Review: Mario Kart DS Online Play

[Lawrence]

MarioKart DS Online Review.

Discuss, if you wanna.

[Akir]

I know that this is a stupid question, but why don't you just be happy for once. this is still kinda expiramental. be glad a simple system like the DS is capable of doing this in the first place.

[Aidan]

The DS isn't a simple system. The original Gameboy was a simple system.
802.11b doesn't take lots of processor time, nor does talking TCP/IP. Heck, even microcontrollers running at a few MHz can handle TCP/IP and 802.11b.

What's "experimental" about remote multiplayer? It has been around for many many years now, so should be well understood. The fact it's delivered over 802.11b is not important.

[Lawrence]

Are you sure that was a question, akir?  You forgot the question mark at the end.  Then you spelled 'experimental wrong, and then...  and then...  Well, your post was more or less completely incorrect.  =P

And I really, really get pissed off when people tell (ask?) me to be happy.  I'm perfectly happy, dammit.  I am, however, of the opinion that 'good enough' isn't good enough.  If you stop pushing for better, if you stop demanding things to be amazing, then you deserve the crap that you get.

Nintendo didn't create Mario Kart from a vacuum, there's decades of precedents here.  They should have amazed us, but all they really did was make the same mistakes as everyone else.

[ManekiNeko]

Sorry, Lawrence, but Akir is right.  This is Nintendo's FIRST attempt at delivering an online service, on a handheld game system far less powerful than any of the currently supported consoles.  Of course it's going to be lacking when compared to better established online services like Xbox Live... Nintendo's starting at the bottom of the ladder, and it's going to take a while for them to catch up.

It's really fashionable to bash Nintendo, even when they're working hard to correct past mistakes, and even when they're trying to appease gamers who refuse to be satisfied by their products.  Trust me, I've seen it before.  You could tell someone about the coolest thing ever created, and if the word "Nintendo" is anywhere in the description, the average gamer will instinctionally dismiss it as "kiddie," along with whatever other bullshit insults people frequently use to denigrate the company.

I'm not going to ask you to be happy with Nintendo's Wi-Fi service... in fact, I agree that there's room for improvement.  However, I WILL tell you that you're being unreasonable, expecting an Xbox Live-quality experience from the first online game Nintendo has ever made.  These are Nintendo's first timid steps toward online functionality... those steps may be slow and awkward, but at least they're making an effort.  

When you take this into consideration, the limited features of the MKDS online service are entirely forgivable.  The core of the service- the gameplay- is solid, and that is what's most important at this early stage of development.  The bells and whistles can come later, and they almost certainly will.

JR

[Lawrence]

Maneki: Are you suggesting Nintendo's completely justified in not learning a single thing from the decades of online gaming that preceeded it?  That they can be excused for not hiring someone who knew what they were doing, or learning from the countless games that got it, if not right, a whole lot closer than Nintendo did?  They didn't create this game in a vacuum, there's precedent here!

It's this kind of thinking that holds us all back.  By your logic Nintendo should have created their own networking protocol, their own wireless adaptors, and hell, they should be writing their own language too.  English?  Pfft, that's for pussies.

Nintendo built their DS on the shoulders of the giants that came before them, to excuse them for stepping up to the plate and delivering a half-assed networked experience is foolish.  

And I'm sure you're not suggesting, even for a moment, that I'm anything less than a Nintendo fan.  My GC gets more play than my Xbox and PS2 combined.  My SNES pads whimper when I draw near, they know they're in for a thrashing.

Finally, your assertion that the core functionality is solid - that's an outright lie.  It's so damned hard to get a game going it's not even funny.  Four people from around the world have to coordinate their gaming offline (IRC, ICQ, whatever), and HOPE they can connect.  Most of the time, not some, but most of the time we have to attempt to connect three or more times.  And guess what?  There's no way to back out, so if we get 2/4 players linked up in the 120 seconds we are forced to wait, we have to power off to try again.

Solid my ass.  It's embarassing.

[nolanXL]

Lawrence is correct. There is no excuse for the shitty online service.

We should not have to lower our expectations. Xbox Live and Halo 2 matchmaking are the benchmark. If companies are not meeting or exceeding Microsoft's product, they're being half-assed, period-end.

Everyone can offer as many excuses for Nintendo as they want, but the fact of the matter is that they released a lemon. The matchmaking is broken, the service is slow and you can't even do battle modes and race all the tracks online. The core product is fragmented or broken online.

