2C03B to an AV Famicom but that means $$ that I don't have at the moment, since I can't afford an AV Famicom (40 GBP minimum plus expensive postage plus hit for Customs Fees and VAT...) Also I want to try the Baku mod on an RC2C05-04 and see if I get the Composite palette with RGB video quality.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
I'd like to see some evidence the issues aren't present on actual Playchoice hardware. Finding video capture of live gameplay doesn't seem to be that easy though.
Quote from: Salamander on September 18, 2011, 11:22:03 PM
I'd like to see some evidence the issues aren't present on actual Playchoice hardware. Finding video capture of live gameplay doesn't seem to be that easy though.
If you look at reply #288 here I found a youtube video of Gamester81's actual PlayChoice 10 cab and you can see clearly on his video that you can see the last column of pixels in SMB1. So he must be able to see the last column of pixels in SMB2. And he has got SMB2 for his PlayChoice 10. I described to him the picture glitch being 2 short blue vertical lines in the last column of pixels on the right of the screen that were flashing constantly in SMB2 on my NES, and he confirmed to me that he does not see this glitch AT ALL on his PC10. That's about as good evidence as I'm gonna get short of contacting yet another person with a real PC10 cab. So I'm personally convinced that PC10 doesn't have the glitch even though it has the same RP2C03B PPU as I am using.
Would be great if anyone else reading this topic who has a real PC10 cab and confirm one way or the other through.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
PAL french NES moded to RGB and works flawlessly.
The tricky part is the AV box, it converts composite to RGB. First it removes the video signal and kept only the sync. I must take video signal before it's sent to the AV box. Second, there is some component who generate some EM interferences and is resulting in a distorted and unstable image. This is the case of RGB amp part in AV box, after the Sony v7021 chip. I remove the transitors and... tadaa clear bright RGB image... but with some jail bars. No problem I take the ground for the RGB amp from VEE pin on PPU.
Finaly, I kept AV box powered to allow blanking signal works on scart TV.
Actually in some games, original video signal feel more "natural" than RGB. Look at these pics :
Original composite :skyscrapers seem futuristics
(http://wellby.dyndns.org/dnl/img/rock2-pal-01.jpg)
RGB : skyscrapers smell good the eighties soaps ::)
(http://wellby.dyndns.org/dnl/img/rock2-rvb-01.jpg)
Now you can have a french NES who switch automaticaly your TV in AV and deliver a true RGB image.
some others photos here (http://wellby.dyndns.org/dnl/nes-pal-rgb.7z)
Quote from: kschafer2598 on May 31, 2011, 07:26:33 AM
Quote from: marqs on May 30, 2011, 05:42:54 AM
Seems like some address/data lines are short-circuited or unconnected. I'd also check the cartridge connector pins. My famicom has similar issues if I push the cartridge full way down, but if I pull it a bit up from the bottom then it's fixed. I have RP2C03B inside the famicom so it shouldn't be a compatibility issue.
Thanks for the info, I'll give it a shot. Weird thing is that with the stock fami PPU it works fine - no glitches. I was thinking that maybe I screwed up a trace or crossed something somewhere but since the standard PPU works I'm not sure what could be wrong.
I know I'm replying to my own post from for ever ago, so sue me :) I just wanted to update this in case anyone else experienced the problems I did, because to be honest, it drove me crazy.
I was not able to get the PC 10 PPU to work in the famicom I had it in - nothing would work. I ended up giving up on it after learning that there are different versions of the 1st model famicoms, and that some are easier to mod for RGB than others. I ended up finding a much earlier unit that worked perfectly the first time around - it has a serial number H5966785 with a solid blue cartridge slot. Also, it has flexible wires between the power/rf board, rather than being secured to the board.
The one that DIDN'T work had an HC serial number and a metal surround on the cartridge slot.
Hope this helps anyone modding the early famicoms.
Quote from: kschafer2598 on February 11, 2012, 03:14:42 PM
I know I'm replying to my own post from for ever ago, so sue me :) I just wanted to update this in case anyone else experienced the problems I did, because to be honest, it drove me crazy.
I was not able to get the PC 10 PPU to work in the famicom I had it in - nothing would work. I ended up giving up on it after learning that there are different versions of the 1st model famicoms, and that some are easier to mod for RGB than others. I ended up finding a much earlier unit that worked perfectly the first time around - it has a serial number H5966785 with a solid blue cartridge slot. Also, it has flexible wires between the power/rf board, rather than being secured to the board.
The one that DIDN'T work had an HC serial number and a metal surround on the cartridge slot.
Hope this helps anyone modding the early famicoms.
Are you sure the boards wasn't just damaged in some way during the installation?
How'd you get by the fact that the PPU (At least in the models I've seen) is very close to the eject mechanism, does your eject lever still work? I'm guessing you did not use the heatsink?
im about to jump into this and ill let you know how it goes.
ive got a few ideas.
Im going to be using an ultimarc rgb amp and am going to replace the resistors/caps on the rgb lines of it to the correct ones.
ive read that the ultimarc amp is a bit too bright on the nes out of the box.
i am also going to take some sheilded mini-coax from a cheap a/v cable to use for the rgb lines, and ground the sheild to the scart connector and pin 17. should that clear any jailbars i may get?
i added composite to my toploader a while back and i used this same sheilded cable and grounded it to my video amp ground and i never did get any bars with the composite mod.
Pretty much everything I've posted in here is long out of date. Updates can be found on my forum here:
http://consolemods.forumotion.ca/ (http://consolemods.forumotion.ca/)
Markus, I saw that here http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=601&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=90&sid=32c4296994cfe0bd4294cd99a2adb685 (http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=601&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=90&sid=32c4296994cfe0bd4294cd99a2adb685) you said "I got an old Famicom last week and i see very much vertikal stripes lines.
To reduce the lines, lift Pin 21 from the PPU or disconnect the line from pin 21 to 2sc...transistor and solder the Video-Amp directly to the PPU. However, you always have some vertikal lines on some games (e.g. Bird Week), so please solder an 220uF electrolyt capacitor between PPU Pin 40 and GND. You also have to take the 5V for the Video Amp from PPU Pin 40 (...and 220uf capacitor) and not from an other 5V place from the PCB.
Solder an 220uF electrolyt capacitor without lift Pin 21 from the PPU or vice versa don`t make it 100% stripes free.
Greeting Markus"
...and I was wondering should I be adding a 220uF electrolytic capacitor with positive leg onto pin 40 of PPU (PPU pin 40 not lifted) and negative leg going to GND (which ground?!, pin 20 of PPU ? I assume if so that you do not lift pin 20 of PPU) on my RGB modded USA Toaster NES revision CPU-04, would that reduce the Jail Bars?
Just noticed that you also mentioned this at http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=2990.0 (http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=2990.0)
Ahh Arasoi already tried this on his ;- http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1592.msg28786#msg28786 (http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1592.msg28786#msg28786) but it didn't do anything to the jail bars, but I he didn't say what revision his NES is (he is using RP2C03B).
Also should I be taking 5V from PPU pin 40 (PPU pin 40 not lifted I assume) to power the RGB amp (which is your design), because I took 5V from the large PCB trace next to one of the cart slot connections, just like you are doing on your web page guide made a while back.
Drakon also mentioned in a post to try connecting pin20 of PPU (ground) to the ground of the video amp, that finally completely removed the jail bars on his NES revision 6 and also removed the audio buzzing (only worked when he also had pin17 of PPU lifted and connected to the SCART ground). I need to try that (minus that last part, I'm not lifting pins now!) since I have my RGB amp' ground wired to a place just to the right of my 5V cart' slot pin connection that I mentioned above, again just like Markus did in his web page guide.
I have very mild jail bars when I am running my video projector with new lamp in it (Infocus IN76) on maximum sharpness, and they are only visible on certain colors (blue/purple sky and orange/browns also) and not visible on my 14" Sony Trinitron TV. The jail bars are rather faint on my IN76, and not visible at all in black areas, this being with the RP2C03B batch code 8L4 18 that had a heatsink on that I just sold to Martin Larsen in Denmark.
Also I read here http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=601&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=165 (http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=601&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=165) that "you need to add a 47uF - 100uF capacistor between PPU #22 (SYNC) and #20 (GND) <-- This is like magic and removes - if not all, most of the vertical bars. I've done this on several Famicoms with good result. Some machines give more jailbars then others and with the cap over #22-#20 they dissapear or become wery faint depending on how much interference there is."
...so should I add a cap between PPU Pin22 (RESET) and PPU Pin 20 (Ground) on my RGB modded NES to reduce the Jail Bars ? http://jpx72.detailne.sk/modd_files/fc/avmod.htm (http://jpx72.detailne.sk/modd_files/fc/avmod.htm)
I would also like to be able to get rid of the stupid blue artefacts at the right edge of the screen that I see every time in Super Mario Bros 2 (USA cart) when played on my USA Toaster NES revision CPU-04 with the chip I just mentioned that I sold to Martin (and on all my other 4 off RP2C03B's)... I thought Drakon didn't have them with revisions 6, 10, and 11 of the NTSC NES, but he said "I didn't play mario 2 on a toaster I played it on the av famicom. My nes-cpu-06 toaster I will test later", so I'll have to go and ask Drakon about that. Or I'll get a revision 2 AV Famicom (like Drakon has) if I can afford it.
Also, has anyone managed to use an RP2C05-0x and get the original NES palette but with RGB signal quality yet?
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Quote from: Live_Steam_Mad on April 02, 2012, 12:42:58 PM
Also, has anyone managed to use an RP2C05 and get the original NES palette but with RGB signal quality yet?
Drakon tried the RC2C05-04 that was shown here earlier and he said that it has the same palette as all the other compatible RGB PPUs.
Quote from: Salamander on September 09, 2011, 01:05:33 AM
All of this may also have something to do with the cartridges themselves. Drakon has noted multiple times that JBs are worse with the PowerPak. Clearly something is going on there that intensifies the problem. I believe it was Moosmann who wrote that the Disk System version of CV2 doesn't have the problem whilst the cartridge does so it works both ways.
I wonder if it would be possible to create a cartridge adapter that you would plug your cartridge into this device, and then it would have an AC filter on all the voltage lines, then the device would plug into your Famicom/NES and it would hopefully reduce AC interference and noise.
Another solution might be some kind of AC filtering base that you could set your famicom/NES on top of that would filter out AC noise.
The only problem is such devices don't currently exist AFAIK.
Quote from: ApolloBoy on April 03, 2012, 07:02:34 AM
Quote from: Live_Steam_Mad on April 02, 2012, 12:42:58 PM
Also, has anyone managed to use an RP2C05 and get the original NES palette but with RGB signal quality yet?
Drakon tried the RC2C05-04 that was shown here earlier and he said that it has the same palette as all the other compatible RGB PPUs.
Got a link for that? I'd love to see it!
Cheers,
ARG
OK I just found the topic ;-
http://consolemods.forumotion.ca/t28-the-rare-rc2c05-04-ppu?highlight=RC2C05 (http://consolemods.forumotion.ca/t28-the-rare-rc2c05-04-ppu?highlight=RC2C05)
BTW Holy Cow, the PPU that I sold to Martin is looking good ;-
http://www.playright.dk/forum/emne/26126-vis-os-dit-mod-traaden#557027 (http://www.playright.dk/forum/emne/26126-vis-os-dit-mod-traaden#557027)
(his user name is Konsolkongen)
Cheers,
Alistair G.
edit: wrong thread
Hi Skips, I see you used a revision 10 toaster NES (NTSC) and an RP2C03B. Do you get the 2 short blue lines on the right on the first part of your USA version SMB2 game with the black screen (where you fall down the screen a long way) ? I can see you have enough overscan on your HDTV to show it if it's there.
I am using Rev. 4 NTSC toaster NES and USA version SMB2 and I see the 2 short blue lines.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Quote from: skips on August 05, 2012, 11:42:35 AM
I take it you are talking about this? A second one shows up for a split second when falling on the right side. There are a few oddities like that even though I have the 68pf capacitor on pin 24.
Hi, yes that's the glitch that I get. Well now I know revision 10 NES can't cure it LOL.
Funny you should post here tonight as I was just soldering up the audio amplifier mod to the NES to make the stereo sound up to line level strength since it's weak and annoying when you do the standard stereo mod. I'll post a little update if it works.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
@Live_Steam_Mad:
Have you tried a different PPU? Of the ones I've gotten my hands on (RP2C03B, RC2C03B) both show the same glitching when not using overscan. I built one of those Japanese kits for the AV Famicom a few months ago and it shows them as well. The PPU I was trying to track down to test, RC2Co3C, allegedly does not show these. It appears to be a slightly harder to find version packaged with Vs. Duck Hunt. My current setup on a Sony PVM allows overscan to hide the problem but I can certainly understand your frustration.
@skips:
I would try desoldering the dual mono jacks entirely first to see if that clears up the noise.
Quote from: skips on August 11, 2012, 12:49:34 AM
Last night I decided to toy around with it and [ ] I started by putting a .1uf capacitor on the sync line. Video came right up. This part might interest you Live_Steam_Mad. I popped in Mario Brothers 2 again and noticed that the blue line glitch at the start was far less noticeable. I decided to experiment some more and tried bigger capacitors each time. I ended up at a 220 uf capacitor and the glitch is almost non existent now. It is still there but is far less than it used to be. Doing this also seemed to clear up a few other glitches I was experiencing as well. I updated my last post to include that you do not need the sync cleaner. I am by no means an expert but maybe thats something you can go off of.
I also seem to be getting a fair amount of noise in the picture. You do not notice it in most games but if the screen is black or mostly black (ship levels in Mario 3) It becomes a bit more noticeable. The noise seems to be there regardless of where I ground it. Would anyone have any ideas on how to clean this up a bit?
On page 8 I mentioned that "I just put a 220uF cap on the amplified Composite Sync just before it hits pin 20 of my SCART plug, my NES is using the RF box for amping the Sync, and with the new cap it did NOT remove these darned glitches. Curses. All it did was make my jail bars suddenly visible when they weren't there before, so that I now needed to turn my TV down more, this time to 50 percent brightness, to make them go away on the black start screen of SMB2.
As well as increasing the jail bars significantly, I also got the 2 vertical short blue lines on the right in the last column of pixels flashing at me a lot more prevalently in SMB2. This sucked LOL. They were still there in the World section 1 as well. No change on SMB1.
Either the strength of the cap might make a difference maybe or maybe I have to add a cap before the sync gets amplified instead, or I am just wasting my time and it's the revision of my NES and I can't get rid of it (which is what I strongly suspect) without altering one or more IC's on my PCB."
I am using a Sony KV14LT1U 14" Flat Trinitron CRT TV, and NTSC Revision 4 NES with USA version of SMB2.
On page 8 I mentioned that I have "fitted the 68pF capacitor as recommended by Markus for the RP2C03B. There are now no signs of the horizontal broken blue lines on the underground stages of SMB1, or anywhere else on that game (so it seems the cap mod only solves the horizontal short flashing lines problems), BUT there are still the 2 flashing short vertical blue lines in SMB2 on a lot or all of level 1 and still a white border to the right on the intro screens of SMB2. This is quite annoying. There is also the less annoying glitch on the top right whilst rendering new screens on SMB1."
Also, to maybe help with your noise issue, on page 7 I mentioned that "I temporarily touched the flying lead from SCART Green Ground onto NES PCB in the very corner of the NES PCB (3 large corner stripes of metal where the controller connectors are, on the solder side of PCB) picture went MUCH better, wavy curved interference went and blacks were black. Also happened when I touched Composite Sync Ground flying lead from SCART onto NES PCB in same place.
So I connected Green Ground from SCART and Composite Sync Ground from SCART together and then connected them onto the Moosmann RGB amp. PCB ground and the picture went terrible (wavy curved lines interference to the max, black went verrry grey). Seems as if the interference source was the Moosmann amp PCB!"
Are you grounding your video RGB amp in the same place that I am? I am still using the Moosmann RGB amp, just grounding the Green Ground and Comp. Sync ground on the NES PCB instead of at the amp. PCB.
Also I finally cracked the weak audio problem when you do the "stereo" mod. by making an audio amp PCB and it works great and causes no interference on the RGB picture, see ;-
http://forums.benheck.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=28534&p=467312#p467312 (http://forums.benheck.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=28534&p=467312#p467312)
Regards,
Alistair G.
Quote from: Salamander on August 11, 2012, 08:40:56 AM
@Live_Steam_Mad:
Have you tried a different PPU? Of the ones I've gotten my hands on (RP2C03B, RC2C03B) both show the same glitching when not using overscan. I built one of those Japanese kits for the AV Famicom a few months ago and it shows them as well. The PPU I was trying to track down to test, RC2Co3C, allegedly does not show these. It appears to be a slightly harder to find version packaged with Vs. Duck Hunt. My current setup on a Sony PVM allows overscan to hide the problem but I can certainly understand your frustration.
All 5 of my PPU's were RP2C03B, I haven't tried any others yet. All 5 showed the same glitches in SMB1 and SMB2. Markus said on page 8 that "The Graphic problem in SMB2 is normal. You don`t see them on a crt with overscan. If you use the 2C03 "C" PPUs or the PPU from FC Titler, they don`t have them."
So now I need to look for an RC2C03C which is from one of the 2 Vs. Duck Hunt (MDS-DH) games ( http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/154922-s-video-for-nes/#entry1899891 (http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/154922-s-video-for-nes/#entry1899891) ) / RP2C03C (the PPU from the Sharp C1 Famicom Television), or an RC2C05-99 (Famicom Titler) LOL
And rt9342 says here http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?p=16119&sid=87ab44f9a7d2257dffc05eb970340123 (http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?p=16119&sid=87ab44f9a7d2257dffc05eb970340123) "I recommend trying to find an RP2C03C, as opposed to the RC2C03B that usually comes with dual-monitor Playchoice boards. The "RC" version appears to have distortion in the last column of pixels, apparently sprite-related (at least mine does). Also I had some problems with the "RC" version in the top-loader NES, which I fixed by adding a pullup resistor." However my 5 x PlayChoice 10 boards all came with only RP2C03B, so I think he means that. The RC2C03B is from VS. Tennis / Vs. Battle City
Vs. Mahjang / Vs. Pinball (JAPAN) / Vs. Star Luster / Vs. Golf (Japan) / Vs. Duck Hunt (MDS-DH) / Vs. Tetris.
http://www.johnsarcade.com/nintendo_vs_ppu_info.php (http://www.johnsarcade.com/nintendo_vs_ppu_info.php)
Regards,
Alistair G.
