N64 RGB "Mod" on NUS-001(FRA)

[kwyjibo]

Hi,

I'm from Spain, and I recently purchased a N64 in France. I was looking for the NUS-001(FRA) model, as I read that it may be moddable.

I opened it, and, I was lucky. VDC-NUS present (in fact, "VDC-NUS A"), but more surprises have to come. I connected some wires to the av output, to test which points were best to solder. I tested directly with the VDC-NUS pins, and with the points below, and both were a bit dark.

Then, I looked at the front PCB, near the VDC-NUS, there is another chip, that I think it is not on NTSC PCB's, named U5 and with the text "S-RGB A". The name says it all, so I tested the three points that outputs, and, picture was a bit bright, but using 75 ohm resistors, the picture looked better.

After that, I looked carefully at the PCB on the back, as the points I tested coming from U5 were holes to go to the back. You can look in the picture, that everything is ready to put on the PCB and get RGB working without using wires, only 3 surface resistors...

And, here are my doubts. The PCB has room for more than 3 resistors, in fact, we have a little circuit, that I don't know what is supposed to do (I attached a diagram I extracted from the PCB, that repeats from every line (R, G, B), as the output from U5 with a serie resistor seems to be enough...

Also, the output lack from the 12 blank signal to switch to AV automatically, but, again, it is in the PCB, lefting only R47 and D4...

[Link83]

Sorry to bump this thread, but I find this VERY interesting. As the original poster says the S-RGB chip is not present on NTSC N64's - so what does it actually do?

Also, I am really intrigued by the fact that this French N64 has all the traces necessary for RGB - even the early NTSC N64s dont seem to have these. All it needed were some surface mounted components to finish it off and im sure we could have an RGB'd N64 as Nintendo 'originally would have done it', so to speak. Surely someone here can figure out what all the missing components should be?

This could probably help make a better RGB mod for NTSC N64s aswell, if we could only figure out what parts were originally intended to be used. Does anyone know if development 'Partner' N64's have RGB? If so they may help us complete the circuit? 

Im amazed this post didnt get more attention at the time - only 37 people even looked at the rear photo!

Here the interesting bit:-
NFG edit: image link is dead.  Link was:
img46.imageshack.us/img46/5743/originaln64rgbzf9.jpg

and heres how I guess its supposed to look (edited with paint):-
NFG edit: image link is dead.  Link was:
img71.imageshack.us/img71/2448/editedn64rgbih3.jpg

Though I have no idea what component values nintendo had intended to use.

[Link83]

Have just made another picture showing the routes taken by all the connections - hopefully this will help someone?:-

[kwyjibo]

Hi there, at last, someone interested!  I forgot to tell all of you something... Sorry for my english 

Shortly after opened the topic, I completed the blank places on the backside of the PCB, with what you can see in the attached picture. It works but it is not perfect, I'm not a video expert.

I soldered a 75 Ohm resistance on the R41, R43 and R45 places, and non to the rest (R42, R44, R46, C11, C12, C13) and short circuited the places where Q1, Q2 and Q3 where supposed to be. But I think it would be more correct to place these 75 Ohm resistors on R42, R44 and R46, and put 0 Ohm resistors on R41, R43 and R45.

C11, C12 and C13, I think they are there, as it was in some SNES PAL models, where the GameCube RGB cable (with already included capacitors on the lines), showed a progressively dark image, because of the extra capacitors. So, if I was to going to use the GC RGB cable, there was no need to put anything there.

As for the Q1, Q2 and Q3, I'm still asking me what they was supposed to do, as the picture is almost perfect with what I soldered...

S-RGB is an interesting thing, I think I have seen it at least in the American SNES-2 (the redesigned model).

It seems that I have lost the original scans of the full PCB, but I'll do it again as soon as possible.

[NFG]

The 3-legged Q units are transistors.  If you're going to put some transistors in there you'll pretty much have to know what kind they are...  It's probably not too hard to work it out, but I'm not the right person to ask.

It might help if you were to work out the circuit for at least one of the R, G or B lines (they're probably the same) so better guesses can be made.

[Link83]

Glad to see replies 
I am no electronics genius (I only started modding 6 months ago) but I hope I can contribute to solving this.
Firstly, I am pretty amazed by this French N64 - Not even the development systems released before launch have any traces of RGB left like this! I guess this means it is one of the earliest designs or the N64 motherboard?

It all looks like its a small amplification circuit - perhaps thats what it is?

Anyway the way I see it we need to find 6 component values
The red, green and blue lines undoubtably use the same 4 components (So only 4 to identify)
Which follow like this:-

RED      Q1-R42-R41-C11
GREEN  Q2-R44-R43-C12
BLUE    Q3-R46-R45-C13

The other two are the D4 point, and the R47 point. (Although it doesnt look like the R47 point even connects to the AV output - perhaps its irelevent?)

The Q points are Transistors (just because of the fact they have three points) although we dont yet know the value to use.

I guess The R points are Resistors, and the C points are Capacitors, so we have:-

TRANSISTOR----RESISTOR----RESISTOR----CAPACITOR

For each of the Red, Green and Blue lines.