If Nintendo were a restaurant, no one would eat there. Their burger would be undercooked, the bun stale and served with no condiments. It's reasonable to complain. We paid good money for this, and there's no point in being an apologist. It's great that it will probably be better next time, but in the mean time we're stuck with something inedible.

[corpsicle]

But surely the software is the biggest fault here ? with no friend list, no choosing who to play with, no mixed friend/random mode, no backing out of a started game ... ?
Basicly, the only thing that is BROKEN is that its hard to get connections
every other flaw is merely a limitation of the functionality in the current software.
So there IS a good foundation, they screwed up with MK, it will be better in the future, so, the argument that the problems is because its nintendos first try at online gaming HOLDS UP ... =)
The sad part is that nintendo doesnt usually screw up, they have a reputation of releasing products that have been tested to death, so they in near perfect state when released.
I also think adding the features/rectifying the problems that have been mentioned, would have made the experience even LESS stable, which might be another reason to why they left alot of stuff out.
And besides, having people disconnecting on you in mid-game is fucking annoying =P, so not beeing able to back out, is a GOOD feature ( as long as theres a functioning conneciton system, which is lacking at the moment )

Im not saying this excuses Nintendo for releasing a rushed product, but i hope its close to the real explanation.
Which would in turn mean that its possible to rectify in future releases.

And please NFG, dont go all grammarpolice on me now, this is mostly cut/pasted from IRC. =)

[nolanXL]

It doesn't matter what the problem is. A Nintendo product was released and it doesn't live up to anyone's expectations. Saying that it's their first attempt doesn't excuse the fact, either.

Sony's first online game IIRC was SOCOM. And it was awesome. I'd play for hours and hours on end. The UI and matchmaking never once got in the way.

Live! was the same way. No problems with it.

I had an easier time connecting to a friend over dialup to play Warcraft, back in the day.

I also think adding the features/rectifying the problems that have been mentioned, would have made the experience even LESS stable, which might be another reason to why they left alot of stuff out.

Nintendo should have hired people who knew what they were doing. The whole thing reeks of amateur hour. Features shouldn't break things. They're also things we shouldn't have to be discussing and complaining about.

[kendrick]

Trying to keep it under 10,000 words for once... I think the best measurement of how well Mario Kart DS networking works is whether or not the kids are happy with it. Friend lists and WEP keys and long menu options are terrific if your average user age is 25 or so and has a ability to make use of that complexity. If Nintendo is still aiming for the 5-15 year-old crowd, are they going to be willing to put up with all the crap we say is missing?

Nobody is saying that gamers under 20 are stupid, and certainly I'm not saying that either. But I'm willing to put forward the argument that the networking features we're accustomed to seeing in sit-down console games would get in the way of their enjoyment of a portable networked game. Always remember that Nintendo is aiming for a much younger segment of gamers than their competitors, which is why they've been able to last as long as they have in the market. We hardcore, import-happy, solder-gun toting, mad collecting gamers are a very small minority, and maybe our judgement isn't representative.

-KKC, waffles. Yum yum.

[Lawrence]

kendrick makes some good points.  Corpsicle does too, except he's having a different argument than the rest of us, damned apologist.  

Here's the way I see it:

If you've got a game, and some menus allow you to make selections but not cancel or back out without powering off the system, you've basically screwed up.

And now, for some specific corps-bashing:

every other flaw is merely a limitation of the functionality in the current software.
So there IS a good foundation, they screwed up with MK, it will be better in the future, so, the argument that the problems is because its nintendos first try at online gaming HOLDS UP ... =)

Im not saying this excuses Nintendo for releasing a rushed product, but i hope its close to the real explanation.

So first you're making excuses for Nintendo, then you're saying it doesn't excuse them?  How does that work exactly?  I digress, that's not my point.  The simple fact is a lot of people are accepting a game which has a very substandard networking component because it's Nintendo's first try.  My point is that we shouldn't give Nintendo any extra credit for being incompetent or delivering half a product.

And besides, having people disconnecting on you in mid-game is fucking annoying =P, so not beeing able to back out, is a GOOD feature ( as long as theres a functioning conneciton system, which is lacking at the moment )

I'm talking about backing out of MENUS, not GAMES.

If you've got a game and you allow people to connect with other players, but don't allow them to reconnect when someone drops, add new players between rounds, or even communicate, in any way at all, then you've basically made a networking experience that sucks.

 

[ManekiNeko]

"Maneki: Are you suggesting Nintendo's completely justified in not learning a single thing from the decades of online gaming that preceeded it?"