Seem to remember seeing that there was a web page showing the 2 different revisions of the NES 2 (top loader) where an early one had 2 chips (can't remember which ones) and a later one only had one, it's driving me mad trying to remember, I think Drakon mentioned it? Anyone have a link to it?
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Quote from: Live_Steam_Mad on August 11, 2012, 03:16:41 PM
my NES is using the RF box for amping the Sync,
Not sure its an issue on the front loader, but on the top loader you have to lift pin 21 (csync on a rgb ppu) to keep it from picking up data line interference. I did not have to amp sync on the rgb nes's i've done, but I did lift the pin and use a .1uF cap and route it directly to composite pin of the scart cable or csync in of the Jrok.
So maybe you should try it and see.
Quote from: Live_Steam_Mad on August 11, 2012, 03:16:41 PM
Also I finally cracked the weak audio problem when you do the "stereo" mod. by making an audio amp PCB and it works great and causes no interference on the RGB picture, see ;-
Which circuit did you use exactly? HunterZ's preamp (http://www.sentex.ca/~mec1995/circ/preamp.htm)circuit or the NES circuit?
Quote from: Live_Steam_Mad on August 11, 2012, 03:16:41 PM
Seem to remember seeing that there was a web page showing the 2 different revisions of the NES 2 (top loader) where an early one had 2 chips (can't remember which ones) and a later one only had one,
Not sure if you're thinking of my page (http://www.game-tech.us/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Nes/NES-101Intro), but sounds more like you're thinking of the sns-101 where they combined the two ppus and cpu to one chip, they never did this with the top loader. Although the revised boards are missing one chip, the 139, and have a custom nintendo chip which is prolly combined 74hc368's etc at the controller input.
I show that off a bit in the PAL top loader teardown video (http://youtu.be/xTRyxJvXbAg).
Quote from: akaviolence on August 12, 2012, 01:27:11 AM
Which circuit did you use exactly? HunterZ's preamp (http://www.sentex.ca/~mec1995/circ/preamp.htm)circuit or the NES circuit?
I am using the "NES circuit" (a copy of what is in the NES RF box). I am using the exact schematic here (originally from Kevtris i.e. Kevin Horton) ;-
http://forums.benheck.com/viewtopic.php?p=340162&sid=f950113efd2c12115d966fffc0a7be18#p340162 (http://forums.benheck.com/viewtopic.php?p=340162&sid=f950113efd2c12115d966fffc0a7be18#p340162)
I copied all the components onto a perf. board and used the same ones as the schematic including the Philips 74HCU04N that I got from www.quarndon.co.uk (http://www.quarndon.co.uk) with a precision IC socket. The Transistor that I used was the 2SC1740 in TO92 package, NPN, hFE about 550, labelled "C1740 E N" (E= Emitter, N=NPN) that I got from www.littlediode.com (http://www.littlediode.com) via Ebay.
It now has the "Triangle wave / Samples / White Noise" channel (only managed to solder up one circuit yet) just as loud as the mono audio. BTW there is no overmodulation distortion with this circuit, the audio sounds great through headphones.
Best of all I get NO video noise or picture interference or jail bars at all on my 14" TV or IN76 projector, even with the new audio perf. board working. So now audio and video are perfect as they can be made.
Quote from: akaviolence on August 12, 2012, 01:27:11 AM
Not sure if you're thinking of my page (http://www.game-tech.us/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Nes/NES-101Intro). Although the revised boards are missing one chip, the 139, and have a custom nintendo chip which is prolly combined 74hc368's etc at the controller input.
It was a picture very much like the one on your web page of the NES 2, and Drakon (I think) was mentioning it. Your web page is very good indeed though, and will do nicely! Thanks!
Regards,
Alistair G.
There is no real fix for jailbars except to obscure them by making the image less sharp which is really a cosmetic trade off. S-video depending on your encoder might actually produce better looking video than pure RGB for this reason. It's also worth noting that the AV Famicom also produces them in spite of claims made by some users here to the contrary.
If you have a stable image then the problem isn't going to be with how your sync is processed before the encoder. Think you can get a good photo of the interference you are seeing?
My original setup used an AD725 though while soldering all the components I somehow damaged the crystal producing a good picture but with noticeable diagonal interference. It was the most noticeable in the red powerup orbs in Ninja Gaiden 2 which sure sounds a lot like your issue.
You don't need to pull ground near the cart slot if it's inconvenient. You can take it anywhere along the perimeter of the board or inside the RF box, just test for continuity. I wound up soldering right at the original regulator for vcc/ground in my first toaster since it was closer to other points of interest. The ground point in your photo is one of the legs of that large electrolytic capacitor. Shouldn't hurt anything to use it but you do have other grounds available.
You may find that you don't need that cap on the sync line when the new encoder shows up.
I always put a 68pf ceramic cap between pin 24 and pin 20 (gnd) of the PPU so you may want to consider that if you haven't done so already. The original arcade hardware contains it.
On my NES using the Moosmann RGB amp, I have the ground for the amp going to the ground of the NES PCB (not in the RF box), and the +5V for the amp coming from the +5V on the NES PCB on the far right pin of the NES's Cartridge slot very close to the RF box, like you have skips, as I mentioned above.
BUT the ground for the Composite Sync Ground (i.e. pin 17 of my SCART that plugs into my TV, which is "Composite video ground" (i.e. SCART pin 20's ground) is connected to NES ground, NOT to the amp. ground (since the Moosmann amp is a noisy source for ground). That give me a picture with no noise. However when I connected Comp Video Ground into the Moosmann amp ground it was interference crazy on the picture (wavy lines, poor contast, etc).
So since you are using an encoder skips, that would be the equivalent of (I suppose) running just one wire (i.e. NOT phono lead with 2 conductors) from your amp to your Encoder (for Composite Sync) and then using the NES ground for the Composite Sync Ground, i.e. a single wire connecting the JROK Comp. Sync Ground (inside the JROK) to the NES ground!
And the same for the Green Ground (since I have Green Ground on my SCART plug connected to NES ground, NOT to the Moosmann amp. ground (since again the Moosmann amp is a noisy source for ground). So again you would have to run just one wire from your amp to your Encoder (for Green) and then using the NES ground for the Green Ground, i.e. a single wire connecting the JROK Green Ground (inside the JROK) to the NES ground!
A little daft maybe but might solve the interference problem? Just a thought!
Or wire it like I did and then use an RGB SCART to S-Video / Component converter! And maybe use a revision 4 NTSC NESC like I did? Since I have absolutely no picture noise.
BTW I am using the RF box to amplify Composite Sync from pin 21 of my PPU, my pin 21 of PPU is NOT lifted, the Composite Video (now Composite Sync instead) output from the RF box goes direct to pin 20 on the SCART plug of the NES (Composite Video In to TV). My PPU is RP2C03B.
I have Green Ground (pin 9) of NES SCART plug (i.e. the SCART plug I have wired up to my NES temporarily for these tests) going direct to NES PCB ground. Also I wired up the PPU Green to the amp. IN (green), and Green OUT of amp. directly to pin 11 of SCART plug (Green UP to TV).
All my connections are direct, no resistors or capacitors. Only my RGB switching pin on my SCART plug has a resistor going into it.
I need to give pin 16 of my NES's SCART plug at least 1V in order to switch my 14" TV to RGB mode (then you get 3 green dots on the OSD briefly, indicating RGB mode). So I have +5V coming from amp going into 75 Ohm resistor then into SCART pin 16 of SCART plug.
I haven't seen any jail bars or white borders yet on this 14" TV. Sharpness on the TV seems to be disabled (set at medium) in RGB mode. Colors are vibrant, whites are bright white, blacks are black.
On an RP2C03B (batch no. 8L4 18, with heatsink present, I just sold it to Martin Larsen in Denmark, one of two I had with this same batch number), this chip showed faint jail bars on blues and oranges in SMB1 but only on my IN76 projector, but none on black backgrounds when contrast was 50 per cent and brightness at 64 per cent, and with lamp on high power mode.
My PPU socket has a 68pF cap between ground and pin 24 PPU.
The background hiss on the mono sound isn't perfect but it's really pretty good and there's no buzzing. Background hiss on CPU channel (only done one audio amp circuit yet) is a bit more but I just realised today that I have wired the audio amp's ground into the Moosmann amp ground (it was convenient) and forgot about the Moosmann amp's Ground noise also may be affecting the audio background slight noise!
BTW I had a Sony PSX (model 7500, UK PS1, a chipped console and I play only NTSC USA games on it) with a herringbone pattern problem on the colors on the screen but only on the RGB and S-Video connections, composite seems to be entirely free of it, when viewed on my Infocus IN76 projector. For RGB I had two third-party PSX RGB cables and for S-Video I was trying an RGB SCART to S-Video converter and I had three standard S-Video to S-Video cables.
So I went andbought a genuine Sony PS3 to S-Video cable and it gave me a perfect NTSC S-Video picture on my PSX (PS1) when viewed on my IN76 projector . I threw away the two bad RGB cables LOL Needless to say the non-genuine Sony brand cables were all the ones at fault!
Then I discovered 2 out of 3 of my cheap S-Video to S-Video cables were bad (again herringbone patterns on the colors on S-Video input) but one was perfect, so I threw the bad ones away.
So also watch out for bad cables causing diagonal interference patterns / noise.
I have the same diagonal lines on S-Video problem on my early NTSC SNES and just tore apart my cheap 3rd party cable last night to see if I can solder up directly to the sockets with my own thicker wire, shielded with turkey foil, and see if the picture is perfect on my pj. My NTSC SNES mini (JR) has a way sharper Composite picture than my large SNES, both have no noise on Composite Video. I know my pj can give a perfect picture without any diagonal lines on colors on NTSC S-Video as it now does with my PSX and my Pioneer DVR-LX60D HDD/DVD recorder (now that I threw away the cheap bad cables).
UPDATE: OK I got to the bottom of the problem with the diagonal lines on S-Video... Found out that the LX60D and PSX both give black and white picture on Composite input when using S-Video, which is correct, BUT MY OLD LARGE NTSC SNES DOES NOT, it has color on the Composite input and diaginal lines on the S-Video (Color). Conclusion - my SNES revision is a bad design and perfect S-Video is NOT possible from it (model 001 (full sized / old SNES) (SNS-CPU-RGB-01, Copyright 1994, this is a USA model Super NES) (genuine Nintendo). The chip in it that is the RGB / SVideo encoder is the Rohm "S-RGB A BA6596F" with "507 179" date / batch code on it. BTW I'm currently modding my SNES JR for S-Video. UPDATE just done it and darn it the SNES JR has exactly the same bad diagonal lines in S-Video, and appears in color in Composite when the TV only has the S-Video lead into it, exactly the same as my large SNES.
Regards,
Alistair G.
SKIPS: Your tv may be different, but I had to use a sync cleaner to get the Jrok to work properly on my lcd tv.
Here's a vid I did on how I put one together:
http://youtu.be/gc9t04GMUeQ (http://youtu.be/gc9t04GMUeQ)
What encoder are you using?
Sound comes from the CPU, but it is still a good sign since its normal to not get vid without an amp.
Hi, I have A/V Famicom with PlayChoise 10 chip and now I like to solder RGB cable to my console. So can you tell me the best cable, which I solder to famicom and cable at the other end would have a scart.
And what is good quality SCART to Component converter?
XRGB 3 is very expensive and I think if something cheaper converter make same quality?
Where I can buy best quality 40-pin IC socket?
Can I just cut RGB Pins out of socket, so they arent then connected to my PCB?
I dont like to make stereo mod, so how I can sync video and audio, if I use some RGB to Component transcoder? I think then video have some lag, versus audio?
Quote from: Europemodder on August 17, 2012, 09:39:22 AM
[ ]Where I can buy best quality 40-pin IC socket?
[ ]
I dont like to make stereo mod, so how I can sync video and audio, if I use some RGB to Component transcoder? I think then video have some lag, versus audio?
For the "best" 40-pin socket, you need a "Precision" IC socket, also known as "Turned Pin" socket, I bought mine from Ebay, get the ones with Gold plated Beryllium Copper Alloy pins like I did. Make sure the PPU legs are ALL dead straight and parallel to the pins before pushing the PPU into the socket.
If you want to connect through a HDTV there will be a 40+ ms lag from the video processing IC's. The TV compensates for this in it's audio processing circuitry. However if you go through a Transcoder without audio inputs then the video will lag and the audio will be ahead. So you can use an AV amplifier with "Audio Delay" setting to compensate for this if needed. To be honest I don't think the delay is really that noticeable (when I go through an RGB SCART to S-Video converter using my SNES anyway).
Regards,
Alistair G.
http://www.partco.biz/verkkokauppa/images/tuotekuvat/p/p40l-large.jpg (http://www.partco.biz/verkkokauppa/images/tuotekuvat/p/p40l-large.jpg)
I think this looks good, what you think?
yup Europemodder that will work.
Quote from: Europemodder on August 17, 2012, 08:03:43 PM
http://www.partco.biz/verkkokauppa/images/tuotekuvat/p/p40l-large.jpg (http://www.partco.biz/verkkokauppa/images/tuotekuvat/p/p40l-large.jpg)
I think this looks good, what you think?
Looks very like the one I used. You can see the Gold plated inner part on the Beryllium Copper Alloy pins. Should work perfectly for the NES RGB mod. The PPU will be a nice press fit without being too easy or too hard to press in (not loose or tight). At least it is in my Turned (Round) Pin (Precision) socket. Very strong socket pins, easy to solder. 40 pins, 1/10 inch spacing, and a good number of heat resistant plastic cross braces for strength (rigidity).
Regards,
Alistair G.
Now I need to get my pc10's video output to amplified and I like to use the ncs2553 chip.
Can somebody send building schematic to me?
There is very limited place to get needed component, so I like to ask if somebody have any woking extra RGB amp available, then I can buy complete circuit to me, if somebody can ship it to Finland.
Then I can just solder it to my famicom.
There's a couple application diagrams in the datasheet (http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/354835/ONSEMI/NCS2553.html).
Quote from: Europemodder on August 18, 2012, 05:21:17 AM
Now I need to get my pc10's video output to amplified and I like to use the ncs2553 chip.
That chip, according to the datasheet posted by akaviolence, is SOIC (i.e. Surface Mount) only. Good luck in soldering such a small chip with such closely spaced legs. I find it a hassle. So I like to solder only to discrete components and DIL chips unless forced to. Would you consider making the Moosmann amplifier like I am using? I made mine on a PCB 1 inch x 3 inches, for all 3 amp's. Works wonderfully, no noise or jail bars, basically, at least in my experience with NES Rev. 4 (NTSC) and RP2C03B. Full instructions and pictures on making it are here ;-
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fplayoffline.wordpress.com%2Fmod%2Fnesrgb%2F (http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fplayoffline.wordpress.com%2Fmod%2Fnesrgb%2F)
http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1592.msg30775#msg30775 (http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1592.msg30775#msg30775)
...see earlier pages of this topic for complete explanations on the whole RGB modification. Just about every possible info. is in this topic.
Regards,
Alistair G.
Thanks Alistair.
I just readed whole topic.
Is anybody here tryed IC CXA2075 Encoder on RGB NES?
Quote from: Europemodder on August 18, 2012, 10:31:48 AM
Thanks Alistair.
I just readed whole topic.
Is anybody here tryed IC CXA2075 Encoder on RGB NES?
Yup, here is my comparison video (http://youtu.be/JRsOTzLDqC4) with that chip.
The big surprise was power draw, 100mA! Too much extra draw for the NES if you ask me...
Hi akaviolence,
I check your video, but you have nes-101 top loader and my version is rev. 2 AV Famicom.
If I understand right, there can be very different result on different revision and models of NES.
Drakon told that cxa1645 is very good picture and cxa2075 is the best, if I like to make good picture, without jailbars.
About Power draws, if I play long time using cxa2075, is there too much heat?
I can understand written English much better than in the video.
Choice of encoder is not going to change the jailbars but choice of video output will. Drakon uses additional components to blur the video obscuring the jailbar interference combined with s-video which already shows it significantly less than pure RGB. AV Famicom shows jailbars just like any toaster does.
I thought the console was going to turn off on me when testing the cxa2075m, it was acting weird, but the only thing I could blame was power draw of that chip. I was only going to use it for an rgb amp, but since I found the njm2667 and ncs2553 amps were cheaper and drew much less power I didn't use the Sony. I may use it on a different console if I ever want to output svideo, but it's not likely since component is so much better.
I think Salamander is right and the jailbars are just a problem with the ppu itself and everything done to get rid of them has really only been a way to mask or hide them. That's not to say it doesn't work, if I had svid out then i'd mask them if I could as well.
Maybe I just make Moosmann amplifier then. I check schematic and it seems to be easy to solder.
Jrok's V4.1 Encoders NTSC price is $81.00 and Shipping and handling to Europe $41.00, so Total is $122.00 USD.
If there is somebody from Europe with available extra Jrok Encoder, please told me, so I dont need to buy it from USA.
If you're in Europe you have easy access to SCART so you should really be considering RGB over Component. That being said, for about the same amount of money you could buy one of these...
http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/ProductsList.html (http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/ProductsList.html)
I use one in my AV Fami and it's an extremely nice kit.