Perhaps the C point would be 220uf capacitors - as that is what official Nintendo Gamecube Scart cables have in them. Perhaps on the N64 these capacitors would have been in the console? (As with the PAL SNES)

The D points are Diodes. D4 seems to have a specific diode symbol which means it is a Zener Diode:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zener_diode
No idea what value though.

Is there a standard voltage for the Red, Green and Blue lines on a scart lead so that we can complete the circuit and test the output voltage until we get it just right?

Also, I would love to know what the S-RGB chip (U4) actually does - It was replaced with the ENC-NUS chip on NTSC systems, which has half as many pins, and looks to be missing the ones for RGB. That is why on an NTSC system you need to tap the RGB before it goes into the ENC-NUS chip.

I wonder if the S-RGB chip actually does anything with the RGB lines? or does it just use them to 'make' the S-Video and Composite output, and then pass them on unchanged? If so the S-RGB chip would not be needed to perform this mod on a console which doesnt have it.

The S-RGB chip itself seems to be still available on line, when I typed in the code BA6596F:-

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=BA6596F&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

But I wonder if the chip has to be actually 'programmed' to become the S-RGB chip and perform the same function?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have been looking at an NTSC Motherboard, hoping that it would give me some clues as to what goes where, when I noticed one transistor is still labelled Q1, heres a pic:-


its marked :Z.R: - but I cant find any reference to this transistor on google 

There is only one though, so I dont know how relevent it would be to the Q1, Q2 and Q3 points we are looking to find 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then I thought about the S-RGB chip, and how some SNES consoles use it. I decided to open up my PAL SNES and take a look, as it is a late model made in 1995. I looked inside and what did I see - the S-RGB chip! (Sorry dark picture) :-


I flipped over the board and looked and amazingly there are three transistors on the RGB lines also labelled Q1, Q2 and Q3! :-


They have the code BQ14 on them, which with a quick google seems to be a valid transistor code 


Also, the resistors used on the RGB lines are numbered 390:-


...but the ones I have commonly seen used on the NTSC N64's are numbered 750. Perhaps there should be two 390 resistors in sequence on the R points, equaling 780? (In fact, when I tested these resistors with a multimeter, they equaled 375 each, which would be 750 exactly if two were used)

The only problem is the traces on this PAL SNES are covered in brown paint(?) and you cant follow them easily like on the N64.

Also the RGB lines dont seem to have 4 components, only 3 (missing one row of resistors) so maybe this doesnt help us at all 

I hope someone with alot more knowlege/expertise can chime in hear and help us all out 

[kwyjibo]

Great pictures from the SNES, from that I will try to take the components from a spare SNES, and put them in the N64.

750 and 390 for a surface resistor mean 75*10^0 and 39*10^0, that is, 75 and 39 ohm each.

The D4 diode and R47 are for the auto-switch funcion pins in the scart connector, and they are interconnected, on the other side of the PCB, R47 connects to a 12v point.

The correct voltage values for RGB, are, if I remember correctly, 0.75Vpp, to fine tune this video circuit, a oscilloscope will be necessary, but, as it seems that the snes uses the same output chip, we can just recreate it, isn't it?

Also, this french model, doen't output S-Video... I don't know if the S-RGB outputs it or not, but we have the SNES circuit, to see where does de svideo come from

[Link83]

Glad the pictures help 

So the R47 and D4 points are not essential - only for the scart switching. You can usually turn TV's to the RGB channel manually, so I guess we dont really need them.
However, it would still be nice to get it working though exactly as it was intended 

I think it would be right to use the same components from a PAL SNES - Now that I think about it I remember that many people remove the capacitors on Scart leads for the SNES, and then add 33/47ohm resistors on the RGB lines.
Quoted from here:-
http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:nintendomultiav

" PAL SNES systems do not need these caps, but may require some 47 ohm resistors in their place in order to get the video contrast down to the correct level"

Perhaps Nintendo realised the picture was too bright on the SNES so added another row of 39ohm resistors on the N64 - so it should really be two 39ohm resistors on each line? Or you could just use one 75ohm resistor to get a similar effect 

I have looked up the BQ14 Transistors some more, but I cant seem to find information on its characteristics/values  Any ideas?

Also, I would love to confirm that the SNES used 220uf cacpitors on the RGB lines, but I dont have a Capacitor Meter to test mine. Does anybody have one and a PAL SNES they can test?

If we can find out if the S-RGB chip is necessary or not I am hoping we can add this circuit to any N64 with the VDC-NUS chip. If we take the RGB at the last available point before it goes into the ENC-NUS chip (After C124, C125 and C126) we should be able to get a picture exactly the same as this one produces.

All we would need to do is build a small circuit with a transistor, resistor and capacitor on each line and we would be in business! 

[Link83]

Also, this french model, doen't output S-Video... I don't know if the S-RGB outputs it or not, but we have the SNES circuit, to see where does de svideo come from

I just noticed that on your picture of the motherboard there are two points labelled JP2 and JP3 which needs jumpers to complete the circuit. My guess is these are meant to be for S-Video output (Chromo and Luma) from the RGB-S chip. If you put a jumper there I think you will get S-Video output on this N64, but you may loose/mess up the RGB output as I know S-Video and RGB use the same Scart pins.