I'm not 'suggesting' anything.  What I am saying, rather clearly, is that this is Nintendo's freshman effort, and that they are entitled to a few mistakes.

"That they can be excused for not hiring someone who knew what they were doing, or learning from the countless games that got it, if not right, a whole lot closer than Nintendo did?  They didn't create this game in a vacuum, there's precedent here!"

Yes, but there's no precedent for a Nintendo online service, or an online service for a handheld game system that's less powerful than any of the currently supported game consoles.  They can't just wave a magic wand and create the ultimate wi-fi service on their first try.

"Nintendo built their DS on the shoulders of the giants that came before them, to excuse them for stepping up to the plate and delivering a half-assed networked experience is foolish."

See, this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about when I say that Nintendo can do no right in the eyes of gamers.  They create an online service with limited features, and game players complain bitterly.  However, if they had included improved friend finding technology and chat features in MKDS, Nintendo would be hounded by Senator Liebermann and his cronies for making children vulnerable to online predators.  

Every step Nintendo makes is guaranteed to be on a landmine, because people just refuse to be satisfied.  They're facing the same kind of close-minded prejudice that Atari had in the 1990's... they're considered a relic from the past, and any attempts Nintendo makes to change that misconception are met with ridicule.  They can't win, because nobody will let them.

"Finally, your assertion that the core functionality is solid - that's an outright lie.  It's so damned hard to get a game going it's not even funny.  Four people from around the world have to coordinate their gaming offline (IRC, ICQ, whatever), and HOPE they can connect.  Most of the time, not some, but most of the time we have to attempt to connect three or more times.  And guess what?  There's no way to back out, so if we get 2/4 players linked up in the 120 seconds we are forced to wait, we have to power off to try again."

By core functionality, I'm referring to the actual races.  Yes, it can be trying to gather together three opponents.  However, when it finally happens and the race begins, it's an enjoyable experience.  There's so little lag in most cases that it feels like your opponents are in the same room with you, even when they're hundreds of miles away.  Considering the hardware limitations of the Nintendo DS and Nintendo's inexperience with online services, that's a major accomplishment.

"Solid my ass.  It's embarassing."

What's embarassing is people crying for blood when Nintendo gives them a FREE online service that doesn't meet with their every lofty expectation.  I'll say it again... give them time.  It'll get better.  If Metroid Prime: Hunters has many of the same problems as Mario Kart DS, then you can bitch.

JR

[Lawrence]

What I am saying, rather clearly, is that this is Nintendo's freshman effort, and that they are entitled to a few mistakes.

See, this is what I don't get.  To use NolanXL's analogy, if a new cook makes shitty food he shouldn't open a restaurant.  If we all started from zero when we tried new things, instead of building on what others have done, every one of us would be reinventing the wheel, discovering fire, and killing ourselves with chunks of radium 'cause we didn't learn about radioactivity.

See, this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about when I say that Nintendo can do no right in the eyes of gamers.

You follow up my critical review with comments like these and I can't help but believe you're talking about me, yet when I make mention of my Nintendo fanhood you completely ignore it.  Are you, or are you not, accusing me, specifically, of these things?  Put another way, don't you dare accuse me (or anyone for that matter) of falling into this phantom profile you've created unless you're prepared to back it up.  As it stands I'm of the opinion that you're a Nintendo apologist more than I'm a Nintendo basher.

What's embarassing is people crying for blood when Nintendo gives them a FREE online service that doesn't meet with their every lofty expectation. I'll say it again... give them time. It'll get better. If Metroid Prime: Hunters has many of the same problems as Mario Kart DS, then you can bitch.

To ramble on about the same damned thing, I don't get this attitude at all.  Why should Nintendo be forgiven?  What makes them special?  What on earth gives them the right to do things half-assed?  How can you justify one-way menus?  This isn't even a function of matchmaking or the game, it's a matter of not being able to back out of a button press without waiting two minutes (And then, likely, playing four races) or powering off the machine.  How can you excuse that?

[Aidan]

Yes, but there's no precedent for a Nintendo online service, or an online service for a handheld game system that's less powerful than any of the currently supported game consoles.  They can't just wave a magic wand and create the ultimate wi-fi service on their first try.

There may be no precedent for a Nintendo service, but there is a precedent in that multiplayer gaming is over ten years old. So, unfortunately for Nintendo, they're not entering a market where this is new. These are all things have been done many times before and Nintendo would have been wise to examine the market carefully first. The technology and platform used to deliver the experience is unimportant. The DS has plenty of power to provide this functionality - it doesn't take much to manage it.