(http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx199/slagmarble/DSCN0677.jpg)
Salamander, I like to capture my playing and there is no European SCART on capture card devices, thats why I need component to my Famicom.
How easily this F-LABO is to install? If I order it with Multi AV and use it with Wii Multi AV to Component cable then.
The hardest thing to do is really desoldering the stock PPU. If you lift a trace on the AV Fami you could do some serious damage to the board. The kit itself is very straightforward with the left hand side being responsible for sound and the right for video. You could just skip the sound portion entirely and cut down the number of components you need to worry about. If you take your time and have decent soldering skills it should not be difficult at all.
The full f-labo kit, shown by salamander, is great if you want svid and composite, but using the sony chip especially the 2075 will increase power draw too much for little to no gain. An external rgb to component converter will most likely hide any jailbars and the ncs2553 amp can be made and installed for cheap if you do it yourself. I know its SMD, but really soic-8 is much easier than you think, I have plenty of experience with them of course, but I can easily use a 2mm flat tip and push solder to two legs at a time and never bridge them, the key is a clean board and lots of flux. The njm2667 amp, mooseman as you call it, can be made with all through hole components, and some ppl will sell you a bare pcb designed for the circuit, including me. I've heard the 2667 is not longer available at Mouser, may be the case in other retailers too, but I think the 2668 is basically the same thing and would work fine, but I haven't tried it since I switched to the 2553 with much less components.
As far as PPU removal:
I recently found a super easy way to get DIP chips out.
I use a cheap weller soldering iron with a 2mm chisel tip <- important, trust.
When desoldering I turn it all the way up.
My solder sucker is the cheapest POS you can import on ebay, like $3, you can see it in a bunch of my youtube vids.
Watch this one (http://youtu.be/X0_peGRCB14) @ 1:50 minutes, that's exactly how I do all DIP chips.
It's super easy and quite fast and not too hard on the hands and fingers once you get used to it.
Just don't yank 'em out till you're sure the pins move freely, I use the soldering iron to make sure they are free and they usually either move freely right away or 'click' off that last little bit of solder and then are free.
If it still needs coaxing i'll add more solder and try it again.
Watch out for the power and grounded pins, they usually aren't thermal pads and require more heating time to melt the solder, but you'll see it happen or if you have enough force on the iron the pin will move.
Also, you're not likely to encounter lead free solder on any NES stuff but if you do add some leaded to the mix, it will help greatly when working with it!
BTW those power and grounded pins are the reason hot air can ruin a board, it takes too much time to melt them and by that time the board has warped badly and if you're unlucky like me, a whole quarter sized area will lift and possibly explode in to your eye balls! Yeah it happened!
Too bad I wasn't recording at the time, epic 'oh shit' throw stuff and run away reaction!!
And you will start burning and lifting traces etc and you don't want that.
So, to get around that I started sucking the solder out of the pwr and gnd pins before I used the hot air, worked better and faster. But to instal a socket or eprom I had to drill out each pad because using hot air to do it is even harder!
If I remove PC10 Chip using heat gun, I got chip nicely removed and PlayChoice motherboard maybe get ruin. But its not problem, because I dont need PlayChoice motherboard anywhere.
Then I cut all original PPU legs off and I can heat the legs off one by one, using Hakko 936 Soldering Station and cheap POS.
I only need to order good chisel tip, never used this tip previously.
There is 1,2mm and 2,4mm tips, but I dont see any 2mm, its better if its too small or big?
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_nkw=900m%20chisel%20tip&_sop=15&_clu=2&_fcid=70&_localstpos&_stpos&gbr=1 (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_nkw=900m%20chisel%20tip&_sop=15&_clu=2&_fcid=70&_localstpos&_stpos&gbr=1)
And I found same POS which you use, so I order this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Antistatic-Desoldering-Pump-Sucker-Solder-Irons-Removal-Remover-Tool-/221052532667?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3377c1f7bb (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Antistatic-Desoldering-Pump-Sucker-Solder-Irons-Removal-Remover-Tool-/221052532667?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3377c1f7bb)
I ask my local store, if they can found any BC33725 transistor to me.
Mooseman maded good schematic, so I can easily solder BC33725 myself, if they can find one to me.
Can you compare ncs2553 amp and njm2667. I checked many of your videos, but I understand text better, because Im not learned english so much time.
little offtopic:
I have EasyCap, and I got clear picture on PS1, PS3, Xbox 360 using composite, but when I connect NTSC Famicom, NTSC or PAL NES, I got little vertical lines on normal and golden RCA cables,
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/8186/linesod.png (http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/8186/linesod.png)
You guys maybe know why only NES consoles make this lines?
I don't see this lines on my TV, only if I capture NES, but my other consoles doesnt do that.
I try to change Color settings, but brightness, contrast, hue or saturation doesnt remove them.
@akaviolence - I agree the 2075 is not worth messing with. The kit comes (came?) with a 1645 which should draw significantly less current. I thought your comparison video was well done by the way.
Just putting out there that THS7314 is yet another option for an amp.
Yeah from what I could tell the ths7314 is almost identical to the 2553, but 3x more expensive.
Maybe it can be found in a DIP package? Mouser has only soic8 of each.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TEXAS-INSTRUMENTS-THS7314DG4-AMP-VIDEO-3CH-SDTV-SMD-SOIC8-/260963868229?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item3cc2a89e45 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TEXAS-INSTRUMENTS-THS7314DG4-AMP-VIDEO-3CH-SDTV-SMD-SOIC8-/260963868229?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item3cc2a89e45)
Its not very expensive, only £3.95
Quote from: akaviolence on August 21, 2012, 01:08:58 AM
The njm2667 amp, mooseman as you call it, can be made with all through hole components, and some ppl will sell you a bare pcb designed for the circuit, including me.
Moosmann AMP doesnt use any njm2667 chip, or did I understand something wrong?
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fplayoffline.wordpress.com%2Fmod%2Fnesrgb%2F (http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fplayoffline.wordpress.com%2Fmod%2Fnesrgb%2F)
If I use ncs2553 chip, is the LM1881 still needed?
Sorry, yeah the mooseman is the transistor amp, I was thinking of the 'n64' amp.
All I know is I needed a sync cleaner to get the pc10 to work with the Jrok.
I haven't tested with other encoders, but I don't think different rgb amps with make any difference.
Quote from: Europemodder on August 17, 2012, 09:39:22 AM
Hi, I have A/V Famicom with PlayChoise 10 chip and now I like to solder RGB cable to my console. So can you tell me the best cable, which I solder to famicom and cable at the other end would have a scart.
For RGB video cable I just used some cheap PVC covered wire off Ebay made from 7 strands of 0.2mm, tin coated copper. No shielding on any of my video or power or ground wires. I have about 1 metre length coming out of my NES on several wires, for R,G,B, Composite Sync, +5V (for pin 16, via 75 Ohm resistor, for switching TV to RGB mode, and also for Moosman amp), Ground (for Moosman amp), they all go to a SCART plug for my NES (that I am using from a cheap SNES RGB SCART cable that I ripped apart). Then I plug the SCART plug into my SCART socket on my 14" Sony TV.
For Composite Sync Ground, a wire comes out of my SCART plug, and goes to NES Ground (NOT to Moosman amp. ground, the amp. has a noisy ground).
For Green Ground, a wire comes out of my SCART plug, and goes to NES Ground (again NOT to Moosman amp. ground, the amp. has a noisy ground).
I am not grounding Red or Blue.
Picture is perfect, basically. No noise, no jailbars, whichever room I am in, or whether I connect it to my 29" Sony, or IN76 projector.
The only shielded cable I used so far was a double one for my 2 CPU sound channels.
It's my non-modded SNES and modded SNES JR that I have the picture problems with (S-Video, diagonal lines). My Sony PSX UK model 7500 and Pioneer LX60D give me a perfect S-Video picture (on NTSC and PAL respectively, since my PSX is chipped and I play exclusively NTSC USA games on it).
Quote from: Europemodder on August 17, 2012, 09:39:22 AM
Can I just cut RGB Pins out of socket, so they arent then connected to my PCB?
I dont like to make stereo mod, so how I can sync video and audio, if I use some RGB to Component transcoder? I think then video have some lag, versus audio?
You cut the Composite PPU out by cutting the legs at the tops of the legs close to where the legs meet the PPU body. Use a Tamiya Modeller's Side Cutter or similar, like I did. That leaves a load of legs sticking out of the PCB. Now heat the rear of the PCB, at the bottom of the leg where the join is to the PCB, with a 2mm single oval faced bit with a little fresh solder on it, and a 50W iron (I use Antex TCS50 and this bit). Then grab hold of the top of the leg on the component side of the board, with pliers and pull gently. Legs will come out easily. Except the ones in a group that are all grounded together like the RGB etc. which take more attempts. Do not heat for more than about 10 seconds. If it doesn't come out, let it cool and then try again. Waggle the pliers if needed, when pulling.
Then use a 0.7mm drill (cheapest ones, pack of 10 on Ebay) in a Swivel Head Pin Vice and drill out the hole that gets filled in by the solder, where the leg used to be. Drill all 40 holes. Now you are ready to install the new PPU socket. Make sure to remember to insulate holes 14,15,16 (and any others like pin 21 if you are going to lift it from the PCB), and remember to cut short pins 14,15,16 on the bottom of the PPU socket and solder wires to each of them for the RGB output to the amp.
Why don't you like the stereo mod?
Regards,
Alistair G.
Quote from: Live_Steam_Mad on August 22, 2012, 05:37:07 AM
Why don't you like the stereo mod?
I downloaded NES Stereo mod sample music, but it doesnt feel so nice on my headphones. Hard to explain, but this is just my opinion.
Quote from: Live_Steam_Mad on August 22, 2012, 05:37:07 AM
Make sure to remember to insulate holes 14,15,16 (and any others like pin 21 if you are going to lift it from the PCB), and remember to cut short pins 14,15,16 on the bottom of the PPU socket and solder wires to each of them for the RGB output to the amp.
I will lift 21 from the PCB and use .1uF cap between 21 pin and Jrok Sync input. This can not be a bad idea ::)
But akaviolence needed a sync cleaner to get the pc10 to work with the Jrok.
I just get all needed parts to make Moosmann AMP, but maybe I still need to get LM1881, becauseI like to use Jrok.
I got a little contradictory information...
Today I got an RGB modded top loader to work perfect with the ba6594af component encoder, same chip used in some snes consoles, this is awesome news for me since the Jrok is too expensive and too big.
Video (http://youtu.be/v1a7GTTWclg)
Hi,
This BA6594AF + LM1881 + NCS2553 set looks perfect and its very small overall.
Is there any way to make clear schematic to me?
I mean like this,
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/moosmann/electronic/famiamp.png)
I thought you wanted to stay away from surface mount chips?
Anyway, the circuit is posted on the sega-16 forum thread about the chip, here (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?20732-Easy-SNES-SFC-YUV-component-video!).
I plan to layout a pcb just for installing into to nes front and top loaders. It will have a socket for the rgb ppu and headers to insert into a socket where the composite ppu was.
Any interest?
My friend have skills to install surface mount chips, so its not anymore problem.
If you can make layout with this 3 needed chip and other items, It would really help me out.
And my console is AV Famicom from Japan. I use socket with RP2C03B.
Never heard of frying a PPU like that before, something you would consider selling broken? You have a few options to remove the heatsinks of which the easiest is to take a pair of needlenose pliers and squeeze the fins together until it pops off the chip. If you want to clean up the epoxy from there a hair dryer and the edge of a knife or razorblade can chip off the big chunks. Don't go crazy with the heat so the chip gets nuclear you just want it hot enough to loosen the bond the epoxy has on it. A magic eraser will remove the remaining residue to get your PPU nice and pretty (do the epoxy removal with the chip socketed outside the system).
Quote from: skips on August 24, 2012, 07:25:52 AM
Lastly I was wondering how you guys went about removing the heatsinks from your PPU's? Since I might have a dead PPU to practice on I am thinking of trying it instead of cutting the case. I just didn't want to risk breaking my PPU the first time.
I used heat and a sharp craft knife (Tamiya Fine Craft Knife, 30 degree blade point with interchangeable blades). I used a 1.6KW hair dryer and it has a 2" x 1" diffuser on it and I set it to medium air flow and maximum heat and put a pair of old cotton pajamas on the kitchen floor and put the PPU onto the cloth and then blasted one end of the PPU with the hair dryer for 30 seconds, no more. The cloth of the pj's grips the legs of the PPU automagically and stops it moving. Then I tried gently pulling the heatsink with large pliers. After blasting both ends a few times with the hairdryer, the heatsink came off fairly easily. But then I wanted a clean chip (for aesthetic reasons LOL) so I could admire it for a while! So then came where I had to scrape the heatsink adhesive off the top of the PPU chip itself.
So then I pulled some cloth over the rest of the PPU to stop me getting burned (WOW it gets HOT maybe over 120C or so I imagine, it's nearly burning me through the cloth LOL, don't wanna risk any more than 30 seconds on the hairdryer unless I damage the PPU) and then scraped the black stuff with a Tamiya knife.
It's an Epoxy that is on the PPU between the chip and the PC10 heatsink, as supplied from Nintendo. When I tried to remove the adhesive off an RP2C03 with no heatsink, it was impossible to scrape off without heat. Epoxy melts or at least goes much softer with heat (at about 140C I think I remember)
Don't worry about digging into the ceramic too much, it's impossible to do so with the force you could create, the legs on the PPU will bend long before you could dig in with enough force, and the blade would be blunt long before then as well. I found this out for myself (after much scraping of the Epoxy off the chip) that it doesn't matter how sharp a craft knife you use on the left and right sections of the RP2C03B, and the sharp blade becomes blunt towards the front end of the blade after about 10 minutes of heavy scraping, and there's sometimes only so much you can remove using the hairdryer and knife.
My 1st RP2C03B that I used was a bitch to clean, the Epoxy just wouldn't all come off, so then I just started scraping at it with a fresh blade in my Tamiya Fine craft knife on a cutting board. I attacked the hell out of it. The ceramic started to look shiny or metallic like in places almost as if I had removed the top layer of ceramic and exposed something underneath!
But I also discovered that sometimes the only way to remove the remnants on there is to use P400 grade Silicon Carbide abrasive sheet (used dry). After much sanding the remains finally started to slowly come off. The shiny areas of the ceramic where I thought I had damaged the surface just went back to being purple matt again and the epoxy showed up really well by going matt black. Then I realised that you cannot damage the surface at all with the P400, even the gold line and plus sign. All went well and I got off all of the remains of the epoxy and then cleaned with White Spirit and it looks like new again. The surface is very smooth to the touch, as the ceramic is extremely hard and resists the P400 grit almost completely. It was a good enough surface to accept the thermal pad on the heatsinks that I bought, the heatsinks never came off when the PPU is upside down in the NES and was warm.
On another PPU, one side the Epoxy came off without too much effort, after only a couple of tries of the hairdryer, but the stuff on the other end of the chip was layed on thick and gave me quite a lot of grief and it took much scraping and goes with the hairdryer, quite annoying. But I got there in the end, and got all of it off so the chip looks way better now. I bent a few PPU pins but they are easily straightened again. Moral is don't press too hard or move forwards / backwards too forcefully when scraping LOL.
Later EDIT: I used a thick bed blanket the second time around on my next PPU so that the legs didn't get bent hardly at all.
I show 3 pictures below showing the PPU 1) after it's scrape clean under heat 2) after I just attacked the heck out of it with the fresh sharp knife and 3) after it's had P400 Silicon Carbide on it and been cleaned up.
Also I had a thought that I clean every cart I buy with Isopropyl Alcohol on the contacts using cotton buds on plastic sticks, and I am plugging in old dirty chips into my nice clean new precision socket, so I thought that I should clean the legs of each PPU that I try. So I clean the insides of the legs with the same method and by putting the chip on a sheet of Aluminium whilst I am doing it, and then clean the outsides of the legs by placing the legs of the chip along the edge of the Alu. sheet so they don't get bent.
I chose to add my own heatsink to the PPU, since after playtesting for maybe 30 min's, the PPU without heatsink was rather hot, maybe a little under 60C, not burning my finger though but was very hot when I put my upper lip on it as a test (!). At least, a heatsink can't do any damage LOL.
Also I realised that the raised central hump that contains the die is NOT heatsinked at all ! It's only the 2 far left and right sides of the chip that had adhesive on that are heatsinked. How stupid. So the heatsink has very little surface area and is really touching in the wrong place. Doah.
Thus, I used 3 x smaller low profile replacement heat sinks, one mounted on the flat main die area in the middle, 2 either side of that. I used GPU RAM heatsinks that were suggested to me (these ones ;- http://tinyurl.com/3fbcx5l (http://tinyurl.com/3fbcx5l) ) and they had a thermal adhesive pad backing.
The RP2C03B has a space either side of the raised central (die) section, each space is 18mm long x 15mm wide. The die containing central section is 14mm square and is raised up about 1mm above the left and right sections.
The heatsinks I used are 6mm low profile Aluminium alloy heatsinks. In case anyone wants to buy them later on but can't find them when the Ebay link dies after 90 days, the description is "8 x GPU RAM VRM Heatsinks With Adhesive Thermal Tape" and "8 small heatsinks suitable for RAM, GPU's, games consoles, laptops, and other electronics to provide better cooling and reduce over-heating." "The heatsinks come with 3M adheisive thermal tape on the back, just peel and stick!" "The shape helps to quickly dissipate heat." "Made from aluminium alloy." "Each heatsink is approx 15x14mm and 6mm high."
"I use these on my ATI 5870's bare memory chips and they knock about 10C off at idle, and 20C at load!". These small heatsinks fit the RP2C03B just great.