Also, if you manage to get a PAL SNES I would try and put the Transistors and Capacitors from the RGB lines on the N64. Your 75 ohm resistors are probably right and can be left there. Please let us know how it goes!

If you can test the RGB signals just before and after they have passed through the RGB-S chip it would be very good to know if they change value at all. Then we would know if the RGB-S chip just passes the RGB signals through from the capactitors C124, C125 and C126 - Or if it amplifies/resists them in any way at all.

Also, would love some more pictures of the top and bottom of this N64 motherboard if you can 

[kwyjibo]

I just noticed that on your picture of the motherboard there are two points labelled JP2 and JP3 which needs jumpers to complete the circuit. My guess is these are meant to be for S-Video output (Chromo and Luma) from the RGB-S chip. If you put a jumper there I think you will get S-Video output on this N64, but you may loose/mess up the RGB output as I know S-Video and RGB use the same Scart pins.

I think I followed the JP2 and JP3 when I completed the RGB circuit, and didn't have any relation to the video circuit, if I remember correctly. If you look at the av pinout, pin 7 and 8 are not connected to anything...

Also, if you manage to get a PAL SNES I would try and put the Transistors and Capacitors from the RGB lines on the N64. Your 75 ohm resistors are probably right and can be left there. Please let us know how it goes!

If you can test the RGB signals just before and after they have passed through the RGB-S chip it would be very good to know if they change value at all. Then we would know if the RGB-S chip just passes the RGB signals through from the capactitors C124, C125 and C126 - Or if it amplifies/resists them in any way at all.

I tested the video signals after and before S-RGB. After, directly connected to the VDC-NUS, signal was a bit dark (just like the NTSC N64). Before, connected to the S-RGB, they were too bright (and then I discovered the back side, with the circuit we all know and love )

Also, would love some more pictures of the top and bottom of this N64 motherboard if you can 

I promise, but now I'm very busy to dissasembly the thousand screews it has! 

[Link83]

I think I followed the JP2 and JP3 when I completed the RGB circuit, and didn't have any relation to the video circuit, if I remember correctly. If you look at the av pinout, pin 7 and 8 are not connected to anything...

Doh! Didnt notice that.....

I tested the video signals after and before S-RGB. After, directly connected to the VDC-NUS, signal was a bit dark (just like the NTSC N64). Before, connected to the S-RGB, they were too bright (and then I discovered the back side, with the circuit we all know and love )

Between the VDC-NUS and the S-RGB there is a resistor and a capacitor - These are still present on NTSC units, but once they go into the ENC-NUS this is where the similarities end. I am wondering if the output from the Capacitors C124, C125 and C126 is the same as the 3 holes output near the Q points (Which come directly from the S-RGB chip) Heres a pic what I mean:-

If we try directly from the VDC chip we are missing out the resistor and capacitor

I promise, but now I'm very busy to dissasembly the thousand screews it has! 

Thanks that would be great

[kwyjibo]

Hey, I have received the SNES spare for parts, and, it seems to have a little different video circuit. There is no S-RGB chip, but there is a very similar 24-pin chip, same packaging, and with the same capital "S" as you have in your SNES, but labeled "S-ENC A".

I followed the lines with a tester, should be more or less like this:

Code Select Expand

SNES AV ------------------------ S-ENC A

  1 + DA12 - R7  - Q4 - R11 - C6 - 20
    |
   C44
    |

  2 + DA14 - R12 - Q6 - R21 - C8 - 22
    |
   C45
    |

  4 + DA13 - R17 - Q8 - R16 - C7 - 21
    |
   C46
    |

DAXX components are 3 leg components, one connected to the ground. QX components, seems to be the transistors all we know, but are not direct connected to the +5v from the 7805...

This SNES board is revision SNSP-CPU-02, Model No.: SNSP-001A(FRG) (SNSP-ESP at the bottom) with serial number UP16175914. What are the numbers from your Link83?

P.S.: I'll post picture from this SNES in a few days. Also, don't worry, I didn't forget the N64 pics

[Link83]

Well, my codes are abit different from yours, so I took some more pictures to show you:-




and clearer pictures of the S-RGB chip and board:-


Hopefully they help you?

One odd thing about this PAL SNES is that I have used the Official Gamecube Scart Cable for years and never had to remove the capacitors as some people have to. I had read that with PAL SNES consoles you had to remove the 220uf capacitors and add 47ohm resistors instead, but I have never had to do this and the RGB picture still looks perfect.

Looking forward to seeing some more pics of your N64 board and possibly its serial number/product sticker if you dont mind?

[kwyjibo]

Hi,

I found these pictures, I didn't remember that I toke them when I opened the N64.