Co-ordinating multiplayer when distance is involved has always been more difficult than when everyone's physically together. Providing some form of side channel for communications provides that co-ordination, even if it's just so you know that someone isn't ready. It's about providing reassurance to the end user, so that they feel that things are working correctly. If they feel frustration, then the game has to be so much better to keep them coming back.

Whilst there is little argument that the first version of something is unlikely to provide the best experience, it is unlikely that we as consumers ever see the first version. That would normally have disappeared in the lab.
 

[Guest_Blaine]

Wow, there's some verbose discussion going on here. I'll admit I skimmed so if someone made this point - sorry.

The problem as far as I'm concerned stems from Nintendo's attempt to protect kids from 'online predators'.

That's it really. Everything is anonymous, no form of communication or system to track users. All of the big problems can be summed up as such -

You're completely isolated from all other players. It's online play, by yourself.

 The opponents might as well be computer controlled. It's not a game that lends itself to free form playing where human intellect and ingenuity is vastly superior to AI.

That said, I'm a big fan of the game. I'm not a Mario Kart fan by any stretch, but I've enjoyed MK:DS more than any other version thus far. And for it's limitations, the online is at least there. Baby steps.

Online games need chat functions, even if they're pre-built "Good Luck!", "Want to restart?", "Let's Have A Race Match, Get.". Whatever. And they NEED to have a way to pick and choose opponents, such as buddy lists, 'create a room' with a password, etc. etc. etc.

The online aspect has good intentions, nerfed for the protection of a scant few kids who may or may not be targeted by 'online predators'.

Once again... The worst thing ever to happen to video games - kids.

[Vertigo]

If you've got a game, and some menus allow you to make selections but not cancel or back out without powering off the system, you've basically screwed up.

I hate HATE FUCKING HATE this. They did it most notably in some menus in F-Zero GX when you want to come out of a track and choose another boat but once you're in, you're in and can't go back further, and it drives me crazy. Nintendo in particular seem to be dropping their production values in recent years and it's got nothing to do with increased competition. Just because other people are getting better at things, doesn't mean that Nintendo has to forget about attention to detail.

And this isn't Nintendo's first attempt at a form of networking. They've done small-scale experiments before over the last 10 years with St Giga and Randnet and have given limited opportunities to system link Gamecubes, so someone in there must have worked out how to make things go properly by now and like others have said, the wireless gaming protocol and methods have been around for ages, surely Nintendo has the capital to employ a small team of people who know what they're doing, but apparently not. Is it that difficult to take an XBox apart, figure out how it works, how the service can be improved in a Nintendo way, stick a nice user-friendly menu on it and then go with it? Have they not play-tested these things? Did no one at Super Fucking Mario Club or Treehouse point out that it didn't fucking work properly if you wanted to do anything other than go forwards?

And Blaine, sorry I know this isn't your main point, but: society's increasingly over-protective knee-jerk "watch out for paedophiles" witch-hunt attitude is doing my head in, especially here in the UK where it's the big debate at the moment and 'sex offender' is being made synonymous with 'paedophile', which is plainly wrong. Yes, there are paedophiles around, not just on the internet but everywhere, but it's up to parents to decide what's suitable for their children and to keep an eye on them. You can't even walk around in a park with a camera these days without some woman getting huffy and tutting at you, even if you're not pointing it anywhere near a child. Society seems to be taking responsibility away from parents and telling them it's ok to let your kids run riot and do whatever they want to while you sit and get fat and drunk every spare moment.
We see this sort of attitude when young teenagers are allowed to play GTA. Go and stand in a game shop and watch when kids and parents come in and see the games that parents buy for their children. I recently pointed out to a guy queueing at a till that he was buying his kid (who looked no older than 10) an 18-rated game and he just looked at me and said "yeh but it's only a game", so I asked him if he'd let that same child watch an 18-rated action movie or pornography and he gave me a funny look. I think I must have confused his tiny little brain. It didn't stop him buying the game and handing it immediately to his child once he'd paid.
If the people in charge think the best way to control wrongdoers is to deny people services or pleasure "just in case", we might as well vote Kim Jong-Il in as Prime Minister, send all children when they're born to enclosed secure schools and not release them into the wider world until they're 18, turn the Evening Standard into the nation's official news resource and be done with it.