There was an item code on the packet that showed it was from Deal Extreme ;-
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/aluminum-alloy-chipset-heatsinks-for-pc-memory-chips-8-hsk-set-15361 (http://www.dealextreme.com/p/aluminum-alloy-chipset-heatsinks-for-pc-memory-chips-8-hsk-set-15361)
The adhesive doesn't look like any thermal compound I am aware of (I know what the grey thermal pads look like on the PS2 for example), instead it looks just like thin servo tape (like from my RC models hobby). I cleaned the chip with Isopropyl Alcohol and I peeled the paper off the adhesive pads and stuck the heatsinks on, I used 3 of them to completely cover the chip (just about).
The adhesive is just like on servo tape (black glossy and extremely tacky, not like on the thermal pads in the PS2) so watch out and don't press them on just place them on until you are happy, otherwise repositioning is almost impossible. When you press them on they stick down very tenaciously and you can lift up the whole PCB by pulling up one heatsink. So I don't think that they will come off in the NES.
I am still a little worried about the heat and it being upside down on the "wrong" side of the board, in an unventilated small plastic box that is the NES, but there's little that I can do about that. I ran the NES for many hours and checked for lockups. No problems so far.
Pictures below in the link, to show the heatsinks and how far below the expansion port they come to. I can't tell whether the middle heatsink (the raised one on top of the die) is pressing against the plastic of the NES casing or not as I can't see it. I was hoping that I could see though the expansion port blanking plate but when I removed the big rectanglular lump of plastic off the bottom of the NES where the expansion port was (you just press in the sides and pull and the clips of it come off) there was still a small plate of plastic covering the port that could not be removed without cutting it off! And I can't see beyond it well enough to see the PPU properly. With the 3 heatsinks in place on my RP2C03B the NES PCB does seem to sit properly in the casing and allow the screws to be screwed in properly so I'm fairly happy with it now.
Note in the pictures how I have separated the middle heatsink from the left and right one so as to allow air to circulate fully between them.
http://picasaweb.google.com/LiveSteamMad/RGBNESHeatsinks (http://picasaweb.google.com/LiveSteamMad/RGBNESHeatsinks)
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Is there any problem if I use just the original heatsink, wihout removing it?
The combined height won't fit inside the AV Fami unless you either hack a chunk out of it or the case.
Post a pic of how your current setup looks? I do have a spare THS7314 on an SOIP to DIP8 board that with some 75ohm resistors would amp your color lines.
Alright so looking this over...
You must be sending +5v to the underside of the ultimarc board as the website suggests. You could send that to pin 9 instead since you have desoldered the db-15 connector. Are you positive no damage was done while desoldering/soldering to this board? I would try sending RGB straight off the PPU into the JROK first to see if it is producing a correct looking (but dim) image. If that's fine then it's got to be how the color lines were soldered to the amp probably on the output side.
Do you own a multimeter? If so try to work backwards testing for continuity between where you desoldered those screw down output terminals and the surface mount chip on the board. If you are really really stuck on this I wouldn't mind taking it on as a project. You could keep the most expensive components with you (PPU, JROK) since those would not be necessary to get this working if that's an issue.
Quote from: skips on August 29, 2012, 01:29:11 AM
The only thing I do not like this time around is the jail bars are in your face noticeable on blacks such as the start of Mario 2. It wasn't quite this bad the first time I attempted this mod however the first time it was on a CPU 10 board. Both the CPU 7 and 8 boards I have seem to give really strong jail bars. I do not have a CPU 10 board to try it on anymore unfortunately. I am going to try putting 220uf capacitors on the RGB lines coming out of the amp to see if that obscures the jail bars a bit. Pins 17 and 21 are lifted on the 8 board and lowered on the 7 bored. It did not seem to make a difference like it did on the 10 board. Ill probably keep working with this encoder and save the JROK for another neo-geo board ill be consolizing. The neo-geo would benefit more from the component video anyway. I have not given up completely on this yet. Thank you for the offer though. I want to see if I can get this done well myself before I pass it onto someone else. I am learning a lot from this project and despite it having some frustrating parts has been an overall fun experience. If I cant get it to how I want it ill probably pass it off to another eventually. Paid to much for the PPU to not get a working NES with S-video.
Might I suggest you use the NES CPU 04 board like mine (all you have to do is find one with serial no. below 1 million) and then mod it like I have fully described, then use the same J S Technology RGB SCART to S-Video converter and Moosmann amp that I do. I have no caps on the RGB lines. I use the NES RF box to amp the C-Sync.
I have no jail bars visible on blacks, and no noise or patterns or diagonal lines or any other picture flaw, and the picture is sharp. It's the same with each RP2C03B PPU that I tried. Looks like I got the right revision of NES LOL. The only glitch I have is the 2 short vertical blue lines in SMB 2 NTSC USA version, at the very right hand edge of the screen, which Markus tells me is caused by the RP2C03B itself and doesn't happen on the C1 or Titler PPU.
Pity I can't get decent S-Video from my large SNES, or RGB and S-Video and C-Sync modded SNES 2 (mini / Jr) ...I have diagonal lines on S-Video from both SNES's... But the SNES 2 Composite is sharp and it's RGB is fair, if not quite as sharp as the Composite output... RGB from my large SNES is blurred...
Regards,
Alistair G.
Quote from: skips on August 29, 2012, 03:42:05 AM
As for the SNES I wonder if that is a PAL thing? I dislike the US SNES design so I got a super Famicom awhile ago and filed the cart port to fit US carts. One of the first things I did with it was install s-video and audio left/right jacks. There are two things in this world I despise most with electronics, the proprietary multi video cables game consoles use and composite/RF video. I did this to all my game systems. Anyway the S-video on it looks better than using the official Nintendo S-video cables via the multi-video port. All I did was solder lines from the multi-video port to the s-video connector. Chroma and Luma are both running through 22ouf capacitors before going out to the port. It looks great on my old TV and with 0 interference. Have you tried 220uf capacitors?
Both my large SNES (SNS-CPU-RGB-01) and my SNES 2 (SNN-CPU-01) are NTSC USA models. I play only NTSC USA games on it. There are no 220uF caps in my DIY S-Video cable, I didn't know S-Video needed them. I'll try them and see what happens!
I have detailed my diagonal lines issue with my SNES's here ;- http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?126959-SNES-Jr-S-Video (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?126959-SNES-Jr-S-Video)
Regards,
Alistair G.
Well I tried adding a 220uF cap on each of the Luminance and Chrominance (7,8 of MultiAV into S-Video bare plug) and it made bog all difference. S-Video from both SNES's is still diagonally totally line-tastic on yellows and blues on the 29" TV (I'll test on the IN76 pj later on). This sucks big time :'(
I know it's not the TV or pj since both give me perfect pictures on the Pioneer LX60D in PAL 50Hz, my chipped UK PS1 and my chipped UK PS2 when playing NTSC USA games at 60Hz, via S-Video. If anyone has any contructive suggestions I'm be happy to hear from them.
Hey hang on a minute, I wonder if it's the color encoding... just remembered that my RGB SCART to S-Video converter is PAL encoded color output only, at both 50Hz and 60Hz. I can't remember what the PS1 and PS2 give out when on S-Video. If they are all PAL encoding and I only get lines on the 2 SNES's, then it maybe be NTSC color encoded S-Video that my TV and pj don't like. I'll test this and report back.
Regards,
Alistair G.
Quote from: skips on August 29, 2012, 08:06:47 AM
I think I have a US SNES sitting around somewhere. If I get time this weekend Ill drill some holes in the case and run an S-video port to the points on the AV connector and see how it goes. I wouldn't think there would be much of a difference between it and a super Famicom though. Ill do it both with caps and without caps and see how it goes.
Thanks Skips. I just tested ;-
1) Composite @ 50Hz 625 lines w/ PAL 4.43MHz
2) Composite @60Hz 525 lines w/ NTSC 3.58MHz
3) Composite @60Hz 525 lines w/ PAL 4.43MHz
4) S-Video @ 50Hz 625 lines w/ PAL 4.43MHz
5) S-Video @60Hz 525 lines w/ NTSC 3.58MHz
6) S-Video @60Hz 525 lines w/ PAL 4.43MHz
7) RGB SCART via adapter block w/separate sync (C-Video) @ 50Hz 625 lines
8 ) RGB SCART via adapter block w/separate sync (C-Video) @60Hz 525 lines
9) Component (sync on green) @ 50Hz 625 lines
10) Component (sync on green) @60Hz 525 lines
...all from my Pioneer LX60D DVD / HDD recorder, direct into my IN76 projector, and NONE of them gave me any diagonal lines. S-Video was perfectly line free. I'll have a look at both PS1 and PS2 next.
UPDATE: My chipped FAT UK model SCPH-30003 R PS2 has a perfectly diagonal line free picture via S-Video into my IN76 pj, with the genuine Sony S-Video PS3 cable, when playing USA 60Hz games, and always outputs with PAL encoding @ 4.43MHz but with 525 lines, @60Hz interlaced.
These games had a perfect picture in S-Video on my pj ;-
Burnout NTSC USA @60Hz
Colin McRae Rally 3 NTSC USA @60Hz
Colin McRae Rally 3 UK PAL @50Hz
Gran Turismo 3 NTSC USA @60Hz
Gran Turismo 4 NTSC USA @60Hz
Gran Turismo Concept UK PAL @50Hz
MotorStorm Arctic Edge NTSC USA @60Hz
Need For Speed Carbon UK PAL @50Hz
Network Startup Disc
OutRun (Remake) NTSC Japan @60Hz - but slight banding on the large blue sky
Pro Rally UK PAL @50Hz
Sega Rally 2 (2006) NTSC Japan @60Hz
Sega Rally Championship NTSC Japan @60Hz
Tomb Raider Anniversary UK PAL @50Hz widescreen
Tomb Raider Legend NTSC USA @60Hz widescreen
However in Colin McRae Rally 04 and 05, both 50Hz versions, in PAL, there were herringbone patterns everywhere, but the really wierd thing was when I tried Colin McRae Rally 03 in 50Hz in PAL, and GT Concept in 50Hz in PAL, and Need For Speed Carbon in 50Hz in PAL, there was a perfect picture! In Richard Burns Rally in 50Hz in PAL there was a clear screen (intro graphics) BUT full screen dither pattern at all times during the game!! All this played from a HDD via HDLoader v0.8c, and via S-Video. I tested them all twice to make sure. Need to check some more games... and my PS1...
UPDATE: Tried my PS1 in S-Video in nearly all my games, I get a perfect picture via S-Video on my pj at all times, when it's outputting 625 lines @50Hz in PAL 4.43MHz, or when it's outputting 525 lines @60Hz with NTSC color encoding at 3.58MHz.
OK this is weird... when I try my chipped PS1 UK model 7500 with the cheap 3rd party PSX RGB SCART cable that I have, I can only get the boot rom screen (Sony / PS logo) to appear on my pj (in 625 lines / 50Hz), I get NO in game picture at all no matter what game I try with it, either from my PAL PS1 games or my NTSC USA PS1 games. No matter where I get C-Video (for sync) from. Any idea what the heck is going on?
UPDATE: I think there are maybe 2 explanations for this... either my pj doesn't like the RGB from my PSX (even though it works perfectly with my Slim or Fat PS2 (with PS2 games) and Pioneer LX60D in RGB mode at 525 lines @60Hz or 625 lines @50Hz), or my PS1 mod chip is causing some problem.
At first I thought it was because maybe the PSX changes to Composite Sync when in RGB mode, but then again it hasn't got any "mode", it's giving out RGB ALL the time, same as the PS2 Slim and Fat, (except when PS2 is in Component), and PSX is giving out Composite Video at all times (I checked) in 576i or 480i, with all my PS1 PAL or NTSC USA games, so it can't be that causing it.
BTW, this made me realise that maybe the reason that I can't get a picture out of my RGB NES on my IN76 pj is because maybe my pj can't handle C-Sync in RGB mode, it maybe only accepts C-Video as sync in RGB, hence the reason for no picture (I have to use the RGB SCART to S-Video converter instead), it's maybe because the RGB PPU doesn't have C-Video anymore, only C-Sync instead.
The same thing does NOT happen on my Fat chipped PS2 UK model SCPH 30003 R with my PS2 games, I get an RGB SCART picture on all my PS2 games (either NTSC USA ones or PAL UK ones). Same with my Slim non-chipped PS2.
I can't test whether there is no picture from either my Slim unchipped PS2 or my Fat mod chipped PS2 in RGB with my PS1 NTSC games, since the Slim won't let me play NTSC USA games (because it's not chipped) even when softmodded to play PS2 backups via ESR patch (since I don't think you can ESR patch PS1 games?!), and the Fat PS2 will only let me read PS1 discs when I disable the mod chip, which then won't let me read games from another region (since it then acts like an unchipped PS2!). And I can't put PS1 games onto USB stick and try them in the Slim like I can do with PS2 games on the Slim, and I can't put PS1 games onto the HDD of the Fat PS2 since it uses the PS1 CPU for HDD access when you are in PS2 mode!
In addition I get NO picture from my pj when using the Fat chipped PS2 or Slim unchipped UK PS2 model SCPH-70003 in RGB mode when using PAL original PS1 discs, in either Component or RGB, when the game starts. I only get a picture in the boot screen logo and sometimes in a video before the game. However I get a Composite Video picture at all times with PAL PS1 discs in either my Fat or Slim PS2's. So PS2 is acting like my PS1 in this case. But of course I get a picture using PS2 games in Component and RGB.
I notice that the RGB picture from both PS1 and PS2 Phat is noticeably sharper than the S-Video picture (which is already pretty sharp).
Just ordered an original genuine Sony PS3 Component cable (compatible with PS2) from Amazon USA (it was 1/2 the price of the UK one) and will see how I get on with that, looking to hopefully get the sharpness of RGB that I get on the Fat PS2, but in Component on my PS2's.
UPDATE: Noticed that my chipped PS2 cannot be set to Component video out, only RGB (screen does not go green or alter at all when I change it to Component in the System Configuration menu), maybe because of the mod chip. BUT my UK unchipped Slim PS2 SCPH-70003 will freely change between RGB and Component, and my pj accepts Component from it very nicely.
RGB SCART from my PS2 Slim, taking C-Video as sync half way along the cable from the C-Video socket on the RGB cable, looks nearly perfect in 625 lines @50Hz with only sometimes faint diagonal lines on some colors, and totally perfect 525 lines @60Hz, and no noise or wavy lines , using the same cheap 3rd party RGB cable as I used with PS2 Fat. Not quite as sharp as the PS2 Fat though on RGB, about the same sharpness as S-Video from the PS2 Fat.
Component from my Slim is pretty nice in 625 lines @50Hz with only very faint diagonal lines on certain colors, but at 525 lines @60Hz has some problems with quite a bit stronger diagonal lines on some colors, but there is no noise or wavy lines, again using the same cheap 3rd party RGB cable as I used with PS2 Fat. However if I remove the C-Video from the socket half way along the RGB cable (RGB cable becomes Component in Component video mode on the PS2) then the 625 lines @ 50Hz picture's faint diagonal lines become noticeably more pronounced, and the 525 lines @ 60Hz picture becomes a diagonal line tastic picture, not good, even though my Pioneer LX60D gives me a perfect picture in Component on this pj using the same cables when in 525 lines @60Hz. Again this Slim via Component is not quite as sharp as the PS2 Fat was though on RGB, about the same sharpness as S-Video from the PS2 Fat.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Could be a jailbars fix?
http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=4713.msg117174#msg117174 (http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=4713.msg117174#msg117174)
Apparently works with Famicom composite so I wonder if PPU shielding could be applied to Playchoice PPUs with similar results?
Wow, finally solved the stupid diagonal lines and wavy vague lines problem on my PS1 / PS2 in RGB, it wasn't the cable, it was when I take Composite Video (pj needs C-Video to sync, i.e. separate sync) from a SCART adapter block that I have to use to get the signal into the projector. When I use the separate Composite Video from half way along the PlayStation RGB cable itself, I finally have a perfect RGB picture on the PSX!!
UPDATE: Oh dear, I can't use that above technique with the genuine Sony Component PS3 cable used as RGB cable since there is no Composite Video to tap off for Sync.
Now if only I could solve the SNES problem and all my consoles would be perfect LOL.
Regards,
ARG
Quote from: skips on August 30, 2012, 05:22:37 AM
Huh, I looked at that link Salamander posted and also noticed them saying that a 1uf capacitor between pin 40 and ground on the CPU could also clear up jailbars. What do you guys think?
Markus said here ;- http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=601&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=90&sid=32c4296994cfe0bd4294cd99a2adb685 (http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=601&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=90&sid=32c4296994cfe0bd4294cd99a2adb685) "I got an old Famicom last week and i see very much vertikal stripes lines.
To reduce the lines, lift Pin 21 from the PPU or disconnect the line from pin 21 to 2sc...transistor and solder the Video-Amp directly to the PPU. However, you always have some vertikal lines on some games (e.g. Bird Week), so please solder an 220uF electrolyt capacitor between PPU Pin 40 and GND. You also have to take the 5V for the Video Amp from PPU Pin 40 (...and 220uf capacitor) and not from an other 5V place from the PCB.
Solder an 220uF electrolyt capacitor without lift Pin 21 from the PPU or vice versa don`t make it 100% stripes free.
Greeting Markus"
...the 220uF electrolytic capacitor would have it's positive leg onto pin 40 of PPU (PPU pin 40 not lifted) and negative leg going to GND (which ground?!, pin 20 of PPU ? I assume if so that you do not lift pin 20 of PPU).
Markus also mentioned this at http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=2990.0 (http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=2990.0) where he said "The AV Famicom don`t have the vertikal stripes lines.
Only the old Famicom and NES2 have them. But the Problem is not the PPU.
Lift Pin 21 (Video, PPU-Chip) from the PCB and take the Amplifier like describted in the Nesdev-Forum from leonk.
http://darthcloud.da.funpic.org/img/bypass.html (http://darthcloud.da.funpic.org/img/bypass.html)
However, only lift Pin 21 don`t reduce the lines complete, you have to solder an 220uF Electrolyt Capacitor from PPU Pin 40 to GND. Take 5V for the Amplifier from the same Place from Capacitor (PPU Pin 40).