Also, I have recovered some hint to search a PAL N64 RGB, extracted, I think, from the assembler forums:

NUS-001(FRA) with serialnumber NUP11xxxxxx or below

But I think that, every NUS-001(FRA) has the capability to do this mod, as when they changed this was because they began to sell the NUS-001(EUR).

http://webs.ono.com/kwyjibo/front.jpg
http://webs.ono.com/kwyjibo/back.jpg

Enjoy!

[Link83]

Hi again,
Thanks for your pictures 
I have been doing some research myself on these French N64's - which is not very easy for me as I dont speak or read French, but Babelfish has been my friend 

You are correct, only French N64s with NUS-001(FRA) printed on the sticker are RGB moddable, like this:-

Shot at 2008-06-11
I have circled in red the areas that are important. If it says NUS-001(EUR) here it cant be modded - it must say NUS-001(FRA)

The serial number is not important either - All that is important is that it says NUS-001(FRA) on the sticker (Please note - I cant guarantee this information, but from what I have found out so far this is correct)

Before I knew this I started to compile a list of serial codes for French N64s that can be RGB modded - but this is now useless! I also bought a French N64 which had a serial starting with NUP10****** thinking it should be RGB moddable, but it cant as it is an NUS-001(EUR) which has a DENC-NUS chip 

The strange thing is, the N64 I bought is a French launch machine and its motherboard has 1996 printed on it, whereas the NUS-001(FRA) you have has a 1997 motherboard!

I can ony think of one plausable reason for this:-

Nintendo thought French TV's might have a problem with PAL signals (As SECAM is used in France) so in 1997 they designed the French N64 console to output RGB to overcome this issue (They also did this with the French NES consoles which also output RGB [But of poor quality])
However at the last moment someone pointed out to Nintendo that almost all French TV's accept both PAL and SECAM signals, so Nintendo decided to just release the standard European N64 console in France aswell (which were produced in late 1996)
They had to use up the motherboards they had already produced for the French market, so to stop people complaining that 'their console doesnt support RGB but their friends does' they decided to remove the RGB components from all the French motherboards.
They then released both the NUS-001(EUR) and the NUS-001(FRA) in France at the same time (March 1997)

This is just a guess, but it makes logical sense to me.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you also said, it is interesting to note that Nintendo has removed the S-Video output on these French N64's - so actually you can only get RF/Composite out of the NUS-001(FRA) unless you RGB mod it. Obviously Nintendo were going to do what they did with the Gamecube and Wii and remove S-Video output, but have RGB Scart output instead.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another interesting thing is that the the 'Ultra 64 Development boards' used in the 'SGI Indy Development systems' also uses the same 'S-RGB A' chip that these French N64's do - and as far as I know they also output RGB - heres a picture of one:-

and a close up of the important bit, where you can just about read 'S-RGB A' printed on the chip:-


Its also looks like they use the VDC-NUS chip aswell (just below the S-RGB A chip) I cant be sure because I cant see the code printed on it, but from the number of legs and its location it seems likely to be the VDC-NUS chip.

I was hoping to find someone who had taken a picture of the other side of this development board - and so could tell us what the components were meant to be on the RGB lines - but so far I have not had any luck 

If anyone out there has one of these Ultra 64 development and could take a picture of the other side, or tell us the components that are used on the RGB lines - then we could add the correct components that are missing on these French N64's!

[ken_cinder]

Too much to read past the intial point of observing those points that were mentioned about missing transistors.

I can say for sure they are SOT-23 or SOT-323 package surface mounts, and judging from the pictures of others you've shown they are plastic encapsulated (PNP, not NPN) the values however.........your guess is as good as mine. You obviously have an idea of what kid of voltages are going across these lines, so take it from there.

[sarelc]

Sorry to go somewhat off-topic here, but I'm intrigued by Link83's mention of an RGB capable French NES model. What caused the poor quality you suggested? Would it be feasible to take the the output components from one of them and add it to an NTSC NES (with better results than the Playsomething PPUs with incorrect colour)?

[NFG]

Sorry to go somewhat off-topic here, but I'm intrigued by Link83's mention of an RGB capable French NES model. What caused the poor quality you suggested? Would it be feasible to take the the output components from one of them and add it to an NTSC NES (with better results than the Playsomething PPUs with incorrect colour)?

The French NES had the same video chip all the other Famicom and NES units had.  It output only composite video, and extra circuitry would convert that to RGB for SCART output. 

[Link83]

Yes, its exactly as Lawrence said im afraid - it takes the Composite output and turns it into RGB - so its not real RGB
I guess they only did this for compatability reasons back when alot of French TV's only supported SECAM signals and not PAL signals.

[sarelc]

That's a pity. Though I'm not surprised, someone would likely have thought of it long before I did if it was otherwise. 

[Link83]

Sorry to bump this thread again, but this subject still interests me, and I have just managed to acquire one of these French N64's myself 

I have been thinking about this RGB circuit alot, and 'think' I have figured out the components on the RGB lines.

Firstly you have the transistors Q1, Q2 and Q3 which are likely to the same as the ones on the late model PAL SNES, which were marked BQ14. Having done abit more searching on that code I came up with this datasheet:-

http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/2/P/B/7/2PB709AQ.shtml

Its a Philips PNP general purpose transistor code 2PB709AQ. If you read the datasheet you will see that the transistors have the marking code 'BQ'.
Unfortunately the 2PB709AQ is discontinued, but I would be interested in learning if the two other models mentioned (2PB709AR and 2PB709AS) could be used as an equivelant?

The next points R42, R44 and R46 are likely to be 75ohm resistors to ground. I thought about it and realised that although there are four components on the RGB lines of this N64 and only only three on the PAL SNES (which both use the same 'S-RGB A' chip), there are actually resistors in the PAL SNES Scart cable aswell, which would bring the component count on the RGB lines up to four.

So you could either have the 75ohm resistors to ground in the console, or if you are using a PAL SNES Scart cable leave them out as they will be in the cable already (Which is what Nintendo probably would have done given that this is a French N64 console and that the PAL SNES Scart cable was only released in France - this would have made it compatible with both consoles)

Next up was R41, R43 and R45 which are likely to be 39ohm resistors just like the PAL SNES.

Lastly are the capacitors C11, C12 and C13 which I think would be 47pf capacitors to ground, as these are the same value capacitors used on the S-Video and Composite lines of an NTSC N64.

So we have:-
Q1, Q2, Q3 = BQ14/2PB709AQ PNP Transistors
R42, R44, R46 = 75ohm Resistors
R41, R43, R45 = 39ohm Resistors
C11, C12, C13 = 47pf Capacitors

If im right that only leaves the R47 and D4 points left, which although are only for the +12v Scart Switching line would still be nice to have it working as intended.

D4 is a definitely a Zener Diode (by the symbol printed on the board) but does anybody have any idea what sort of Zener Diode should be used in this instance? (What Voltage/Wattage?) Given that its on the +12v line after a resistor.

[Tiido Priimägi]

The BQ transistor can be replaced by LY transistor, in my 2 SFCs, these transistors are randlomly used... one has a BQ in one spot, other has LY there...

[Link83]

The BQ transistor can be replaced by LY transistor, in my 2 SFCs, these transistors are randlomly used... one has a BQ in one spot, other has LY there...

Thanks for the info  Can I just ask if both SFC's use the 'S-RGB A' chip? Also are there any numbers after LY?

[Tiido Priimägi]

Only LY is marked on them, no numbers or anything else. There is no "S-RGB A" chip, only other video related chip than PPUs is BA6592F (on my EU SNES it is "S-ENC" chip).

[phreak97]

do any ntsc snes consoles have this s-rgb chip? i think it's only the pal snes that has the crappy coating on the back that makes tracing hard.. or have we already sussed the snes layout? ill admit i skipped a few posts in this thread.

i have two us snes's, a sfc, and two pal snes's.. would any of these be useful? (pretty sure none are the newer 1cpu versions though) i've got a bunch of pal n64's too but im sure theyd all be (eur) models (2 black, 2 fruity, 1 pokemon)

has anyone checked what's in a gamecube? theres a high chance it would be different, but it's worth ruling out just to be sure, right?

also on a related topic, i'm going to start using rgb on my snes consoles.. i have all three region consoles (as said above), what cap/resistor combinations should i use for the rgb cable for each one?

[Link83]

do any ntsc snes consoles have this s-rgb chip? i think it's only the pal snes that has the crappy coating on the back that makes tracing hard.. or have we already sussed the snes layout? ill admit i skipped a few posts in this thread.

Yes some later NTSC SNES consoles have the S-RGB chip, and we havent 'properly' sussed out the PAL SNES layout yet - although I hope to look into it more soon. I mainly havent done it as I hate that brown/green coating the PAL SNES has aswell Makes it a nightmare to map it out.

i have two us snes's, a sfc, and two pal snes's.. would any of these be useful? (pretty sure none are the newer 1cpu versions though) i've got a bunch of pal n64's too but im sure theyd all be (eur) models (2 black, 2 fruity, 1 pokemon)

I think only the SNES2/SNESJr had the combined CPU/PPU's in NTSC markets, but the S-RGB chip was introduced long before that happened (Besides, the SNES2/SNESJr consoles would be useless for our purpose as they are missing S-Video and RGB entirely, even though the S-RGB chip supports them!)

The PAL SNES's probably wont be too much good as although they may have the chip the layout is quite difficult to trace (I actually have a PAL SNES with the S-RGB chip and am hoping to 'try' and trace out the circuit some more when I can get to it and have time)

However if you dont mind taking a look in your NTSC SNES/SFC's and seeing if they have the S-RGB chip it would be greatly appreciated  I think the board revision where it was first introduced was labelled "SNS-CPU-RGB-01" and I have managed to find a pic of the top side here:-
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:SNES-CPU-RGB01_01.jpg
However we really need a picture/scan of the bottom to see the RGB components.

This may be a good time to mention my 'console motherboard wiki idea  :-
http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3495
I think it would be invaluable if only somebody would be willing to set it up 

has anyone checked what's in a gamecube? theres a high chance it would be different, but it's worth ruling out just to be sure, right?