This works fine on an old Famicom 1989.
Greetings Markus"
Arasoi already tried this on his ;- http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1592.msg28786#msg28786 (http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1592.msg28786#msg28786) but it didn't do anything to the jail bars, but I he didn't say what revision his NES is (he is using RP2C03B).
Drakon also mentioned in a post to try connecting pin20 of PPU (ground) to the ground of the video amp, that finally completely removed the jail bars on his NES revision 6 and also removed the audio buzzing (only worked when he also had pin17 of PPU lifted and connected to the SCART ground).
Also I read here ;- http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=601&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=165 (http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=601&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=165) that "you need to add a 47uF - 100uF capacistor between PPU #22 (SYNC) and #20 (GND) <-- This is like magic and removes - if not all, most of the vertical bars. I've done this on several Famicoms with good result. Some machines give more jailbars then others and with the cap over #22-#20 they dissapear or become wery faint depending on how much interference there is." ...but actually PPU Pin22 is RESET http://jpx72.detailne.sk/modd_files/fc/avmod.htm (http://jpx72.detailne.sk/modd_files/fc/avmod.htm)
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Is there anybody who have RGB NES, XRGB and Hauppauge HD PVR?
I like to see, how XRGB work with HD PVR, if its installed using RGB NES.
just wondering as rgb on a nes/famicom seems to be the holy grail for rgb conversions, are their alternative methods, if you use a famicom/nes to snes adaptor for nes/famicom games on snes/sfc pluged via rgb to monitor or xrgb, will you get a good result, would this be acceptable solution than spending hundreds of US$ on ppu and frankenstien transplanting to a nes/famicom?
would their be difference in quality compared to the proper rgb nes ?
Quote from: imparanoic on October 19, 2012, 02:23:01 PM
just wondering as rgb on a nes/famicom seems to be the holy grail for rgb conversions, are their alternative methods, if you use a famicom/nes to snes adaptor for nes/famicom games on snes/sfc pluged via rgb to monitor or xrgb, will you get a good result, would this be acceptable solution than spending hundreds of US$ on ppu and frankenstien transplanting to a nes/famicom?
would their be difference in quality compared to the proper rgb nes ?
the problem with that is that those adapters use a nes on a chip. many games dont work at all on it, or they work poorly.
the day that someone comes out with a nes adapter or clone that actually has a seperate cpu/ppu, etc, it will be a viable option.
I have REV. 2 AV Famicom, its the best machine I think.
And My PlayChoice PPU is RP2C03B PPU. I have THS7314 RGB-Amplifier too.
I dont need stereo mod, I only like to get perfect component video.
Is there anybody who have time and interesting to finish this mod?
I can send this items to Europe/USA and somebody solder it -> send back to me.
And of course I will pay this work.
Quote from: skips on November 19, 2012, 07:28:56 AM
the diagram found at http://circuits.datasheetdir.com/331/CXA1645P-circuits.jpg (http://circuits.datasheetdir.com/331/CXA1645P-circuits.jpg) it shows pin 6 being something called SCIN or SIN-PULSE. I was wondering what this was and where does it come from?
SC is "Sub-Carrier", I believe. Normally in video terminology this is the color subcarrier information (encoded in SECAM, PAL, or NTSC) at 3.58MHz or 4.43MHz. Why it is an input to this chip I don't know. Unless it has something to do with video overlays (video titling, genlock, etc) for when the encoder is used in consumer video devices?
Regards,
Alistair G.
http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/138/nesdisksystem.jpg
Here is my setup (it is basically a Toploading NES DISK System )
RGB modded NES with car grade shiny black paint, Audio adjustment knobs in back, SCART RGB cable, extra sound channel mod
HES Unidapter - cart slots for NES, Famicom and Pal carts.
Famicom System with write mod, FDloader cable for writing my own disks.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note using Tapatalk 2 (THE BEST forum app)
Quote from: skips on November 19, 2012, 12:14:00 PM
So that means using a 3.579545 MHz oscillator (http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=3.579545+MHz+oscillator (http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=3.579545+MHz+oscillator)) I should be able to provide it with what it needs then?
Yes, it just dawned on me that it appears to need the SC reference signal in order to generate Composite and S-Video in NTSC video output for TV's with only Composite or S/Video inputs, when coming from a console that has only RGB. Euro TV's can of course accept RGB directly and don't need that chip.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Hey my friends.
Since this thread helped a lot discovering a bunch of methods to prevent jail bars, I'll post here because I REMOVED COMPLETELY THE JAIL BARS.
It's a fix posted by a user here in this same thread pointing to another forum. The fix in relation was to remove jail bars on famicom system while doing the AV composite mod.
Well, I used that self adhesive copper tape and it worked.
(http://i.imgur.com/Jg5iel.jpg) (http://imgur.com/Jg5ie)
(http://i.imgur.com/agQKOl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/agQKO)
As you can see only scanlines no jail bars. Compare to the images Drakon posted of his NES while it still had jail bars.
No jail bars on the wheels.
Enjoy :)
When you shielded that PPU did you ground the shielding? If so, did you protect the trace that runs on top of the chip or was it fine grounded?
Grounded it.
And it won't touch the solder points under the PPU because of the socket.
BTW: swapped all the cables today for shielded cables and guess what? Everything is even worst!
So all I can say now:
1. jail bars are caused by interference.
2. It runs via Green wire.
3. Don't ground anything else on the shield of the jailbars will be worst.
We got to find the source of the interference to get ride of it.
Quote from: skips on January 06, 2013, 06:41:53 PM
I did some tinkering around today and decided to redo my whole RGB mod with a version 7 board I had lying around. The version 7 had jail bars worse than any board revision I have performed this mod to (I have used a 4, 6, and 10 for various friends). I combined all the methods of reducing jail bars I have found in this thread so far and the results were stunning. Here is everything I have done to this specific board in regards to reducing jail bars.
- Powered amp off the PPU
- Ground PPU Power with 220uf Capacitor
- Ground CPU Power with .1uf Capacitor (ground to outer edge! Grounding to the ground pin on the CPU seems to cause massive slowdown in areas that normally don't have it)
- Do not connect pins 17 or 21 to the Board (keep them lifted like the RGB pins)
- Socketed, shielded, and grounded PPU with copper tape
- Socketed, shielded, and grounded CPU with copper tape
Shielding the CPU seemed to do A LOT more for my version 7 board than it did on the version 10 I initially tried this on. It was well worth the effort to socket and shield the CPU on this revision of the NES hardware. I also tried a few different encoders based of both the Sony CXA1645 and the AD724. On the few different TV's I tested all these on all the CXA1645 encoders had at least some faint trace of jail bars. The AD724 encoders seemed to show no jail bars (unless you cranked brightness all the way up) on all my smaller CRT TV's or HDTV's. They did show slightly on my larger 63' Projection TV but even on that beast they are almost nonexistent (its a picky and sensitive bastard).
I also wonder if socketting and shielding the rest of the IC's would do anything to reduce jail bars? Not sure I want to try that as its time consuming and they are already almost nonexistent. I have included a picture of my NES board this time so you can see my novice modding skills!
Wow! Awesome. That's really good how we are getting the best out of these various revisions of NES now. Great work.
Also, by putting 3 small heatsinks on my PPU, I think I'm electro-magnetically shielding it as well LOL.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Quote from: skips on January 14, 2013, 11:55:32 AM
Answered my question. The PPU is in fact going, I started having other major issues. It goes for about 5 minutes and the video becomes garbled. Guess I will just have to wait an hope a PPU or play choice board gets put up on eBay for cheap.
After a couple of PPU's going bad on this forum I wonder if it's heat that's doing it. The PC10 board has a heatsink, but hardly anyone seems to use a heatsink on their NES's RGB PPU except me and very few others LOL.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
PPUs broken mostly non-observance of ESD.
(http://t2.ftcdn.net/jpg/00/34/23/93/400_F_34239351_tFqExdRWNqvfyYRLld7QVyhUfN0CwG1g.jpg)
Thread can be closed, because a HDMI Mod is announced in the near future. No RP2C03B RGB PPU is needed ;)
Quote from: Moosmann on January 19, 2013, 03:52:29 AM
PPUs broken mostly non-observance of ESD.
(http://t2.ftcdn.net/jpg/00/34/23/93/400_F_34239351_tFqExdRWNqvfyYRLld7QVyhUfN0CwG1g.jpg)
Thread can be closed, because a HDMI Mod is announced in the near future. No RP2C03B RGB PPU is needed ;)
Maybe VGA instead?
@Skips: Was it acting strangely before or after that shielding experiment?
I don't see how an HDMI (DVI) NES in any way makes an RGB modded one obsolete though it will probably ease the demand on RGB PPUs significantly which is a good thing.
I fixed the jailbars ages ago. I found what causes jailbars is the distance between the ppu and the rgb amp / video encoder. Adding even a few inches between the amp and the ppu makes the rgb pick up distortion. It might also have to do with how close your ppu rgb lines are to the pcb before they hit the amp / encoder. Adding distance between the ppu and the amp / encoder also made the image more blurry for my setup. Maybe this funky tape thing is also a fix?
I use the cxa2075 it's the sharpest and best looking s-video I've ever seen, much better than the cxa1645. I would have used the cxa2075 sooner but the first ones I bought came from utsource and they were faulty. I thought my circuit was bad, turned out that utsource sends dead encoders. I bought a cxa2075 from a different supplier much later and it worked fine.
*edit*
Some s-video pictures:
(http://imgboot.com/images/Drakon/castlevania.jpg)
(http://imgboot.com/images/Drakon/rockman52.jpg)
(http://imgboot.com/images/Drakon/tmnt3_1.jpg)
As for a crt rgb / s-video from a composite ppu mod there's this:
http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9561 (http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9561)
They found a way to make the composite ppu output digital signals which can be converted into whatever video format you desire. Even if bunnyboy continues treating the world like nobody can solder and everyone uses only hdmi, someone else will make the same thing but with rgb / s-video / whatever format you want. Once you find a way to get the digital signals you can do pretty much anything you want with them. That's why there's no audio over hdmi from the nes, no digital audio to be found in the system unless you feel like recreating the entire cpu.
Regarding glitching ppus, a couple of people sent me their ppus for testing:
ppu glitching (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PgL-H9iX9E#)
And the all time winnar:
maxwar demo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY_CMOwgfbo#)
This's your ppu on serious drugs.
I run my ppus all day with no heatsink and nothing bad ever happens. All the systems I built for clients I removed the heatsinks and nobody said their ppus had any issues. I've been building these for commissions for years now. I extensively tested my ppu with no heatsink first. I'm sure if removing the heatsink caused any issues one of the many many many many consoles I built would have had issues by now.
*edit again*
I built a rgb nes-cpu-07 toaster ages ago for a client that has no jailbars. No funky shielding. This toaster actually had already been rgb modded ages ago by someone else but the client said it was full of jailbars. I didn't even test the old circuit once I redid the system there were no jailbars. I didn't do any shielding or fancy grounding tricks.
Interesting link, I wonder who figured this out first. Hard to believe there is still misconception about RGB PPU removal being violent or destructive.
Drakon,
What RGB monitor do you use?
Quote from: eastbayarb on January 27, 2013, 04:43:06 AM
Drakon,
What RGB monitor do you use?
None, this's a rca F27668 using s-video.
Anyone got a link to this HDMI NES idea?
I can't imagine how it could possibly provide a crisp picture with just the analog output of the Composite PPU plugged into an A/D converter and then into an HDMI interface? Or are they re-creating the Composite PPU in FPGA form or something?!
On another note I just finished doing the 2nd audio circuit mod on my RGB NES so that now I have 2 separate audio channels with just as good quality and loud audio as the mono audio circuit RCA socket in the RF box, I'm rather pleased with it. Now I have to install all the 3 PCB's in the NES and tidy it up.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Well looks like here's a good link that will do for starters ;-
http://www.retrogamenetwork.com/2013/01/17/nintendos-nes-console-to-get-2-modern-upgrades-hdmi-and-online-leaderboards/ (http://www.retrogamenetwork.com/2013/01/17/nintendos-nes-console-to-get-2-modern-upgrades-hdmi-and-online-leaderboards/)
Official Forum Thread: http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?StartRow=1&catid=7&threadid=92557 (http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?StartRow=1&catid=7&threadid=92557)
Cheers,
Alistair G.
The hdmi thing is using digital signals. They figured out how to get digital video signals from the composite ppu by exploiting a mode where it's designed to work together with another ppu. It's all documented on nesdev thefox built a fpga device that converts the signals into vga, you can convert the digital signal into any format you desire.
I figured I would post this here to see if anyone else had any ideas.
I decided to finally splurge and get a couple AV Famicoms to RGB mod since everyone seems to be saying that jailbars are either almost nonexistent or not visible at all on most TV's. I also have three of the AV Famicom RGB kits found here http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/ProductsList.html (http://homepage3.nifty.com/F-LABO/ProductsList.html). Two of them have a CXA2075 and one has the CXA1645 it came with. I managed to get everything hooked up flawlessly on both the AV Famicom systems, however the jailbars are horrendous. I tried both systems with all three kits with the two PPU's I have and all combinations had much worse jail baring than my US consoles. It is like this on all my televisions using s-video and my external component encoder.
At first I thought I did something wrong but one of the kits were built by Drakon and it did not have any jailbars in his setup. The were no errors made when socketting the PPU and was probably the cleanest de-soldering job I have ever done. I also bent the RGB pins up and tried my own amp from another working US RGB NES and ran RGB back to the AV port. It had the same terrible jail baring, even worse than the US NES the same amp had been pulled from! Something has to be wrong or I am missing something if these systems are supposed to be a lot better than any of the other revisions of the NES. The PPU's I am using are labeled RP2C03B 4B3 40 and a 4A4 2B. The only thing I can currently think of the culprit being are the PPU's themselves, unless its the wire I am using to connect the kit to the AV port. I am just using standard 26 gauge un-shielded stranded wire. It seems to work fin on all my other projects.
2 of my PPU's (they are all RP2C03B ) had 8L4 18 on them, another 2 had 9F3 27 on them, 1 had 4B2 36 on it.
I sold one of the 8L4 18's. The one I sold showed faint jail bars on blues and oranges in SMB1 USA version on my IN76 projector, but no jail bars on black backgrounds when contrast was 50 per cent and brightness at 64 per cent, and with lamp on high power mode.
I tried all 5 PPU's on my 14" Sony CRT 4:3 TV and they all looked identical (nice and sharp, no jail bars visible). My NES is a USA NTSC Revision 4 toaster NES. My PSU is 9V DC (NOT AC) PSU of 2 Amp's capacity. I have given a full and complete description of my modded NES throughout this topic. Sorry I don't have an AV Famicom.
So all I can help with is that I have a PPU which is very close in revision / batch number to yours, and it has just about no jail bars.
Drakon probably is the most experienced here, and might well be able to solve it.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Run S-Video out of that LABO kit if you want the cleanest (but not the sharpest) video. If I run straight RGB onto my Sony PVM it will produce weak bars which are more noticeable depending on game. Playing with your television settings, particularly brightness, can also noticeably reduce the bars.
I am so glad I have 2600's NES to playchoice adapter, RGB video on my arcade monitor, no jail-bars. :D
Well it needs to be said that if anyone is experiencing Toploader RF out style jailbars on an RGB modded AV Famicom or any other RGB modded NES for that matter something went horrifically wrong. These are so faint even on the PVM that they are difficult to capture.
Since you mention that cartridge adapter Tighe, do you own real cartridges or just a Powerpak? I ask because I'm curious if the PC-10 hardware gets graphical trash on the Bubble Man stage (underwater) in Mega Man 2 or if Battletoads occasionally locks in the Wookie Hole.
Quote from: Salamander on March 01, 2013, 01:39:50 AM
Well it needs to be said that if anyone is experiencing Toploader RF out style jailbars on an RGB modded AV Famicom or any other RGB modded NES for that matter something went horrifically wrong. These are so faint even on the PVM that they are difficult to capture.
Since you mention that cartridge adapter Tighe, do you own real cartridges or just a Powerpak? I ask because I'm curious if the PC-10 hardware gets graphical trash on the Bubble Man stage (underwater) in Mega Man 2 or if Battletoads occasionally locks in the Wookie Hole.
I have played Mega Man 2 on it and didn't notice any problems, but I will check. I don't have a powerpak, I am waiting ThunerBunny to release his updated one with on-line scoreboard.
I don't have Battletoads, but I really should pick that game up.
I can say that on the adapter that Kirby and Mega Man 5 don't work without I mod that 2600 suggested I do. I haven't done it yet. They work in the powepak though.
I made some youtube videos about the adapter if you want to see it in action. All the initial difficulties I had came down to dirty carts and a short in the wiring harness:
First test: Playchoice 10 NES Cart adapter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UtlhERuHMc#ws)
Playchoice 10 NES Cart Adapter: Update (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjTDwIgyyOQ#ws)
Playchoice 10 with NES Cartridge Adapter (Project Completed) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myHr8cGHgwU#ws)
Here is some extended play of me playing Kid Icarus on it.
Part 1: Giving Kid Icarus a Second Chance: Level 1-1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwyiw6VQgoE#ws)
VS Gumshoe and Titler use the same PPU???
Quote from: DaddyLongLegs on March 01, 2013, 10:49:52 PM
VS Gumshoe and Titler use the same PPU???