Yes, I have checked the DAC in the Gamecube - it is a very different beast! Apparently it convert digital YCrCb data (not digital RGB data like the N64 had) into Composite and S-Video.  It also converts digital sound data to analogue sound aswell, whereas the N64 and SNES had a separate DAC for sound.

also on a related topic, i'm going to start using rgb on my snes consoles.. i have all three region consoles (as said above), what cap/resistor combinations should i use for the rgb cable for each one?

I actually just updated the Wiki yesterday with some additional information on this, I hope it helps:-
http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:nintendomultiav

Although please note that it actually also depends on the revision of PAL SNES as to weather you really need the resistors or not.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<EDIT - JUST A LITTLE ADDITION>
I have had a few thoughts about this circuit on the French N64, and have been looking at the PAL and NTSC SNES for inspiration/information. Nintendo purposefully made the RGB output circuitry different between the NTSC and PAL SNES consoles, and I can only think of two plausible reasons for them doing this:-

1)To prevent people buying import RGB cables? Seems abit daft I know, as they didnt even release an RGB cable in every region, and Japanese and Euro Scarts are differently wired anyway (and the US dont even use Scart) so I dont know how that could have worked.

2)The previous SNES RGB encoder - 'BA6592F' for NTSC consoles, and 'S-ENC' for PAL consoles - likely did have different video output levels - so when it came time to change the RGB encoder to one that could be switched for both NTSC and PAL encoding (The' S-RGB' chip) Nintendo had to maintain compatability with the Scart/RGB cables they had made previously, and so had to make the output components different so that they would stilll work correctly with each regions cable (Even though the actual output from the S-RGB chip for each region was exactly the same)

...the only thing stopping this theory for me is that I 'think' the old SNES encoders (on PAL and NTSC consoles) didnt even output the RGB, so the RGB ouput couldnt have been different(?) The old encoder chips only function seems to have been to 'make' the S-Video and Composite video signals from the RGB output by PPU2. The RGB signals then seem to go off into some transistors/resistors which likely form an RGB amp(?)
The 'S-RGB' chip is totally different and does output the RGB, and amplifies it aswell.

Really I think if Nintendo had wanted the RGB output to be the same for all regions they could have easily done so.

....I am beginning to think that the little circuit on this French N64 was only there in order to maintain 'backward compatabilty' with the French SNES Scart cable.

I would love to see what SMT components the NTSC SNES consoles with the 'S-RGB' chip used 

[DarthCloud]

Sorry to bright up an old topic, but I just found an original NTSC-US SNES with the latest motherboard revision (before redesign) which have the S-RGB chip and RGB circuitry (1995 SNS-CPU-RGB-02), I tryed it with my xrgb3 and the rgb picture is the same as another snes I have which have the old s-enc chip (1993 SNS-CPUGPM-02).

Will trace the exact video circuit this week-end when I got some time.

[Link83]

Sorry to bright up an old topic, but I just found an original NTSC-US SNES with the latest motherboard revision (before redesign) which have the S-RGB chip and RGB circuitry (1995 SNS-CPU-RGB-02), I tryed it with my xrgb3 and the rgb picture is the same as another snes I have which have the old s-enc chip (1993 SNS-CPUGPM-02).

Will trace the exact video circuit this week-end when I got some time.

Hi DarthCloud, that would be really great if you could trace out the circuit - it would help confirm for certain the exact video components needed for both this French N64 and the SNES 2 as they both use the same 'S-RGB A' chip. If you can it would be great to get the full video circuit mapped out including C-Sync, S-Video and RGB, as both consoles are missing all these outputs.

I actually made an info request for this exact information in April, here the thread:-
http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3636
No one replied but perhaps my 'guessed schematic' can help you?
(I wish Nintendo had not changed all the video components in the PAL consoles  )

Also, I was unaware there was an SNS-CPU-RGB-02 revision - I had assumed it jumped from SNS-CPU-RGB-01 to SNS-CPU-1CHIP-01 but I guess thats not the case. If at all possible I would love to see some pictures of both side of the board  

Thanks in advance  

[DarthCloud]

I din't got much time to trace all line I've just done the line between S-RGB A and S-PPU2.

By the way anyone know a good solvent which is electronic friendly and that could remove the mask they put on the back of the board. That's a pain to guest where the trace go....

Some pics of the board:

[rocco]

I think someone already did this mod. You can find it here:

http://free-for-all.ath.cx/daten/n64rgbmod.html

Under section 3 everything is listed that needs to put on the pcb in order to get RGB:

- R42, R44, R46 = Resistors 75Ohm
- R41, R43, R45 = Resistors 39Ohm
- R47 = Resistors 10k Ohm
- C11, C12, C13 = Capacitors 47pF
- Q1, Q2, Q3 = Transistor Stempel BC, Typ 818-16, SOT23, Base N, NPN, 25V, 0.5A, hfe 100-250
- D4 = Z-Diode 12V

You can even find a video of this mod on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6CtikyLyRo

Hope this helps,
rocco

[MKL]

By the way anyone know a good solvent which is electronic friendly and that could remove the mask they put on the back of the board. That's a pain to guest where the trace go....