Famicom Titler uses the RC2C05-99 PPU http://dentsubo.sakura.ne.jp/diary/img/2008/20080728_titler2.jpg (http://dentsubo.sakura.ne.jp/diary/img/2008/20080728_titler2.jpg)
VS GumShoe uses RP2C05-03 http://tech.quarterarcade.com/Game.aspx/8784 (http://tech.quarterarcade.com/Game.aspx/8784)
But take note of what Markus said ;- http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1592.msg24143#msg24143 (http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1592.msg24143#msg24143)
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Quote from: Live_Steam_Mad on March 02, 2013, 05:09:28 AM
Famicom Titler uses the RC2C05-99 PPU http://dentsubo.sakura.ne.jp/diary/img/2008/20080728_titler2.jpg (http://dentsubo.sakura.ne.jp/diary/img/2008/20080728_titler2.jpg)
VS GumShoe uses RP2C05-03 http://tech.quarterarcade.com/Game.aspx/8784 (http://tech.quarterarcade.com/Game.aspx/8784)
But take note of what Markus said ;- http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1592.msg24143#msg24143 (http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1592.msg24143#msg24143)
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Baku posted the schematic to get the rc2c05-04 working a while ago:
(http://imgboot.com/images/Drakon/0504.jpg)
The circuit also works with the gumshoe rc2c05-03 ppu. I havn't tested any others because I've never had any of them in my posession.
Hello, I am doing this mod now. I have the PPU out and the socket ready (machined precision one), but I am a little unsure of the type of video amp to use.
I have a NJM2267, but I see this is only a dual-input. Is there a quad input amp that works well with the mod so I can get all the RGB inputs amped with only 1 chip? Thanks. ;)
*Edit* I'm seeing a lot about the THS7314 since it has 3 inputs...good choice for me to get?
THS7314 was the first style I built and was pleased with the results and simplicity. It's a nice solution if all you care about is an RGB signal with few components.
I'd also second the THS7314, I use it for N64 and PCE/TG-16 RGB mods and it's never let me down.
Oh cool, so that is a good amp. :)
Are there any schematics around showing how to hook this up? I assume there would be some passive components to use too like 75ohm resistors or some such.
Bump :) Anyone know where the schematics are? And about pin 17...does it need lifted too? I saw a post saying when pin 17 was lifted, the jailbars were reduced. Thanks.
If you read from my post of http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1592.msg29740#msg29740 (http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1592.msg29740#msg29740) onwards, I give a complete detailed description of the connections that I used in order to hook up my USA NES revision 4 with RGB mod and RP2C03B to my Euro type Sony CRT TV's with SCART. That should help you out if you are based in EU. Or are you based in USA?
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Yes, I did read the whole thread here but it is a lot to digest. I'm not sure I have it all yet, but I'm trying :)
I have a toploader nes and have removed the old PPU already and have the precision socket ready. I am going to use a THS7314 amp.
There is lots of talk in this thread about grounding issues and jailbars.
At the moment, this is how I am thinking to do the mod:
pins 14-16 rgb pins going into the amp
pin 17, lifted and not sure what to do with it" (Any suggestions what to do with it?)
pin 20 ground for amp
pin 21 sync going to the multi-out connector
pin 40 5V going into the amp
Does anyone know where I would get the audio from the top loader to go to the multi-out connecter? The top loader doesn't have separate a/v rca jacks, just 1 rf out.
Thanks for any help you can offer, I am almost ready to do the mod.
You should be able to pick up audio at the inductor FC1. I don't lift pin 17 on the PPU it has never made a difference for me.
Hi, I recently picked up a duckhunt Vs. PPU and plan to install it in my AV famicom (1st revision). I plan to use a THS7314 amp to amplify the RGB lines and wire them to the multi out and just use an external converter.
My question is, do pins 14,15,16 need to be lifted when grabbing the RGB signal? I recall reading some cases where people mentioned not lifting them but after reading this thread people mention they must be lifted. Any clarification on this? Maybe it's only for the Toaster style NES's? I also plan to put a 0.1uF ceramic capacitor between pins 20 and 22 which was said to significantly reduce jailbars.
Anyone know for sure? Thanks.
Quote from: CaptainScurvy on June 04, 2013, 08:04:11 PM
Hi, I recently picked up a duckhunt Vs. PPU and plan to install it in my AV famicom (1st revision). I plan to use a THS7314 amp to amplify the RGB lines and wire them to the multi out and just use an external converter.
My question is, do pins 14,15,16 need to be lifted when grabbing the RGB signal? I recall reading some cases where people mentioned not lifting them but after reading this thread people mention they must be lifted. Any clarification on this? Maybe it's only for the Toaster style NES's? I also plan to put a 0.1uF ceramic capacitor between pins 20 and 22 which was said to significantly reduce jailbars.
Anyone know for sure? Thanks.
This is more or less what you need to do for the RGB pins, otherwise you will be shorting the RGB output to ground:
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/Konsolkongen/Various%20mods/DSC00293.jpg)
Ok so they must not be connected to the pcb, got it, thanks.
Just completed installing it and it looks great. However I have pretty prominent jailbars that you can see extremely well on the savestate mapper menu on the powerpak, this is coming directly from my capture card (they're also visible on my tv just as well):
(http://i.imgur.com/YXxTZvt.png)
It's also visible in games, you can see them in the brownish background of the castlevania logo:
(http://i.imgur.com/6k18lzp.png)
It's an AV famicom (rev 1). I'm using a THS7314 amplifier that is as close to the ppu as I can get it. The amp is powered by pin 40, and grounded using pin 20 of the PPU. I also placed a 0.1uF capacitor between pins 20 and 22.
Any idea's on how to reduce the jailbars perhaps?
EDIT:
Here's the amp I created (that capacitor between the ground and 5v is not shorting those pins before anyone asks :P) and how everything is wired. Ignore the wire on the top left near the cartridge slot, it's just ground for a LED.
(http://i.imgur.com/owDt0g0l.jpg) (http://imgur.com/owDt0g0.jpg)
NES powerpak increases jailbars, I use the famicom n8. Here's my rgb twin famicom:
(http://i.imgur.com/8WIQUKE.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/q3ztF33.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/lKoGVQu.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/mD8do98.jpg)
Drakon RGB Twin Famicom Demo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3PMfeN7cBA#)
Jailbar free rgb or true s-video on my tv, two audio circuits real time selectable with a switch at the back, n64 multi av port, nes controller ports, replaced the expansion port with a standard port, no extra holes cut into the nice looking case, and the fds drive works.
...oh yes and I swapped that chip so the nes powerpak will work even though I now use the n8.
That doesn't really help the situation, that's just masking the issue. The jailbars are still present on actual carts. They are more prominent on the powerpak however. I'm gonna move the power for the amp off the PPU and get it straight from the regulator. Getting the 5v off the PPU to the amp seems silly to me now that I think about it. The issue appears to be with power draw as the jailbars become more visible with the powerpak.
Have you tried running that 'jail bar free' twin famicom on a LCD? The jail bars don't show up nearly as much and pretty much disappear when I use a CRT. Try a LCD and see if there are still no jailbars.
And holy crap, go easy on that hot glue.
Quote from: CaptainScurvy on June 08, 2013, 01:13:31 PM
That doesn't really help the situation, that's just masking the issue. The jailbars are still present on actual carts. They are more prominent on the powerpak however. I'm gonna move the power for the amp off the PPU and get it straight from the regulator. Getting the 5v off the PPU to the amp seems silly to me now that I think about it. The issue appears to be with power draw as the jailbars become more visible with the powerpak.
Have you tried running that 'jail bar free' twin famicom on a LCD? The jail bars don't show up nearly as much and pretty much disappear when I use a CRT. Try a LCD and see if there are still no jailbars.
And holy crap, go easy on that hot glue.
I don't have a lcd but on my capture card which picks up every form of interference imaginable there's no jailbars on it unless I use my powerpak. The purpose of the hot glue is to avoid shorts, I can remove it very easily just takes a little patience.
I've moved the power for the ths7314 amp from pin 40 on the ppu straight from the regulator. I also lifted pin 17 on the ppu and wired it straight to the Multi-out ground. No change in the jailbars unfortunately.
(http://i.imgur.com/oqbxBzl.png)
Anyone have any suggestions other than don't use a powerpak? The bars are still present with real carts and almost completely disappear when using a crt.
EDIT:
I'm starting to wonder if the problem is coming from the SN74HC373N I ordered. I used this exact part:
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SN74HC373N/296-1591-5-ND/277237 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SN74HC373N/296-1591-5-ND/277237)
I never bothered to see if the Texas Instruments LS that came with the av famicom worked as I just went right ahead and placed it with the HC because of other reports. I think this may be the cause because there are sometimes minor graphical glitches that occur. I'm going to try to put the original back in tonight if I have time if not tomorrow.
Can anyone list the exact 74HC373 they used (part # or link to a site that sells it) to replace in their NES's that works with the power pak?
The 373n isn't the problem. I also made a mistake my twin famicom isn't jailbar free on my capture device, but on my crt it's jailbar free. There's actually a good thread on my personal forum with lots of great solutions to further remove jailbars, it's stickied in the "work in progress" section.
Skips took jailbar removal to a whole new level. I only took it so far because I play my systems on a crt.
I tried every single one of those about an hour ago, minus putting a cap on the CPU and shielding the ppu because I have no copper tape and none of them had any affect. I even took before and after screenshots to make sure if there was any difference and none showed.
Putting a 220uF cap between the PPU's ground and 5v is overkill, you shouldn't need any more than a 0.1uF, but just to entertain the idea, I tried a 220uF anyways just to be certain I try what someone else suggested to remove the bars and it did absolutely nothing. Lifting pin 21 and wiring it directly to the multiout did nothing. I kept all these changes as I did them and tested video each time I added one and no change ever occurred in the appearance of the jailbars. Giving the amp power and ground from the PPU does indeed clean up the bars a little, so I changed that back.
I will try shielding the ppu this week, I ordered some copper foil from amazon as I've read in this thread that actually gave results to a few members here. Unfortunately most of that list did absolutely nothing, at least for an AV famicom.
Ok, today I pulled the HC373 out and put the orginal LS373 in and I get the vertical striped lines with the powerpak. It also changed nothing with the jailbars, I tried a real cart while it was in and they were still present. I also tested putting a 68pf cap between pin 24 and 20 and this caused major graphical glitches in games such as rc pro am, do not do this. I also found that putting a 0.1uF cap between 20 & 22 also makes the graphical glitches worsen, but very slightly, so I removed that as well.
I'm really hoping the shielding on the ppu is going to get rid of them to the point they don't distract me anymore. Another thing I'm going to do is get the amp closer to the ppu but just wiring the caps straight off the rgb lines to the amp rather than using wires.
Quote from: CaptainScurvy on June 10, 2013, 05:04:11 AM
Ok, today I pulled the HC373 out and put the orginal LS373 in and I get the vertical striped lines with the powerpak. It also changed nothing with the jailbars, I tried a real cart while it was in and they were still present. I also tested putting a 68pf cap between pin 24 and 20 and this caused major graphical glitches in games such as rc pro am, do not do this. I also found that putting a 0.1uF cap between 20 & 22 also makes the graphical glitches worsen, but very slightly, so I removed that as well.
I'm really hoping the shielding on the ppu is going to get rid of them to the point they don't distract me anymore. Another thing I'm going to do is get the amp closer to the ppu but just wiring the caps straight off the rgb lines to the amp rather than using wires.
Get a Playchoice 10 and install 2600's NES cart adapter. I have zero jail bars on it with the powerpak.
Now my Vs Red Tent is a whole other issue. It has pretty strong jail bars on vs smb when vs castlevania is on the other side. I may try some of these suggested fixes and see if it will work on a vs board.
I don't have much hope though in a tiny metal cocktail with two rgb monitors and a board with two.linked nes systems on it.
Here is a link to order 2600's adapter, this still probably be the last batch he does the way he is talking. $65 is a great deal!
http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=277308
Quote from: Tighe on June 10, 2013, 09:29:49 AM
Quote from: CaptainScurvy on June 10, 2013, 05:04:11 AM
Ok, today I pulled the HC373 out and put the orginal LS373 in and I get the vertical striped lines with the powerpak. It also changed nothing with the jailbars, I tried a real cart while it was in and they were still present. I also tested putting a 68pf cap between pin 24 and 20 and this caused major graphical glitches in games such as rc pro am, do not do this. I also found that putting a 0.1uF cap between 20 & 22 also makes the graphical glitches worsen, but very slightly, so I removed that as well.
I'm really hoping the shielding on the ppu is going to get rid of them to the point they don't distract me anymore. Another thing I'm going to do is get the amp closer to the ppu but just wiring the caps straight off the rgb lines to the amp rather than using wires.
Get a Playchoice 10 and install 2600's NES cart adapter. I have zero jail bars on it with the powerpak.
Now my Vs Red Tent is a whole other issue. It has pretty strong jail bars on vs smb when vs castlevania is on the other side. I may try some of these suggested fixes and see if it will work on a vs board.
I don't have much hope though in a tiny metal cocktail with two rgb monitors and a board with two.linked nes systems on it.
Here is a link to order 2600's adapter, this still probably be the last batch he does the way he is talking. $65 is a great deal!
http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=277308 (http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=277308)
Ya, that's not the solution I'm looking for though. If I wanted to lug a playchoice PCB around I guess that'd be fine, but the whole purpose of doing this is to have a nice small console (av famicom) that does rgb and plays NES games, I'm not looking for anything 'supergun'ish.
I'm hoping rebuilding the amp and shielding the ppu (I'll also do the CPU) will get the results I'll be satisfied with.
Does anyone know if the RC2C05-4's are supposed to have no jailbars?
Yeah, I suppose it isn't very portable, although it could be if one were to consolize a PC10 board:
As you can see it isn't very large.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-MkIZXM0sL_s/TqoLBQBGNtI/AAAAAAAAGZE/MtJZnX__78k/s800/IMG_20111027_215243.jpg)
And the countertop isn't huge by any means (heavy yes) :P
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w7/modessitt/PC1.jpg)
Got the copper shielding in today. I shielded the PPU in 4 layers of copper shielding and the CPU in 2 (grounded both of course). It seemed to improve the bars, but not very much:
(http://i.imgur.com/SZYJzgJl.png) (http://imgur.com/SZYJzgJ.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/xwhINGMl.png) (http://imgur.com/xwhINGM.png)
I'm thinking the bars are just a part of the PPU itself and nothing you can do about except run it through an encoder that can filter them out.
So, I made my final attempt at removing the jailbars tonight.
I replaced the THS7314 with a NCS2553 that I had lying around. Now I get a better picture, but the jailbars are more visible on black screens, I've decided to stay with the NCS2553 because the colors are more vibrant, at least to me.
(http://i.imgur.com/ruJggprl.png) (http://imgur.com/ruJggpr.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/BrRREHjl.png) (http://imgur.com/BrRREHj.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/ztkNjPtl.png) (http://imgur.com/ztkNjPt.png)
The 2nd thing I tried because it's been bugging me, is I wired a 2nd 7805 regulator to the 9v source and powered the video amplifier seperate from the 5v rail the AV Famicom was using. This showed no improvement at all.
So I guess I'll just have to live with the jailbars, I'm too lazy to try and transport this thing to my NES-101 as everything I've tried so far has failed and it appears the bars are just part of the ppu.
- Shielding the PPU (possibly the CPU also since I did both) helps slightly.
- Moving the amp as close as possible helps slightly.
- cap between 20 & 22 does nothing
- cap between 20 & 40 does nothing
- cap between 20 & 24 actually caused more graphical glitches, I do not recommend doing this.
- Lifting pin 17 and grounding it to video ground does nothing.
- Lifting pin 21 and wiring it to the multi-out's composite sync without going through the pcb does nothing.
I'm out of ideas. Would love to see someone else try and tackle this with an AV famicom without using an encoder to filter them out. Oh well. I gave it my best :).
The 101 really shouldn't make any difference and you'd actually lose expansion sound without further modification. If your photos are how it looks on your actual tv then they are pretty severe. Have you tried a different television? I use a Sony PVM-20M4U and never noticed them as strongly as you show here minus a few exceptional titles like Castlevania 2. If you are willing to encode to either s-video or component any interference you have should dramatically improve.
They're actually much worse on the TV. I can't see them in the powerpak menu with the capture card, but they are very clear on a TV.
I have tried ab bunch of things to get rid of the jailbars on my Vs. My next step is to re-cap the board and monitors.
Here is a NES cart of Kid Icarus running on my PC10 with a Sanyo 20EZV arcade monitor, note there are no jailbars:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-q5jehdbzn90/UbjDa8UbT3I/AAAAAAAAm1Q/DktqPSiOdvw/s800/20130612_050240.jpg)
Now on my Vs Red Tent there are jailbars on both monitors, it could be the PPU or it could be the Sharp XM-1801 monitors.
It is easier to photograph on the Vs Castlevania side even though to the eye the Vs SMB is worse:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-5RjusAwntuc/UbjDayj4sgI/AAAAAAAAm1Q/lUIlgPOj5nc/s800/20130612_050348.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-pXMQdWrJxxc/UbjDa-RPYfI/AAAAAAAAm1Q/v6JgS1ZzM40/s800/20130612_050328.jpg)
Ya, I'm pretty certain the jailbars are just in the PPU itself, the jailbars in your castlevania screenshot appear exactly the way mine are. Seems the only way to get rid of them is to filter them out. I'm going to try and get a hold of a RC2C05 and see if that improves the picture.
Quote from: CaptainScurvy on June 13, 2013, 06:14:12 AM
Ya, I'm pretty certain the jailbars are just in the PPU itself, the jailbars in your castlevania screenshot appear exactly the way mine are. Seems the only way to get rid of them is to filter them out. I'm going to try and get a hold of a RC2C05 and see if that improves the picture.
I might try putting my Vs Pinball PPU on it and see if the jailbars go away. The colors will be wrong but it will be a good test. If I recall correctly Vs Pinball didn't cause any jailbars.
Good idea, please post your results. I'm eventually just gonna take this PPU and put it in a Toaster NES and just send it through an s-video encoder. I've got around 5 CXA2075M's lying around so might as well put them to use.
Decided to try one more thing today before I switch PPU's to a 2C05. This time I powered the PPU on a separate 5V rail from a 7805 going through a pi filter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor-input_filter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor-input_filter)). So pin 40 was lifted and powered using this new circuit and it cleaned up the picture quite a bit, but the bars were still present. However they were just as visible on the powerpak as they were on a normal cart. Usually the powerpak makes them worse, probably because it draws more power, this did make them the same visibility as using a real cart. They become much more crisp and clean but did not remove them as they were still plenty visible.
It did clear some vertical lines I would get during black screens however. Here are some screen shots with the pi filter and separate 5v rail for the ppu:
(http://i.imgur.com/0BWzgY3l.png) (http://i.imgur.com/0BWzgY3.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/oRDkiQ6l.png) (http://i.imgur.com/oRDkiQ6.png)
So still noticeable, just cleaned up a bit.
However, what was a noticable improvement was these vertical white/colored bars i'd get over black screens:
(http://i.imgur.com/kKktPkLl.png) (http://i.imgur.com/kKktPkL.png)
If you look closely at the screen capture above, inbetween the 'FIGHT' 'AUTO' and 'PSI' 'Guard' there are these vertical faint white bars. Also above 'Lvl' 'Hp' 'Pp' They are more visible in another screen:
(http://i.imgur.com/t8YYoSql.png) (http://i.imgur.com/t8YYoSq.png)
^ You can see them on the top and bottom of the screen and are now greenish/yellow like the hotel room, may need to see the full size image to see.
With the 5v rail and pi filter, these bars are nearly invisible (you can still barely see them by changing the color curve or adjusting the gamma):
(http://i.imgur.com/yX4A6MKl.png) (http://i.imgur.com/yX4A6MK.png)
Definitely an improvement. For others trying to remove jailbars, try powering the PPU on it's own 5V rail and run it through a pi filter. I still feel that the PPU jailbars are caused by the PPU itself and nothing you can do about it.
The pi filter was an idea given to me by marshallh, this is the diagram he suggest to use:
(http://i.imgur.com/3KPwt5sl.png) (http://imgur.com/3KPwt5s)
Scurvey, move the rgb amp on top of the cpu so you can shorten the rgb lines between the ppu and the amp by 1 cm or so. I'm serious, that will make a difference. With these systems every mm of distance between the ppu and the encoder / amp makes a difference from my experience.
Here's an upgrade I did to my twin famicom thanks to a great suggestion by skips:
(http://i.imgur.com/8UH8bAa.jpg)
It's probably impossible to 100% remove the jailbars without completely redoing the system pcb layout. I would never trust using a crt as the ultimate way to know if your system is truly "jailbar free".
Here's kirby's adventure from my twin on my crt via s-video:
(http://i.imgur.com/XYe3RzQ.jpg)
Here's the same s-video signal fed into my capture device which picks up far more interference than any tv probably ever will:
(http://i.imgur.com/cPbuNhL.jpg)
I know some people who're working on a fpga / cpld device that uses the digital signals from the composite ppu to generate rgb. This should remove the jailbars for good as well as allowing you to use the original composite pallette. In my system the rgb travels less than 1 cm from the ppu to the sony cxa2075 amp / encoder chip.
The RC2C05 ppu doesn't improve jailbars. I know this because these screenshots in this post are generated from a RC2C05.
Also saying "the powerpak adds noise because of power draw" isn't correct, the powerpak is just poorly designed. The famicom n8 probably draws just as much power from the system as the powerpak does and the n8 doesn't increase the jailbars at all. All of my personal systems are modified for super clean video and all the krikzz flash devices I purchased for these systems didn't add any video interference. Krikzz just knows how to engineer things properly.
If I were the guess the cause of the jailbars I would say pcb layout design, which we can't fix without making an entirely redesigned nes / famicom pcb. With the rgb nes / famicom mod all you can do to help with jailbars is a few simple tricks. Trying to actually remove or filter out jailbars has been attempted by so many people over the years, I feel like we're sort of beating a dead horse at this point. I got the jailbars so clean that to see them I'd have to be directly infront of my tv, once I got it this good I called it a day. At least you people aren't running around saying "ZOMFG teh RC2C05 probably has the composite ppu pallette!". For a while I was getting e-mails and private messages about this rumor. Wishing something were true or possible to fix doesn't mean it can happen. At this point for super sensitive LCDs you're looking at buying some sort of upscaler that filters the pixels, which can have the same effect as me running a rgb famicom s-video capture through some virtualdub smart smoother filters resulting in something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlUHkO1nbVA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlUHkO1nbVA)
With a CRT just doing the tricks myself and skips came up with does the job, as well as not buying a nes poweprak.
The amp is directly over the ppu. I've already mentioned this, the legs of the 0.1uF caps coming from the RGB lines are soldered directly to the ppu and to the amp, I can't get it any closer.
And I think you're wrong about the powerpak vs n8. Unless you have some sort of technical explanation, I'm gonna go with my own theory as powering the ppu alone seems to fix that issue suggesting the powerpak is drawing more power than a regular cart would.
I already mentioned I tried just about every suggested you and skips made and it made no difference what so ever. Having the amp as close as possible and shielding the ppu were the only 2 that made a minor difference, all the others ones did absolutely nothing.
As far as the C05 not clearing jailbars, that may be the case, but at least I won't be dealing with some of the graphical glitches.
Famicom done right!
Captain: All I know is in a system where everything is powered by the regular 7805 power regulator the famicom n8 doesn't add jailbars and the nes powerpak does. I'm reading here
http://krikzz.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=59 (http://krikzz.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=59)
It says the n8 has:
"Voltage shift buffers on PPU and CPU bus for matching levels between 5v NES bus and 3.3 EverDrive bus. Far better than simple resistor buffers at reducing noise and power consumption."
Could be less power consumption, or maybe it's less noise. The super powerpak adds interference in snes systems with that translucent bar in the middle of the screen. In my systems the bar went from being clear translucent to green translucent. Whatever the reason, everdrives just don't add interference like the powerpaks do.
Good point, back in 2001 when I made a portable NES I removed the rf modular and ran the NES directly of 5v DC (battery) vs the 9v AC that runs into the amp RF modular.
I noticed that the composite video was much cleaner than a standard NES afterwards.
The info is on this site, you can see where I connected the +5v.
http://nesp.tighelory.com
Also you should see if you have a ground loop between your tv and famicom twin.
Look it up on Wikipedia, I would try eliminating everything else connecting to your tv. Have just the famicom and the tv, don't connect it to cable tv or anything.
Truthfully my twin couldn't possibly look or sound any better on my setup. Maybe if I was using a super sensitive flat screen tv I'd look into getting some sort of upscaler with a filter. I see no point in further trying to "clean things up" no noticeable interference shows up on my tv or sound system.
Skips uses more sensitive equipment than me so he took the work further than I did in terms of removing interference.
I did find this and think that it's proof that the only real way to actually "fix" jailbars is a complete pcb redesign:
NES Super 8 v1.8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmjpgT5dE1I#ws)
Or using fpga to get digital signals from the composite ppu and generate clean rgb with that (can't go wrong with digital). I'm waiting for the fpga solution since with that you can use any pallette you desire and it's the best 100% interference free rgb solution on the original nes / famicom pcbs.
Don't forget that thunderbunny (POWERPAK maker) is making a hdmi modded top-loading NES.
Quote from: Tighe on June 17, 2013, 12:59:04 AM
Don't forget that thunderbunny (POWERPAK maker) is making a hdmi modded top-loading NES.
Which uses the exact same fpga solution. Once you get digital signals you can convert them into whatever format you like interference free.
I just had game-tech.US http://www.game-tech.us/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Nes/NES-101Mods (http://www.game-tech.us/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Nes/NES-101Mods) put in my PPU and add the amp and multi-out port and I can't see a jailbar anywhere. I am very happy with it. This is a toploader hooked up to sony pvm monitor. Maybe I just got lucky to not see any jailbars.
Any chance you could possibly open it up and see if any ground or power points were changed for the ppu?
I'm wondering if the ground shielding the NES2 has that the AV famicom doesn't actually makes a difference also.
I decided to hook up my RGB ppu to my toaster nes and had significantly less jailbars. I'm assuming this is due to PCB design and not the chip now, exact same amp and setup and the jailbars are just faintly visible in a CPU-06 board. I guess the revision 1 av famicoms must have really bad grounding issues that cause interference in the ppu data lines.
Could be you just have a bad AV Famicom.
(http://i.picasion.com/pic70/de4649ea4663ea21f98f08f97d8869ff.gif)
V1 vs. V2 the only things I notice are some changed transistors an added electrolytic cap at C14 (6.3V 47μF) along with some minor cosmetic changes.
The systems in comparison are V1: HN10031970 and V2: HN10741609. The RGB modded AV Famicom I kept for my own personal use is a V1 as well HN10038231 and it displays beautiful video quality.
Cool V1 and V2 comparison!
What circuit did you use on your V1? I just picked up a V1 and a F-LABO kit and hope the results are at least as good as my CPU-10 RGB modded system.
Edit:
N/m question wasn't intended for me.
V1 with the full F-LABO kit, they really are great. The only change I make to it is shorter electrolytic caps at the back on the luma/chroma/composite lines so it fits in the case neatly.
My toaster is a cpu-06, it's about the same in terms of jailbars as every av famicom I've ever worked on.
Quote from: Salamander on June 22, 2013, 03:51:26 PM
V1 with the full F-LABO kit, they really are great. The only change I make to it is shorter electrolytic caps at the back on the luma/chroma/composite lines so it fits in the case neatly.
I found removing or relocating the composite video 220 uf cap makes it fit perfectly in the av famicom case. For the luma and chroma caps it fits fine.
Quote from: CaptainScurvy on June 21, 2013, 04:29:26 PM
I decided to hook up my RGB ppu to my toaster nes and had significantly less jailbars. I'm assuming this is due to PCB design and not the chip now, exact same amp and setup and the jailbars are just faintly visible in a CPU-06 board. I guess the revision 1 av famicoms must have really bad grounding issues that cause interference in the ppu data lines.
That sounds more like something could be wrong with your AV Famicom. I have moded both revisions of the AV Famicom PCB and jailbars were no different on either version across several different displays or encoders (s-video or component). PCB Revision does matter significantly on the Toaster NES though. Revisions 6 and 7 appear to be the cleanest versions as far as jailbars are concerned.
Some things you also have to remember are just because its "jailbar free" for one person does not mean it will be for others. Jailbar visibility is affected by many different variables (some of which have nothing to do with the NES itself). Some of these things will be...
- How sensitive your PPU is (some PPU's are more susceptible to interference than others, and yes I have confirmed this)
- Your television type (HDTV vs CRT)
- How sensitive your television is
- The level of sharpness your television is set at (the higher the sharpness the more visible jailbars become
- The level of brightness your television is set at (the higher the brightness the more visible jailbars become)
- Your NES PCB revision (did not seem to make a difference on the AV Famicom but does significantly on the toaster NES)
- The size of your television (the bigger a TV gets the more visible jailbars can become, this is only compounded further if the TV is sensitive)
- Distance between the PPU and amplifier
- Where you grounded the shielding on your CPU or PPU (Not everyone has to shield them but it helped me immensely)
- The type of video encoder you use if you are not just using straight RGB
- The amplifier you use
- How anal you are about imperfections (some people are ok with it as long as it can't be seen from a distance)
I'm sure there is more stuff I have tested over the past few months but it is late and I can't remember them of the top of my head.
On my 35 inch CRT jailbars are nonexistent on 99% of the games I play and even when they are visible you have to be right up against the TV to see them. However on my HDTV the jailbars are horrid. Unfortunately jail bar reduction is just something everyone that does this mod has to dink with until they find something that works for them. There is no 100% for sure method that anyone can give you to reduce them on your TV (not unless you copy everything they did including what I listed above and bought the same exact equipment as them). All anyone can really do is give you some of the things they did to see if it helps you out. Everything I listed was stuff I spent months dinking around with until I found what worked with my equipment, components, and setup. Drakon gave me tips that helped immensely however some things he told me did not work for me and I still had to go out and do a lot of experimentation to get it to an acceptable level for me. When someone says "jail bar free" Its not really jailbar free, its just not visible on their setup.
I am not sure if you are using a capture device in those screenshots you posted earlier or if you are using an HDTV. If you are using an HDTV I strongly recommend switching to a CRT with component video and using the FLABO kit in conjunction with the CVS 287. Some HDTV's do a great job of filtering out the interference but if its like mine it does a shit job at it. Most HDTV's I have personally tried an RGB Famicom/NES on have had very noticeable jailbars. That does not mean all HDTV's will, its just what I have personally experienced.
As long as your CRT is not complete shit a good CRT TV should have less visible jailbars than most HDTVs (assuming you are not using a device like the XRGB on the HDTV). I have tried my Famicom, AV Famicom, an Toaster NES on a dozen different Televisions and what I have listed above seemed to give the best results on one of the newer flat tube Sony Trinitron TVs. It is an excellent display and mine is damn near that of a Sony PVM in picture quality and at a much larger size. Dont bother with the NeoShitz or the Jfok for component video though, they blow ass compared to a properly configured CVS287. The CVS287 is not very sensitive to interference and appears to filter some of it out, I get stronger jailbars going through s-video on the FLABO's S-Video than I do via the CVS287.
My AV Famicom RGB mod turned out well! At least as good as my toaster.
XRGB-Mini to 55" RGB LED-LCD
(http://i.imgur.com/J16i101.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/BTtQ2fJ.jpg)
I see now what you mean Salamander about the Cv and Luma capacitors. I used polymer caps for these that are a little bit shorter than the included ones, but the cart slot/lid assembly doesn't quite have enough clearance. I had to use an extra machine pin socket to clear the 1uF caps on the Famicom PCB. I used machine pin headers that are a little too short, or else I might have been fine. I didn't wire up the audio separation circuit yet, but the kit is fully assembled.
I was always expecting flatscreens to be worse. I was really surprised when one of the first commission systems I built looked like this on the customer's flatscreen:
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff253/TheDrakon/av%20famicom%20model%202/withoutxrgb.jpg)
I think he just has a good tv.
rgb32e: The audio circuit is great but unfortunately with tmnt 2: the arcade game, kirbys adventure, and final fantasy 3 the "popping" bass kick / snare drum samples literally get filtered out. If you wire it up I strongly recommend you use a switch to be able to enable / disable the circuit. I still think the f-labo kit is the best thing in the world for vrc6 gaming.
Im bying XRGB-3 or Mini, but I like to record my gaming to PC too.
I have Hauppauge HD PVR which can input component and I have Hauppauge HD PVR 2 which can input HDMI, but can I input RGB Famicom on XRGB-3 or Mini and then Output Component or HDMI?
Is Mini easily to use, or is XRGB-3 better?
Quote from: Europemodder on June 25, 2013, 06:31:32 AM
Im bying XRGB-3 or Mini, but I like to record my gaming to PC too.
I have Hauppauge HD PVR which can input component and I have Hauppauge HD PVR 2 which can input HDMI, but can I input RGB Famicom on XRGB-3 or Mini and then Output Component or HDMI?
Both can input RGB. Both can output HDMI (you'd need a cheap DVI to HDMI adapter for the XRGB-3). Neither can output component.
Quote from: Europemodder on June 25, 2013, 06:31:32 AM
Is Mini easily to use, or is XRGB-3 better?
http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/ (http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/)
In short, Mini is generally better at most things.
When I'm playing like Megamans or Mario 3 on my RGB Famicom I got some gliching vertical on my right side of the screen. Its like color copied of some other places.
Is there same problem with everybody?
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9354/swkj.jpg (http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9354/swkj.jpg)
Which PPU are you using that is causing the glitch on the right hand side? I am using RP2C03B and see glitches on Super Mario Bros 2 (USA version) on the right hand side, I am using NES toaster revision 4 ( CPU 04 ) and Sony KV14LT1U FD Trinitron CRT 14" TV and Infocus IN76 projector (or was, bulb just went last month meh). Happened on all 5 PPU's of the exact same PPU model number.
Cheers,
Alistair G.
Quote from: Europemodder on June 28, 2013, 12:59:15 AM
When I'm playing like Megamans or Mario 3 on my RGB Famicom I got some gliching vertical on my right side of the screen. Its like color copied of some other places.
Is there same problem with everybody?
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9354/swkj.jpg (http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9354/swkj.jpg)
Welcome to the world of overscan european people. These aren't glitches. This stuff happens on a composite ppu as well. NTSC tvs don't display that range and therefore don't show those areas.
*edit*
Here's a commission I slapped together quickly.
(http://i.imgur.com/ozeeEsB.jpg)
THS7314 amp wired directly to the ppu socket pins in a nes-cpu-11 pcb. The result....extremely reduced jailbars.
(http://i.imgur.com/28JjJuz.jpg)
It's not quite as good as my other systems but it's a good proof of concept. Considering this pcb revision is usually the jailbar king.
Quote from: Europemodder on June 28, 2013, 12:59:15 AM
When I'm playing like Megamans or Mario 3 on my RGB Famicom I got some gliching vertical on my right side of the screen. Its like color copied of some other places.
Is there same problem with everybody?
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9354/swkj.jpg (http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9354/swkj.jpg)
What you're showing is completely normal for any revision nes. You normally wouldn't see that overscan area on an older CRT (which the nes is designed for) and it's due to the nes updating the nametable when scrolling.
The other glitch people are mentioning, like the SMB2 blue bar on the right side of the screen and glitching in mega man 2 bubble stage is caused by the RP2C03B. It seems this issue was fixed in the RC2C03B and other ppu revisions. At least I myself can confirm it occurs in a RP2C03B and not in the RC2C05-04 both of which I use.
Quote from: CaptainScurvy on June 28, 2013, 04:17:11 PM
Quote from: Europemodder on June 28, 2013, 12:59:15 AM
When I'm playing like Megamans or Mario 3 on my RGB Famicom I got some gliching vertical on my right side of the screen. Its like color copied of some other places.