If it only were that easy... The problem is that the ground plane is external on the back of the board and the traces are internal so even if you scrape off the solder mask (the green coating) you'll find a solid copper layer (the ground plane) that will make it impossible to see the traces.

[Link83]

I think someone already did this mod. You can find it here:

http://free-for-all.ath.cx/daten/n64rgbmod.html

Under section 3 everything is listed that needs to put on the pcb in order to get RGB:

- R42, R44, R46 = Resistors 75Ohm
- R41, R43, R45 = Resistors 39Ohm
- R47 = Resistors 10k Ohm
- C11, C12, C13 = Capacitors 47pF
- Q1, Q2, Q3 = Transistor Stempel BC, Typ 818-16, SOT23, Base N, NPN, 25V, 0.5A, hfe 100-250
- D4 = Z-Diode 12V

You can even find a video of this mod on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6CtikyLyRo

Hope this helps,
rocco

Actually, that entire components listing is parts that I suggested the missing components 'could be' further up this page - which I now know to be wrong   After mapping out my PAL SNES some more I know what all the missing components should be, but the transistors are obsolete (They are not Philips transistors like I first thought but are actually made by Rohm) If anyones interested in the PAL video components I will try and clean up my scribbled down drawing which took hours to do thanks to that brown coating!

This French N64 uses the PAL video components layout for the 'S-RGB A' chip which is a much more complicated layout than the NTSC video components because Nintendo had to design it to be 'backwards compatible' with the PAL SNES video cables - so they had to design the video components backwards from the already released video cables, instead of forwards from the video chip like a normal design. Im almost positive the NTSC method wont use any transistors for the RGB lines which should make it a much simpler mod, and more 'accurate'  

Simply put, the originally planned video components for this French N64 were designed to work only with PAL SNES video cables  (Which use 75ohm resistors to ground) Its not the layout the 'S-RGB A' chips datasheet would have recommended, its what Nintendo had to do to maintain backwards compatibility with PAL video cables.

The NTSC method would be preferrable since it is the 'correct' method, its the layout the 'S-RGB A' chip was actually designed for, and is likely exactly what would have been recommended in the datasheet. It also means you could use 'standard' RGB cables with 220uF capacitors on R, G, B.

Also, I have just noticed on the page you linked to they have even copied the mock-up picture I made previously in this thread, to show what the missing components would look like if soldered into place!

I'm going to guess that the video they made of an RGB modded French N64 uses a standard RGB amp directly from the VDC-NUS chip, and that they didnt add the missing SMT components (At least I hope they didnt, as I now know that I was wrong - I did say the values were just guesses/assumptions!)

[rocco]

I think someone already did this mod. You can find it here:

http://free-for-all.ath.cx/daten/n64rgbmod.html

Under section 3 everything is listed that needs to put on the pcb in order to get RGB:

- R42, R44, R46 = Resistors 75Ohm
- R41, R43, R45 = Resistors 39Ohm
- R47 = Resistors 10k Ohm
- C11, C12, C13 = Capacitors 47pF
- Q1, Q2, Q3 = Transistor Stempel BC, Typ 818-16, SOT23, Base N, NPN, 25V, 0.5A, hfe 100-250
- D4 = Z-Diode 12V

You can even find a video of this mod on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6CtikyLyRo

Hope this helps,
rocco

Actually, that entire components listing is parts that I suggested the missing components 'could be' further up this page - which I now know to be wrong   After mapping out my PAL SNES some more I know what all the missing components should be, but the transistors are obsolete (They are not Philips transistors like I first thought but are actually made by Rohm) If anyones interested in the PAL video components I will try and clean up my scribbled down drawing which took hours to do thanks to that brown coating!

This French N64 uses the PAL video components layout for the 'S-RGB A' chip which is a much more complicated layout than the NTSC video components because Nintendo had to design it to be 'backwards compatible' with the PAL SNES video cables - they had to design the video components backwards from the already released video cables, instead of forwards from the video chip like a normal design. Im almost positive the NTSC method wont use any transistors for the RGB lines which should make it a much simpler mod, and more 'accurate'  

Simply put, the originally planned video components for this French N64 were designed to work only with PAL SNES video cables  (Which use 75ohm resistors to ground) Its not what the 'S-RGB A' chips datasheet would have recommended, its what Nintendo had to do to maintain backwards compatibility with PAL video cables.

The NTSC method would be preferrable since it is the 'correct' method, its the layout the 'S-RGB A' chip was actually designed for, and is likely exactly what would have been recommended in the datasheet. It also means you could use 'standard' RGB cables with 220uF capacitors on R, G, B.

Also, I have just noticed on the page you linked to they have even copied the mock-up picture I made previously in this thread, to show what the missing components would look like if soldered into place!

I'm going to guess that the video they made of an RGB modded French N64 uses a standard RGB amp directly from the VDC-NUS chip, and that they didnt add the missing SMT components (At least I hope they didnt, as I now know that I was wrong - I did say the values were just guesses/assumptions!)

Ok, do you recommend to go with the known NTSC RGB mod including the amplifier instead on those early french models??

[Link83]

Ok, do you recommend to go with the known NTSC RGB mod including the amplifier instead on those early french models??

Well you can go that route, but it seems a bit of a waste given the fact this French N64 already has a video encoder chip that amplifies and outputs RGB - the 'S-RGB A' chip. I would first try the SNES 2/Jr RGB mod thats already in the Wiki here:-
http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:snes2rgb

Since that also uses the 'S-RGB A' chip aswell it should work when used with an RGB cable using 220uF capacitors. However, what im hoping is if DarthCloud can make a layout/schematic for the video components on this NTSC SNES then we should know 'for certain' what components and values we should be using for this French N64 and the SNES 2/Super Famicom Jr.

So, the way I see it, you have three choices:-
- Use an RGB amp directly from the 'VDC-NUS' chip
- Try the SNES 2/Jr RGB mod from the 'S-RGB A' chip
- Wait and see if DarthCloud has any success mapping out the video components so that we know for certain whats needed to perform the mod.

I hope that helps  

[DarthCloud]

Guest what I just finished the schem of the video circuit



So according to the SMD Book the Transsistor and Diode are:

FQ Transistor (Q1,Q2,Q3) = 2sa1037ak

BS Transistor (Q5) = 2sc2412k

P Dual Diode Array = dap202k

(All rohm part )

I didn't find the datasheet for M:U but it's obviously the same thing as "P" exept that instead of common anode like "P" it as commun cathode.

Also my multimeter do not measure caps, so the cap value are what I guessed it should be according to the N64 video circuit in the GamesX wiki (see N64 RGB Driver).

I should got a new multimeter soon so I will update the schem with accurate value later!

Hope this help SNES2 and french N64 owner

[Link83]

Excellent work DarthCloud!  

Looks a lot like how I thought it would, although i'm a bit surprised by the C-Sync line as I was expecting the 'S-RGB A' chip to output C-Sync on Pin 18 (Although I guess it still could, but maybe not used by Nintendo - although thats a bit unlikely)
Would be great to get some accurate capacitors values though if possible  
I think way can safely say the main required component for RGB from the 'S-RGB A' chip is one 75ohm resistor in series on Red Green and Blue - and of course a standard NTSC RGB cable with 220uF capacitors aswell.

For anyone interested in understanding the remaining components after the 'S-RGB A' chip the diodes are for ESD (ElectroStatic Discharge) protection circuit (Thanks Viletim for that info) so they are not entirely necessary unless you plan on hot-swapping cables, or rubbing you feet on the carpet and touching the connectors! Also, the final small value capacitor to ground should be for EMI (ElectroMagnetic Inteference) like a ferrite bead, so it varies if its worth adding or not.

[DarthCloud]

I have made another compare between the two output using my xrgb3 and the rgb-02 have a lot of noise on the picture. However my other snes give me a very sharp picture. I didn't pay mush attention the first time i tried that snes since a was a bit far from the monitor but in the front of it it's looking very bad :S.

Don't know if I did something wrong while tracing the line :/

Link, let me know how it look like if you mod a snes 2 using this!

[Shadow_Zero]

Kudos for this topic! Very interesting to read! 
Is it verified that all NUS-001(FRA) N64's do not support s-video?

Also, I have just noticed on the page you linked to they have even copied the mock-up picture I made previously in this thread, to show what the missing components would look like if soldered into place!

Which pic is that exactly??

(sorry for the old bump)

EDIT: NUS-001(FRA) N64 does not (natively) support s-video.

[Shadow_Zero]

Ok, got my French RGB modded N64 for a while, and opened it up tonight. Unfortunately the downside of the board is covered with gue, so can't make up much there. But here's the info I have:

NUS-001(FRA)
NUP11779611
NUS-CPU(R)-01

"VDC-NUS A
BU9801F
729 186"

"S-RGB A
BA6596F
731 173"

1997 Nintendo

If pics for any database are needed, let me know.

S-video doesn't work out of the box. I would love to know if this can be modded?!

[Shadow_Zero]

I just noticed that on your picture of the motherboard there are two points labelled JP2 and JP3 which needs jumpers to complete the circuit. My guess is these are meant to be for S-Video output (Chromo and Luma) from the RGB-S chip. If you put a jumper there I think you will get S-Video output on this N64, but you may loose/mess up the RGB output as I know S-Video and RGB use the same Scart pins.

I think I followed the JP2 and JP3 when I completed the RGB circuit, and didn't have any relation to the video circuit, if I remember correctly. If you look at the av pinout, pin 7 and 8 are not connected to anything...

As you also said, it is interesting to note that Nintendo has removed the S-Video output on these French N64's - so actually you can only get RF/Composite out of the NUS-001(FRA) unless you RGB mod it. Obviously Nintendo were going to do what they did with the Gamecube and Wii and remove S-Video output, but have RGB Scart output instead.

I guess no s-video for the FRA N64. I checked mine and pin 7 and 8 of the av out are not connected either.

EDIT:
Unless it can be tapped from one of the video chips. You think I can follow DarthCloud's schematic and connect Y C on both sides?