Is there same problem with everybody?
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9354/swkj.jpg (http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9354/swkj.jpg)
What you're showing is completely normal for any revision nes. You normally wouldn't see that overscan area on an older CRT (which the nes is designed for) and it's due to the nes updating the nametable when scrolling.
The other glitch people are mentioning, like the SMB2 blue bar on the right side of the screen and glitching in mega man 2 bubble stage is caused by the RP2C03B. It seems this issue was fixed in the RC2C03B and other ppu revisions. At least I myself can confirm it occurs in a RP2C03B and not in the RC2C05-04 both of which I use.
Tech help fail. Rc2c03b has the megaman 2 glitch, the 05-04/03 ppus are the ones without it. I just checked the release dates. Playchoice 10 the pcb is from 1986, therefore the ppu design should be from 1986 as well. Top gun / gumshoe (rc2c05-04/03) is 1987, so there you go, updated ppu with the bug removed. I just checked...megaman 2 was never released on the playchoice. Perhaps these bugs can be worked around with romhacking. With help I romhacked a few awesome games / romhacks to run on the rgb ppus, stupid color emphasis... Luckily swapping color emphasis bits for grayscale / regular just requires changing a single hex value.
Ever get this sorted out?
http://consolemods.freeforums.org/the-rare-rc2c05-04-ppu-t130.html (http://consolemods.freeforums.org/the-rare-rc2c05-04-ppu-t130.html)
I also found the following, which seems to describe the same circuit:
(http://art30.photozou.jp/pub/213/165213/photo/69701968_624.v1372171719.jpg)
The black/green/blue pcb schematic using the 2 logic gates works, it's what I used with my C05-04.
Quote from: CaptainScurvy on June 29, 2013, 05:29:15 PM
The black/green/blue pcb schematic using the 2 logic gates works, it's what I used with my C05-04.
That's the baku circuit. He's since posted a single chip circuit which I haven't bothered wiring up. The single chip one also includes a jumper to switch between 05 series ppus and drop in nes compatible rgb ppus.
For anyone who wants to play really good games that normally don't work on rgb ppus:
http://16bitgamer.forumotion.ca/t223-rgb-nes-famicom-compatible-roms (http://16bitgamer.forumotion.ca/t223-rgb-nes-famicom-compatible-roms)
*frrt*
http://bakutendo.blog87.fc2.com/blog-entry-262.html (http://bakutendo.blog87.fc2.com/blog-entry-262.html)
http://bakutendo.blog87.fc2.com/blog-entry-259.html (http://bakutendo.blog87.fc2.com/blog-entry-259.html)
Quote from: Drakon on July 01, 2013, 01:32:44 PM
http://bakutendo.blog87.fc2.com/blog-entry-262.html (http://bakutendo.blog87.fc2.com/blog-entry-262.html)
http://bakutendo.blog87.fc2.com/blog-entry-259.html (http://bakutendo.blog87.fc2.com/blog-entry-259.html)
Looks like good info! Thanks!
I've had a VS. Gumshoe for years but never tried hooking it up due to the inverted RGB output. However, on the XRGB-mini there is a color invert option that should resolve that issue. I ordered parts for making a VS. to Jamma adapter, but haven't built it yet. I'll order a 74HC151 and give this a shot. 8)
Another note - I replaced all of the electrolytic caps on my AV famicom and noticed that bright JBs increased initially, but then reduced dramatically after a couple of hours of operation. I'd imagine this is in part the "break-in" that is spoke of in hi-fi sales. Hmm... :P
Gumshoe isn't inverted. It's the same pallette as the rp2c03b and the top gun ppu.
...oh wait you mean the actual arcade board.
Curious, anyone with a C03-05 have this occur in megaman 3?
I don't have an original cart to see if it's just the powerpak:
(http://i.imgur.com/NadbVVM.gif%5Dhttp://i.imgur.com/NadbVVM.gif)
Quote from: CaptainScurvy on July 03, 2013, 03:27:42 AM
Curious, anyone with a C03-05 have this occur in megaman 3?
I don't have an original cart to see if it's just the powerpak:
(http://i.imgur.com/NadbVVM.gif%5Dhttp://i.imgur.com/NadbVVM.gif)
I have regular rockman 3 cart it doesn't do that with my top gun ppu. The powerpak mappers are poorly written.
This worked out very well! ;D
(http://i.imgur.com/iMlG1M0.jpg)
No hot glue or scraggly wiring! :P I might add a zip tie though. ::)
I wish the PCB I used had a few more rows of holes. I built a VS. System to JAMMA adapter and couldn't get picture or sound from the board. Only a black screen (sync, no picture). I tried the VS. board first on my PVM-2030, and then on my XRGB-mini. I was able to confirm that the mini was receiving a "720x240p" signal from the status menu, so I decided to give the RGB mod a try.
I can confirm that this PPU gets rid of the moving blue lines in SMB2, and gives a better picture (no JBs on a CRT). What to do with my F-LABO kit with Duck Hunt PPU... Any takers?
Is that a gumshoe ppu? Does it have the proper palette?
Quote from: RGB32E on July 08, 2013, 11:24:24 PM
This worked out very well! ;D
(http://i.imgur.com/iMlG1M0.jpg)
No hot glue or scraggly wiring! :P I might add a zip tie though. ::)
I wish the PCB I used had a few more rows of holes. I built a VS. System to JAMMA adapter and couldn't get picture or sound from the board. Only a black screen (sync, no picture). I tried the VS. board first on my PVM-2030, and then on my XRGB-mini. I was able to confirm that the mini was receiving a "720x240p" signal from the status menu, so I decided to give the RGB mod a try.
I can confirm that this PPU gets rid of the moving blue lines in SMB2, and gives a better picture (no JBs on a CRT). What to do with my F-LABO kit with Duck Hunt PPU... Any takers?
You've also got no caps on the RGB output lines meaning your RGB lines are most likely carrying a voltage with them which could damage your devices. Did you check with a multimeter if there is any voltage on your output lines? Otherwise looks great, not sloppy at all.
Also can you please tell me the part # on that TI RGB amp you have there? Is it strong enough to use with an arcade monitor? I am building a JAMMA SNES.
Is this it?
http://www.ti.com/product/ths7314 (http://www.ti.com/product/ths7314)
Quote from: Tighe on July 09, 2013, 12:08:44 AM
Is that a gumshoe ppu? Does it have the proper palette?
(http://i.imgur.com/nOaUwAW.jpg)
I haven't made any objective palette comparisions, but it looks good to me. None of the PPUs do the color emphasis, so games like Maniac Mansion and Totally Rad display black instead of a color for some BG tiles.
Quote from: Tighe on July 09, 2013, 05:13:43 AM
Also can you please tell me the part # on that TI RGB amp you have there? Is it strong enough to use with an arcade monitor? I am building a JAMMA SNES.
Is this it?
http://www.ti.com/product/ths7314 (http://www.ti.com/product/ths7314)
Yes, it's the THS7314. For an arcade setup I would recommend using Tim's arcade adapter board instead of trying to consolize - http://etim.net.au/scart2arcV20_orders/orders.htm (http://etim.net.au/scart2arcV20_orders/orders.htm)
The THS7315
might be a better choice for an arcade cab as it has a higher gain.
Quote from: CaptainScurvy on July 09, 2013, 04:26:37 AM
You've also got no caps on the RGB output lines meaning your RGB lines are most likely carrying a voltage with them which could damage your devices. Did you check with a multimeter if there is any voltage on your output lines?
:o The caps are in the cable... all is well. 8) The 75 ohm resistors are on the underside of the PCB between the two headers. This is an AV Famicom, so I'm using a SHVC-010 cable I modified for direct connection to a XRGB-mini. The caps are fancy polymer ones - http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/RR70J221MDN1/493-3705-ND (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/RR70J221MDN1/493-3705-ND).
Quote from: CaptainScurvy on July 09, 2013, 04:26:37 AM
Otherwise looks great, not sloppy at all.
Thanks, I try.
(http://i.imgur.com/IXZXzRn.jpg)
I keep my f-labo kicking around because vrc6 stuff sounds better with that audio circuit (even on the twin famicom) and with some modding to the circuit the s-video looks amazing.
For color emphasis stuff on my forum there's a thread with a bunch of romhacked games to make them run fine on rgb systems. Including rockman minus infinity, mario adventure and just breed. It's possible to romhack any game to either disable color emphasis or change it to grayscale which the rgb ppu can do. I haven't bothered with other games because the other games with this problem I didn't find them to be very fun games.
For amping console rgb to arcade rgb the ultimarc rgb amp should get the job done. I discovered a while ago that the njm rgb amp can also go to jamma levels.
(http://i.imgur.com/5cZcl92.jpg)
rgb32e, hope you included a 0.1 uf decoupling cap on your ths amp.
Quote from: Drakon on July 10, 2013, 01:17:50 AM
I keep my f-labo kicking around because vrc6 stuff sounds better with that audio circuit (even on the twin famicom) and with some modding to the circuit the s-video looks amazing.
I haven't tried the audio circuit yet. I'll try it on the next one I mod! You and your S-Video shenanigans! ;)
Quote from: Drakon on July 10, 2013, 01:17:50 AM
For color emphasis stuff on my forum there's a thread with a bunch of romhacked games to make them run fine on rgb systems. Including rockman minus infinity, mario adventure and just breed. It's possible to romhack any game to either disable color emphasis or change it to grayscale which the rgb ppu can do. I haven't bothered with other games because the other games with this problem I didn't find them to be very fun games.
Sounds interesting! I've messed around with modifying in a hex editor, but do not have an IC programmer.
Quote from: Drakon on July 10, 2013, 01:17:50 AM
rgb32e, hope you included a 0.1 uf decoupling cap on your ths amp.
You mean for the VCC pin? Mine is hiding underneath the DIP adaptor.
Mario adventure can be played on flashcarts. However the other games that have been romhacked are mmc5 so those are repro cart only.
Just putting this out there so it's a bit more visible.
Those glitchy parts of Bubble Man in MM2, the glitchy bar in SMB2 and I'm sure others I'm forgetting to mention or test do seem to be PPU related. I picked up an rc2c03c PPU from who I believe posts as Akaviolence here (thank you!!) and it's got none of the graphical trash found on rp2c03b or rc2c03b PPUs. All 3 PPUs mentioned will work but the C revision cleared up the junk.
Quote from: CaptainScurvy on July 03, 2013, 03:27:42 AM
Curious, anyone with a C03-05 have this occur in megaman 3?
I don't have an original cart to see if it's just the powerpak:
(http://i.imgur.com/NadbVVM.gif%5Dhttp://i.imgur.com/NadbVVM.gif)
That video glitch is present in the original cart. With standard PPU machines you just have the glitchy line above Shadow Man, no jumpy video. The glitch even shows up in emulators.
Hi Drakon, I think you mentioned a while back that you use Easycap as your Frame Grabber.
Can you please right click on it in Control Panel / System / Device Manager / Sound, Video and Game controllers / USB 2.0 Video Capture (like it was on my August brand model VGB100 frame grabber) and tell me what chipset the Easycap uses please? My VGB100 uses the Conexant Polaris chipset and suffers from poor shadow detail shown here in a test clip (read the comments under the video!) ;-
Test clip of August VGB100 Frame Grabber, Conexant Polaris chipset, S-Video, Pioneer LX60D DVD NTSC (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChuMy3RlMEQ#)
Does anyone know of a Frame Grabber out there that uses a chipset which is NOT the Conexant Polaris? I want to try a different one. I wish Pioneer made one, my LX60D is awesome but there's no live digital output from it.
Regards,
Alistair G.
There are quite a few capture devices out there that use various chipsets. One of the best is the ATI Theater 200 found on the old AGP All-in-Wonder cards. EasyCAPs are far from quality devices though, and the vast majority on ebay are fakes. If you need a USB device, seek out an ATI TV Wonder 600 USB. Its capture chip is shown to not have problems with AGC like the later 650/700/750 chipsets.
Picked up a French PAL NES for fun mostly out of curiosity of what is inside that RF box. The socket and plug for this system resemble a multi-out connector on later Nintendo systems a whole lot minus that central key tab. Its identical to the covered port on the FDS RAM adapter but has 2 pins less than the RAM adapters plug (10 instead of 12). The cable isn't too common and it terminates into SCART. From what I can tell it uses the Sony V7021 chip to convert composite to RGB. I'm sure the picture is every bit as terrible. If nothing else I think this would make a really cosmetically clean RGB console if you were to do the necessary changes to the xtal, ppu and cpu. The rear of the bottom part of the case is even already marked for RGB!
Here are a couple of exciting things:
RetroZone HDMI-NES Prototype: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=47634 (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=47634)
(http://i.imgur.com/0kVpWe1.jpg)
VileTim's RGBNES kits! Solves the problem of needing to use an arcade PPU for RGB output. Has an onboard RGB encoder, so it provides S-Video and Composite video as well! $85 USD!
Shmups thread: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=47617 (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=47617)
Only designed to fit in NES toasters and original Famicom systems. An adapter is planned for other NES consoles (US top loader, AV Famicom, Sharp Twin, etc).
(http://etim.net.au/nesrgb/announcement/nesrgb_board.jpg)
A look at the other F-Labo kit this one without the sound components and using a CXA1645P over an M. Footprint is a lot more compact (58mm x 63mm instead of 59mm x 88mm) but it has vertical clearance issues in a toaster DOH! Cheaper too if you don't mind sourcing your own Sony encoder and don't want the sound.
could this be the real modern day solution, apparently, not emulation based
http://www.retrocollect.com/News/analogue-interactive-announce-rgb-ready-nintendo-nes-console-cased-in-aluminium.html (http://www.retrocollect.com/News/analogue-interactive-announce-rgb-ready-nintendo-nes-console-cased-in-aluminium.html)
Release? Pcb pics? Price?
I am having so much trouble with my NTSC Front loader NESRGB install. I have checked that all the pins from the ppu are connected to the corresponding pins on the nes motherboard with a multimeter when the nesrgb board is in place. I have asked Tim a few questions about what's happening and he says the crushed component is just a power supply bypass capacitor. It doesn't matter much. The EXT2 pin (which I ripped the pad off) on the motherboard is connected to ground so no big deal. The 72 pin connector is brand new and working fine before I butchered my poor nes. The sound and pallet switch both work great and games play fine (besides garbled graphics). I made sure to solder J5 solder jumper... Maybe there is something obvious that I did wrong or missed. I feel like either my ppu has been damaged somehow or my nesrgb board is a dud somehow? Please help :(
(http://s8.postimg.org/q1j2n7t1d/IMG_20140928_200654.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/q1j2n7t1d/) (http://s8.postimg.org/fdfbodj29/IMG_20140928_200822.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/fdfbodj29/) (http://s8.postimg.org/jp3xddpz5/IMG_20140928_200908.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/jp3xddpz5/) (http://s8.postimg.org/e27kfwngh/IMG_20140928_200922.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/e27kfwngh/) (http://s8.postimg.org/ezil2ioch/IMG_20140928_201142.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ezil2ioch/) (http://s8.postimg.org/koytmtuip/IMG_20140928_201150.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/koytmtuip/) (http://s8.postimg.org/wa8zujg01/IMG_20140928_201209.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/wa8zujg01/) (http://s8.postimg.org/xdt46i0n5/IMG_20140928_201735.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/xdt46i0n5/) (http://s8.postimg.org/lw861av9d/nesrgbcrushed.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/lw861av9d/) (http://s8.postimg.org/v6ka4u5z5/nesrgbmario3.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/v6ka4u5z5/)
After attempting to check pins and resolder the ppu I now have taken a huge step backwards and have this:
(http://s9.postimg.org/53rai5ucb/IMG_20140928_231754.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/53rai5ucb/)
Could pins be broken inside of the PPU from me bending the legs?
Quote from: rezendes on September 29, 2014, 05:46:26 PM
I am having so much trouble with my NTSC Front loader NESRGB install.
First thing I'd try is to try turning off the NESRGB (no palette selected) and see if stock composite video output still looks ok. If it doesn't, then there's an issue with the PPU and/or it's connectivity.
Quote from: RGB32E on September 30, 2014, 06:46:05 AM
First thing I'd try is to try turning off the NESRGB (no palette selected) and see if stock composite video output still looks ok. If it doesn't, then there's an issue with the PPU and/or it's connectivity.
Thanks for the idea, I will try it when I get a chance and report back with the results. After that, I think I'm going to attempt to desolder the ppu and test it directly in the nes stock.
Regarding the problems with my NESRGB install, I have Finally removed the PPU from the NESRGB (hours and hours and tons of frustration and ripped pads later). I popped it into the socket on the NES and it works beautifully... My problem now is that I have a ton of ripped off pads on a NESRGB that may have already had other problems. I'm trying to clean it up and see if I can save it, it looks bad though.
After helping me directly through email, Tim sent me a replacement and I got it up and running great, except I have it in a socket (cut some plastic out of the bottom of the NES hidden under the expansion cover) and I cannot press a game down or else I get a grey screen. Probably because I didn't cut a hole in the metal shield and it's probably too much pressure on the ppu or moving something around. I may just leave it how it is because the 72 pin connector will last longer without pressing games down.
First, I want to say thank you for the people that documented this original mod, and to Viletim for coming up with a superior one.
I obtained a Playchoice chip modded NES in a trade and am having some issues. I cleaned up the mod and it appears really solid now but this thing doesn't wanna read carts to save its live. I cut the NES10 chip (pin 4) and bought a new connector and it STILL takes me 20+ times to boot a game. Cleaned the board connector too. I keep getting a solid pink screen. Does anyone know if this mod might affect something? I was thinking of resocketing the PPU and doing some reflow work next. What a pain....is this ever related to bad caps?
Thanks for any help.
-Segasonicfan